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zeitgeist

Carlos E. R.-3
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A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.

The description says:


+++···················
zeitgeist - Zeitgeist Engine

Zeitgeist is a service that logs the users activity. The log can be
queried and managed in various ways over a DBus API. This is the Zeitgeist
backend engine.
···················++-

Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

And why now?


I have also seen threads in Ubuntu asking about it:

<http://askubuntu.com/questions/45548/disabling-zeitgeist>


- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
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Re: zeitgeist

Malcolm-31
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200 (CEST)
"Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
> A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.
>
> The description says:
>
>
> +++···················
> zeitgeist - Zeitgeist Engine
>
> Zeitgeist is a service that logs the users activity. The log can be
> queried and managed in various ways over a DBus API. This is the
> Zeitgeist backend engine.
> ···················++-
>
> Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?
>
> And why now?
>
>
> I have also seen threads in Ubuntu asking about it:
>
> <http://askubuntu.com/questions/45548/disabling-zeitgeist>
>
>
> - --
> Cheers,
>         Carlos E. R.
Hi
You must have installed something that needs it.....?

https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist

I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.

--
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openSUSE 12.1 (x86_64) Kernel 3.1.10-1.13-desktop
up 8:52, 3 users, load average: 0.08, 0.07, 0.05
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Re: zeitgeist

Jim Henderson-4
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?

https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist

Not a keylogger, an activity logger.

Jim

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Re: zeitgeist

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Malcolm-31
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On 2012-06-25 01:25, Malcolm wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200 (CEST) "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
>>
>>
>> A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.

> You must have installed something that needs it.....?

No, I removed it in the YOU screen that had selected it, and nothing
complained that it was a dependency.

> https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist

That page says nothing, only development links. But it contains a link to
<https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist> which says:

+++·················
Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users's activities and events
(files opened, websites visites, conversations held with other people,
etc.) and makes relevant information available to other applications. It
is able to establish relationships between items based on similarity and
usage patterns.
·················++-

This is intrusive to me, dangerous to have it stored centrally and
accessible by software.

And, perhaps, may be used by this one:

+++·················
GNOME Activity Journal (formerly known as GNOME Zeitgeist) is a tool for
easily browsing and finding files on your computer. It keeps a
chronological journal of all file activity and supports tagging and
establishing relationships between groups of files.
·················++-


> I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.

watch out...


- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

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Re: zeitgeist

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Jim Henderson-4
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On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in
>> Linux?
>
> https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist
>
> Not a keylogger, an activity logger.

I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this
thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.


- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

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Re: zeitgeist

jdebert
On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in
>>> Linux?
>
>> https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist
>
>> Not a keylogger, an activity logger.
>
> I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this
> thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.
>

It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with
no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information
about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done.
The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this,
sh--erm, stuff.

I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and
packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away.
Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

jd
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Re: zeitgeist

Jon Cosby-3
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
 On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:48:47 +0200, "Carlos E. R."
 <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this
> thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU)
> update.
>
>

 What does an rpm query reveal?

 rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist


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Re: zeitgeist

Malcolm-31
In reply to this post by Malcolm-31
On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:47:24 +0200
"Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> > I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.
>
> watch out...
>
Why? Maybe you need to look at another desktop?

--
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SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 3.0.31-0.9-default
up 0:59, 3 users, load average: 0.30, 0.36, 0.39
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Re: zeitgeist

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2012-06-25 04:20, Malcolm wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:47:24 +0200 "Carlos E. R." <> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.
>>
>> watch out...
>>
> Why? Maybe you need to look at another desktop?

Oh, I did that already, time ago. I say it for you :-p

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

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Re: zeitgeist

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by jdebert
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On 2012-06-25 03:47, j debert wrote:
> On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:


> It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with
> no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information
> about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just
> done. The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this,
> sh--erm, stuff.

That's why I'm worried. There is no information here, and very little
information upstream. Smells bad, even if it is bona fides. Yes, I have
the paranoid hat on tonight.

These things have to be carefully explained to avoid rising suspicions,
including how to opt out.

> I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and
> packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away.
> Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

Perhaps...

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)


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Re: zeitgeist

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Jon Cosby-3
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On 2012-06-25 03:54, Jon Cosby wrote:

> rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist

Elanor:~ # rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist
no package requires zeitgeist


It is not a hard requirement, or YOU would not have allowed me to remove
it that easily.

It appears in the yast log, but I don't know what that means.


