wiki redesign

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wiki redesign

Michael Vetter
Hello,

I like the new design of the opensuse website[1].

In my opinion the wiki should get adjusted to match it more.
In general I think our wiki doesn't look great but of course that is a
matter of taste.

I think the Funtoo[2] and Gentoo[3] wikis look nice and the design makes
them a bit more readable.

A similar design, all those round corner, code block, "flat design" (is
that what you call it?) look nice. Atop of it taking the colors from
[1] and it would look a lot prettier.

Just wanted to start this, let's see where it goes.

PS: I myself have no knowledge at all about MediaWiki theming :-)

1: https://www.opensuse.org/
2: http://www.funtoo.org/GNOME_First_Steps
3: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page
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Re: wiki redesign

Adam Spiers
Michael Vetter <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I like the new design of the opensuse website[1].
>
> In my opinion the wiki should get adjusted to match it more.
> In general I think our wiki doesn't look great but of course that is a
> matter of taste.
>
> I think the Funtoo[2] and Gentoo[3] wikis look nice and the design makes
> them a bit more readable.
>
> A similar design, all those round corner, code block, "flat design" (is
> that what you call it?) look nice. Atop of it taking the colors from
> [1] and it would look a lot prettier.
>
> Just wanted to start this, let's see where it goes.
>
> PS: I myself have no knowledge at all about MediaWiki theming :-)
>
> 1: https://www.opensuse.org/
> 2: http://www.funtoo.org/GNOME_First_Steps
> 3: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page

I think I more or less agree.  Our wiki doesn't look terrible, but I'm
sure that even with a few minor tweaks it could look a lot
friendlier.  For example:

  - The line spacing in the left nav bar looks too much.

  - There's a bug with indentation of TOCs, e.g. look at the bullets
    in the TOC here:

      https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_Tutorial

  - The default font is ugly, and too small.

All IMHO, of course, and I'm not a designer.
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Re: wiki redesign

Dave Howorth
Adam Spiers wrote:

> Michael Vetter <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I like the new design of the opensuse website[1].
>>
>> In my opinion the wiki should get adjusted to match it more.
>> In general I think our wiki doesn't look great but of course that is a
>> matter of taste.
>>
>> I think the Funtoo[2] and Gentoo[3] wikis look nice and the design makes
>> them a bit more readable.
>>
>> A similar design, all those round corner, code block, "flat design" (is
>> that what you call it?) look nice. Atop of it taking the colors from
>> [1] and it would look a lot prettier.
>>
>> Just wanted to start this, let's see where it goes.
>>
>> PS: I myself have no knowledge at all about MediaWiki theming :-)
>>
>> 1: https://www.opensuse.org/
>> 2: http://www.funtoo.org/GNOME_First_Steps
>> 3: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> I think I more or less agree.  Our wiki doesn't look terrible, but I'm
> sure that even with a few minor tweaks it could look a lot
> friendlier.  For example:
>
>   - The line spacing in the left nav bar looks too much.

As Michael said, it's a matter of opinion, but it looks fine to me.

>   - There's a bug with indentation of TOCs, e.g. look at the bullets
>     in the TOC here:

I don't see any problem and you don't describe the problem that you see,
so I, and presumably others, have no way to know whether there is a
problem or not.

>       https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_Tutorial
>
>   - The default font is ugly, and too small.

Unless I'm misreading the page, that's your browser's problem. The page
sets it to:

font:1em "Lucida Grande", Arial, "DejaVu Sans", Verdana, sans-serif;

I don't see any particular problems with any of those font suggestions
and the size is relative so is set by your browser's default. So if you
think it should be larger, edit your preferences! Ditto if there's some
problem rendering whichever of those fonts is chosen by your browser,
then check your display settings.

> All IMHO, of course, and I'm not a designer.

Ditto.
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Re: wiki redesign

Adam Spiers
Dave Howorth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Adam Spiers wrote:
> > Michael Vetter <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I like the new design of the opensuse website[1].
> >>
> >> In my opinion the wiki should get adjusted to match it more.
> >> In general I think our wiki doesn't look great but of course that is a
> >> matter of taste.
> >>
> >> I think the Funtoo[2] and Gentoo[3] wikis look nice and the design makes
> >> them a bit more readable.
> >>
> >> A similar design, all those round corner, code block, "flat design" (is
> >> that what you call it?) look nice. Atop of it taking the colors from
> >> [1] and it would look a lot prettier.
> >>
> >> Just wanted to start this, let's see where it goes.
> >>
> >> PS: I myself have no knowledge at all about MediaWiki theming :-)
> >>
> >> 1: https://www.opensuse.org/
> >> 2: http://www.funtoo.org/GNOME_First_Steps
> >> 3: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Main_Page
> >
> > I think I more or less agree.  Our wiki doesn't look terrible, but I'm
> > sure that even with a few minor tweaks it could look a lot
> > friendlier.  For example:
> >
> >   - The line spacing in the left nav bar looks too much.
>
> As Michael said, it's a matter of opinion

I also said that :-)

> but it looks fine to me.
>
> >   - There's a bug with indentation of TOCs, e.g. look at the bullets
> >     in the TOC here:
>
> I don't see any problem and you don't describe the problem that you see,
> so I, and presumably others, have no way to know whether there is a
> problem or not.