> 2012-06-25 00:52:31 <1> Elanor(26710) [zypp]
> SATResolver.cc(setLocks):1410 Keep NOT installed name pattern:office
> (US_u_(5462)pattern:office-12.1-25.19.1.x86_64(openSUSE-12.1-12.1-1.4))
>
>
2012-06-25 00:52:31 <1> Elanor(26710) [zypp] SATResolver.cc(setLocks):1410
Keep NOT installed name oxygen-icon-theme-large
(U__u_(20392)oxygen-icon-theme-large-4.7.2-3.2.1.noarch(repo-oss))

> 2012-06-25 00:52:31 <1> Elanor(26710) [zypp]
> SATResolver.cc(setLocks):1410 Keep NOT installed name zeitgeist
> (U__u_r(21823)zeitgeist-0.8.2-2.1.3.noarch(repo-oss)) 2012-06-25
> 00:52:31 <1> Elanor(26710) [zypp] SATResolver.cc(setLocks):1410 Keep
> NOT installed name patch:openSUSE-2012-335
> (UB_u_(36354)patch:openSUSE-2012-335-1.noarch(repo-update))
>
> 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv]
> PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 job: weak erase oxygen-icon-theme-large
> 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv]
> PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101  - job Rule #95034: 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1>
> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101
> !oxygen-icon-theme-large-4.7.2-3.2.1.noarch [20392] (w1) 2012-06-25
> 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101     next
> rules: 0 0 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv]
> PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 job: weak erase zeitgeist 2012-06-25 00:52:32
> <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101  - job Rule
> #95035: 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv]
> PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101     !zeitgeist-0.8.2-2.1.3.noarch [21823]
> (w1) 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv]
> PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101     next rules: 0 0 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1>
> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101 job: weak erase
> patch:openSUSE-2012-335 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710)
> [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101  - job Rule #95036: 2012-06-25
> 00:52:32 <1> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101
> !patch:openSUSE-2012-335-1.noarch [36354] (w1) 2012-06-25 00:52:32 <1>
> Elanor(26710) [libsolv] PoolImpl.cc(logSat):101     next rules: 0 0


- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)


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Re: zeitgeist

Anders Johansson-9
In reply to this post by jdebert
On Sunday 24 June 2012 18:47:26 j debert wrote:

> On 06/24/2012 04:48 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > On 2012-06-25 01:27, Jim Henderson wrote:
> >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> >>> Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in
> >>> Linux?
> >>
> >> https://launchpad.net/zeitgeist
> >>
> >> Not a keylogger, an activity logger.
> >
> > I don't have the things clear. Very little documentation on what this
> > thing does and why it wants to install automatically by an (YOU) update.
>
> It is interesting that such things keep being installed quietly, with
> no notice, no opt-out and by default, with little or no information
> about them. There's not even a justification for this; it's just done.
> The least they could do is tell us why they think we want this,
> sh--erm, stuff.
>
> I think that perhaps the days of trusting Linux based systems and
> packages like OpenSuSE regarding privacy and security are going away.
> Safer not to trust them no matter how inconvenient it becomes.

Sanity time:

I'm no big fan of zeitgeist, I think it is a silly way of working, but there
are no privacy or security implications here. There is nothing stored in
zeitgeist that isn't already stored in your home directory (which is also
where the zeitgeist data gets stored)

Your browser maintains a history, has done for several decades. Your office-
type apps maintain history, which is how they can list stuff under "recent
documents". Your chat programs keep logs. Every shell command you type gets
stored in the shell's history, which is how things like arrow-up works

You can set your browser to private browsing in recent versions, and you can
set most chat clients to not log. I don't know about office programs, I've
never seen an option to not store "recent document" type info. If you don't do
this already, your home directory is already filled with information about
what you do. If you do do this, it also won't get stored in zeitgeist.

The whole point of zeitgeist is that you can tell what you were doing, say,
last tuesday, and see the documents you were working on, and open them up
again and pick up where you left off. I don't personally think that is
terribly useful, but it is no more of a privacy concern than any other program
on any other operating system that has ever come up with the idea that it
could be a good idea to log stuff.

Privacy and security concerns come when data gets uploaded to other machines.
That is not happening here. This is just another goofy idea by gnome
developers about how they think people should work

Anders
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Re: zeitgeist

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
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On 2012-06-25 04:46, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2012-06-25 03:54, Jon Cosby wrote:
>
>> rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist
>
> Elanor:~ # rpm -q --whatrequires zeitgeist no package requires
> zeitgeist
>
>
> It is not a hard requirement, or YOU would not have allowed me to
> remove it that easily.

I find it in /var/cache/zypp/raw/repo-update/repodata/...-primary.xml.gz:

<package type="rpm">
  <name>rhythmbox</name>
  <arch>i586</arch>
  <version epoch="0" ver="0.13.3" rel="17.4.1"/>
  <checksum type="sha256"
pkgid="YES">a4855e8a15e19f59e739d348dc5d2d81c041a73c26c892561b555fd4a14db481</checksum>
  <summary>GNOME Music Management Application</summary>
  <description>Music Management application with support for ripping
audio-CD's,
playback of Ogg Vorbis and MP3 and burning of CD-ROMs.</description>
  <packager>http://bugs.opensuse.org</packager>
  <url>http://www.gnome.org/projects/rhythmbox/</url>
  <time file="1340009004" build="1339489677"/>
  <size package="1539003" installed="5121712" archive="5185884"/>
<location href="i586/rhythmbox-0.13.3-17.4.1.i586.rpm"/>

...

    <rpm:recommends>
      <rpm:entry name="rhythmbox-lang"/>
      <rpm:entry name="media-player-info"/>
      <rpm:entry name="python-coherence"/>
      <rpm:entry name="zeitgeist"/>
      <rpm:entry name="python-Mako"/>
      <rpm:entry name="libwebkitgtk-3_0-0"/>
    </rpm:recommends>
    <file>/usr/bin/rhythmbox</file>


So, package rhythmbox recomends it, and that package was installed today
according to the history file  :-(

2012-06-25
01:08:20|install|rhythmbox|0.13.3-17.4.1|x86_64||repo-update|d1fc2f3ae31cd5dd8ceaf5dffdb82bab2d8250bacb05ac4b07935b7bde9b253e


- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)


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Re: zeitgeist

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
On 2012/06/25 01:16 (GMT+0200) Carlos E. R. composed:

> A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.

I found it installed on several systems lately, even though the only Gnome on
my systems is whatever Mozillas require. These may be systems upgraded from
before I started doing only minimal installs, putting solver.onlyRequires =
true in zypp.conf, setting locks liberally, and only using zypper to install
anything.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: zeitgeist

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Anders Johansson-9
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On 2012-06-25 05:01, Anders Johansson wrote:

> Sanity time:
>
> I'm no big fan of zeitgeist, I think it is a silly way of working, but
> there are no privacy or security implications here. There is nothing
> stored in zeitgeist that isn't already stored in your home directory
> (which is also where the zeitgeist data gets stored)
>
> Your browser maintains a history, has done for several decades. Your
> office- type apps maintain history, which is how they can list stuff
> under "recent documents". Your chat programs keep logs. Every shell
> command you type gets stored in the shell's history, which is how
> things like arrow-up works
>
> You can set your browser to private browsing in recent versions, and
> you can set most chat clients to not log. I don't know about office
> programs, I've never seen an option to not store "recent document"
> type info. If you don't do this already, your home directory is
> already filled with information about what you do. If you do do this,
> it also won't get stored in zeitgeist.
>
> The whole point of zeitgeist is that you can tell what you were doing,
> say, last tuesday, and see the documents you were working on, and open
> them up again and pick up where you left off. I don't personally think
> that is terribly useful, but it is no more of a privacy concern than
> any other program on any other operating system that has ever come up
> with the idea that it could be a good idea to log stuff.

This is a more reasonable explanation than what their own documentation
on the sites say, thanks. However, the little I found says that it also
keeps tracks of conversations - it is on the excerpt I copied on a
previous post:

+++·················
Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users's activities and events
(files opened, websites visites, conversations held with other people,
etc.) and makes relevant information available to other applications. It
is able to establish relationships between items based on similarity and
usage patterns.
·················++-

> Privacy and security concerns come when data gets uploaded to other
> machines. That is not happening here. This is just another goofy idea
> by gnome developers about how they think people should work

Well, it concentrates information that can be queried from a service that
is running, and thus, perhaps breakable remotely.

And I was not asked prior to installing it, I just happened to read the
description and it raised a warning flag. That's my concern. It is
suspicious.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)

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Re: zeitgeist

Anders Johansson-9
On Monday 25 June 2012 05:14:40 Carlos E. R. wrote:
> This is a more reasonable explanation than what their own documentation
> on the sites say, thanks. However, the little I found says that it also
> keeps tracks of conversations - it is on the excerpt I copied on a
> previous post:

I mentioned that. Chat programs keep logs. If you use kopete or pidgin and
don't disable logging, everything you have ever said or anyone has ever said
to you is stored in a text file in your home directory

>
> +++·················
> Zeitgeist is a service which logs the users's activities and events
> (files opened, websites visites, conversations held with other people,
> etc.) and makes relevant information available to other applications. It
> is able to establish relationships between items based on similarity and
> usage patterns.
> ·················++-
>
> > Privacy and security concerns come when data gets uploaded to other
> > machines. That is not happening here. This is just another goofy idea
> > by gnome developers about how they think people should work
>
> Well, it concentrates information that can be queried from a service that
> is running, and thus, perhaps breakable remotely.

That is true for all other applications as well. Zeitgeist is a strictly local
service which you can use for your own productivity. This is why it was
developed by the gnome people

>
> And I was not asked prior to installing it, I just happened to read the
> description and it raised a warning flag. That's my concern. It is
> suspicious.