The bullets are outdented:

http://pasteboard.co/4C0qHcK.png

> >       https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Build_Service_Tutorial
> >
> >   - The default font is ugly, and too small.
>
> Unless I'm misreading the page, that's your browser's problem. The page
> sets it to:
>
> font:1em "Lucida Grande", Arial, "DejaVu Sans", Verdana, sans-serif;
>
> I don't see any particular problems with any of those font suggestions
> and the size is relative so is set by your browser's default. So if you
> think it should be larger, edit your preferences!

I'm talking relative size, not absolute size.  The font appears
smaller than most other sites.  If I increase it in my preferences,
then all other sites appear too big.  However I think I found the
reason why.  The 1em is fine, but it gets shrunk by a wrapper <div>
via line 133 of https://static.opensuse.org/themes/bento/css/base.css:

  .ui-oo-content-wrapper, .content-wrapper{font-size:0.8em;}

If I disable that then everything looks the same size as other sites.
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Re: wiki redesign

Felix Miata-3
Adam Spiers composed on 2015-12-16 11:10 (UTC):

> I'm talking relative size, not absolute size.  The font appears
> smaller than most other sites.  If I increase it in my preferences,
> then all other sites appear too big.  However I think I found the
> reason why.  The 1em is fine, but it gets shrunk by a wrapper <div>
> via line 133 of https://static.opensuse.org/themes/bento/css/base.css:

>   .ui-oo-content-wrapper, .content-wrapper{font-size:0.8em;}

> If I disable that then everything looks the same size as other sites.

If you're going to be fixing that stylesheet, please take it further than
that. small{font-size:10px;} needs to be removed entirely. On a high density
display, it probably works out to xxxtra-tiny. Here it works out to about 25%
of default. Line 1 needs color:#444; replaced with color:#000;. The input,
button, textarea, pre line needs #000 too, as does #breadcrump and I'm sure
others.

If you look at these

http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/novellbugs.css
http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusebase.css
http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusebs.css
http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusebugz.css
http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensuseforums.css
http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensuselists.css
http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusemb.css
http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusesw.css

you can see how I deal with openSUSE site problems in my browser, but they're
no help when I'm not at my own machine, besides being a lot of work to create
and maintain as site styles morph.
--
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: wiki redesign

PatrickD Garvey
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 4:04 AM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Adam Spiers composed on 2015-12-16 11:10 (UTC):
>
>> I'm talking relative size, not absolute size.  The font appears
>> smaller than most other sites.  If I increase it in my preferences,
>> then all other sites appear too big.  However I think I found the
>> reason why.  The 1em is fine, but it gets shrunk by a wrapper <div>
>> via line 133 of https://static.opensuse.org/themes/bento/css/base.css:
>
>>   .ui-oo-content-wrapper, .content-wrapper{font-size:0.8em;}
>
>> If I disable that then everything looks the same size as other sites.
>
> If you're going to be fixing that stylesheet, please take it further than
> that. small{font-size:10px;} needs to be removed entirely. On a high density
> display, it probably works out to xxxtra-tiny. Here it works out to about 25%
> of default. Line 1 needs color:#444; replaced with color:#000;. The input,
> button, textarea, pre line needs #000 too, as does #breadcrump and I'm sure
> others.
>
> If you look at these
>
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/novellbugs.css
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusebase.css
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusebs.css
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusebugz.css
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensuseforums.css
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensuselists.css
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusemb.css
> http://fm.no-ip.com/Css/Share/opensusesw.css
>
> you can see how I deal with openSUSE site problems in my browser, but they're
> no help when I'm not at my own machine, besides being a lot of work to create
> and maintain as site styles morph.
> --
> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

It appears that bugzilla.opensuse.org will accept reports against the
openSUSE.org product and the Wiki component. For example,
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=700065 "the wiki
produces invalid XHTML" has been reported and CONFIRMED.
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Re: wiki redesign

Felix Miata-3
PatrickD Garvey composed on 2015-12-16 20:10 (UTC-0800):

> It appears that bugzilla.opensuse.org will accept reports against the
> openSUSE.org product and the Wiki component.