You were asked prior to installing it, which is how you found out that it was
about to be installed. If you used zypper from the command line, the
description isn't there that is true, but that is the price you pay for using
a command line client. The name of the package is there and you are asked to
confirm before installing anything.

In YaST you get a nice list of everything about to be installed and again, you
have to confirm (or at least click 'next') before it gets installed.

So when you say you weren't asked, what you really mean is you just click away
any and all questions and descriptions you see without looking, and then
complain afterwards that you didn't see it

But you didn't. You saw it, you had a chance to confirm it and you rejected
it. So even that is wrong. You're complaining that you didn't get a chance to
do something you did. That's just strange

Anders
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Re: zeitgeist

Oddball


Anders Johansson schreef:
> That is true for all other applications as well. Zeitgeist is a
> strictly local service which you can use for your own productivity.
> This is why it was developed by the gnome people
>>
>> Anders

It is not so strange these apps get developed at all.
With all one does on a pc or laptop these days, and it is not only work.
So before you know it, you get distracted, and if you work on an hourly
basis, and get paid well, you have to be responsible for the 'real time'
you worked on an application or something someone wants to have developed.
You know yourself how 'time flies' behind a pc..
This could be an easy way to track down what really happened, without
having to do it yourself.
My son, who works at an hourly basis, and at home of course, shortly ago
needed such an app, to calculate the minutes he had been working on
something, and separate f.i., research time from productive time.

And about being logged by the government, or spy agencies? that happens
anyway. They have their own 'echelon' and more secret other networks.
Just live. One can die every day, of any cause, so what does it matter?
Being afraid, this short time we are here is not very sane, but that is
only imho..  ;-)

We have pc's and software for our convenience also i presume.


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Have a nice time,

Oddball.

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Re: zeitgeist

Peter Maffter
In reply to this post by Malcolm-31


> Von: Malcolm <[hidden email]>

> An: [hidden email]
> CC:
> Gesendet: 1:25 Montag, 25.Juni 2012
> Betreff: [opensuse] Re: zeitgeist
>
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200 (CEST)
> "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
...
>>  zeitgeist - Zeitgeist Engine
>>
>>  Zeitgeist is a service that logs the users activity. The log can be
>>  queried and managed in various ways over a DBus API. This is the
>>  Zeitgeist backend engine.
>>  ···················++-
>>
>>  Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?
...
> You must have installed something that needs it.....?
>
> https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist
>
> I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.

There are dependencies in my case
 libqzeitgeist0 -> libphonon4 -> amarok,digikam, dolphin and a multitude of other dependencies
although the Zeitgeist Engine is not installed in my case.

So if I use amarok, digikam and many others I have to use libqzeitgeist0 ?
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Re: zeitgeist

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by Malcolm-31
On 25/06/12 09:25, Malcolm wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:16:02 +0200 (CEST)
> "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> A recent 12.1 update wants to install this.
>>
>> The description says:
>>
>>
>> +++···················
>> zeitgeist - Zeitgeist Engine
>>
>> Zeitgeist is a service that logs the users activity. The log can be
>> queried and managed in various ways over a DBus API. This is the
>> Zeitgeist backend engine.
>> ···················++-
>>
>> Log user activity? What for? That's intrusive. A key logger in Linux?
>>
>> And why now?
>>
>>
>> I have also seen threads in Ubuntu asking about it:
>>
>> <http://askubuntu.com/questions/45548/disabling-zeitgeist>
>>
>>
>> - --
>> Cheers,
>>          Carlos E. R.
> Hi
> You must have installed something that needs it.....?
>
> https://live.gnome.org/Zeitgeist
>
> I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.

Last night I installed 12.2 Beta 2 with KDE desktop and this "Ziegfeld
Follies" was installed by default.

I didn't ask for anything special to what I normally install  but there
it is zeitgeist v 0.9.0.1-1.1 (1.3MB big) sitting in my list of
installed software.

BC

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Re: zeitgeist

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by Malcolm-31
On 25/06/12 12:20, Malcolm wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Jun 2012 01:47:24 +0200
> "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>> I don't have it installed here or as an outstanding update.
>> watch out...
>>
> Why? Maybe you need to look at another desktop?

See my earlier response.

My system is a single user system - I am the Administrator, Chief
Honcho, the Godfather, the user, and sole owner of this system - and I
don't look at any other desktop but zeitgeist got installed last night
when my back was turned.

BC

--
Using openSUSE 12.2 x86_64 KDE 4.8.4 and kernel 3.4.3 on a system with-
AMD FX 8-core 3.6/4.2GHz processor
16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel Corsair "Vengeance" RAM
Gigabyte AMD3+ m/board; Gigabyte nVidia GTX550Ti 1GB DDR5 GPU

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