Done 5+ years ago, and 5 years 7 days since last activity there from anyone
other than myself. :~(
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646418
--
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: wiki redesign

PatrickD Garvey
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:45 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
> PatrickD Garvey composed on 2015-12-16 20:10 (UTC-0800):
>
>> It appears that bugzilla.opensuse.org will accept reports against the
>> openSUSE.org product and the Wiki component.
>
> Done 5+ years ago, and 5 years 7 days since last activity there from anyone
> other than myself. :~(
> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646418

Thank you for furthering my education about how the openSUSE project
works. I hope I may venture a little further.

How does one tell who to contact concerning the issues you carefully
documented? You're right, Robert Lihm initially did some modification,
but how do we tell if we should contact him or someone else or even if
there is someone to contact concerning the css that controls the wiki?
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Re: wiki redesign

Felix Miata-3
PatrickD Garvey composed on 2015-12-17 15:28 (UTC-0800):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> PatrickD Garvey composed on 2015-12-16 20:10 (UTC-0800):

>>> It appears that bugzilla.opensuse.org will accept reports against the
>>> openSUSE.org product and the Wiki component.

>> Done 5+ years ago, and 5 years 7 days since last activity there from anyone
>> other than myself. :~(
>> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646418

> Thank you for furthering my education about how the openSUSE project
> works. I hope I may venture a little further.

> How does one tell who to contact concerning the issues you carefully
> documented? You're right, Robert Lihm initially did some modification,
> but how do we tell if we should contact him or someone else or even if
> there is someone to contact concerning the css that controls the wiki?

I probably have as many questions as you do. When I've tried to find out
Googling, I've learned little, and since the site's CSS is so weighty, it
would be beyond my capability to try to do anything about it myself beyond
the bug filing I've already done. Maybe a new thread on the opensuse-web
mailing list would produce some fruit. Why there are both opensuse-wiki and
opensuse-web lists is hard to fathom, as there is so little activity on either.

Another possibility is going through the admin@ mailing list, but that
usually if not always generates a bug in a separate tracker that seems
focused on web functionality rather than design. https://progress.opensuse.org/

Henne <[hidden email]> might know. He's been around as an admin as far
back as I can remember.

If I had to guess where openSUSE site styles originate I'd say they're likely
a hand-me-down from suse.com tweaked by interested members of the
opensuse-artwork team.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: wiki redesign

PatrickD Garvey
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:

> PatrickD Garvey composed on 2015-12-17 15:28 (UTC-0800):
>
>> Felix Miata wrote:
>
>>> PatrickD Garvey composed on 2015-12-16 20:10 (UTC-0800):
>
>>>> It appears that bugzilla.opensuse.org will accept reports against the
>>>> openSUSE.org product and the Wiki component.
>
>>> Done 5+ years ago, and 5 years 7 days since last activity there from anyone
>>> other than myself. :~(
>>> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=646418
>
>> Thank you for furthering my education about how the openSUSE project
>> works. I hope I may venture a little further.
>
>> How does one tell who to contact concerning the issues you carefully
>> documented? You're right, Robert Lihm initially did some modification,
>> but how do we tell if we should contact him or someone else or even if
>> there is someone to contact concerning the css that controls the wiki?
>
> I probably have as many questions as you do. When I've tried to find out
> Googling, I've learned little, and since the site's CSS is so weighty, it
> would be beyond my capability to try to do anything about it myself beyond
> the bug filing I've already done. Maybe a new thread on the opensuse-web
> mailing list would produce some fruit. Why there are both opensuse-wiki and
> opensuse-web lists is hard to fathom, as there is so little activity on either.
>

It seems to me opensuse-doc is also redundant with opensuse-web and
opensuse-wiki, but since no one seems to post about their authorial
work on any of them, I have to wonder where all the tech-writers for
openSUSE.org hangout; in some IRC channel? That would not benefit any
new members of the openSUSE Community who wish to transition to
helping, because non of those conversations are archived; unless I
just don't know where the archive is.

> Another possibility is going through the admin@ mailing list, but that
> usually if not always generates a bug in a separate tracker that seems
> focused on web functionality rather than design. https://progress.opensuse.org/
>
> Henne <[hidden email]> might know. He's been around as an admin as far
> back as I can remember.
>
> If I had to guess where openSUSE site styles originate I'd say they're likely
> a hand-me-down from suse.com tweaked by interested members of the
> opensuse-artwork team.

Well, I guess I'll return to trying to understand how the openSUSE
project works after I have read all the archives of openSUSE-doc as I
once set out to do.

Thanks for the discussion,
PatrickD
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