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systemd

Brian K. White
https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577

"I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."

Thank you. :)

Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of
the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is
doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

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Re: systemd

Bruce Ferrell
On 7/12/17 9:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>
> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>
> Thank you. :)
>
> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest
> of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why
> again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone
> else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?
>
...And to add to that:


  User=0day considered harmful in systemd



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Re: systemd

Brian K. White
On 7/12/2017 1:42 PM, Bruce Ferrell wrote:

> On 7/12/17 9:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:
>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>
>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>
>> Thank you. :)
>>
>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest
>> of the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why
>> again? What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone
>> else is doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?
>>
> ...And to add to that:
>
>
>  User=0day considered harmful in systemd

Yes that whole thing was perfect.

The bug itself is perfectly normal and forgivable.

The systemd developers response was a perfect example of what is so
unforgivable.

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Re: systemd

David C. Rankin
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:

> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>
> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>
> Thank you. :)
>
> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the
> herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard
> defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ?
> "It's cool and new." ?
>

You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch
out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:

http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918

Gotta like his style :)

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Re: systemd

Brian K. White
On 7/12/2017 7:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:

> On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:
>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>
>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>
>> Thank you. :)
>>
>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of the
>> herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again? What hard
>> defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing it." ?
>> "It's cool and new." ?
>>
>
> You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch
> out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:
>
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918
>
> Gotta like his style :)
>

That link doesn't work for me.

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Re: systemd

Basil Chupin-2
On 13/07/17 10:31, Brian K. White wrote:

> On 7/12/2017 7:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
>> On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:
>>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>>
>>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>>
>>> Thank you. :)
>>>
>>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the
>>> rest of the
>>> herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
>>> What hard
>>> defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing
>>> it." ?
>>> "It's cool and new." ?
>>>
>>
>> You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch
>> out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:
>>
>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918
>>
>> Gotta like his style :)
>>
>
> That link doesn't work for me.

Nor me.


BC

--
You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your
INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant.
                                                Harlan Ellison


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Re: systemd

ianseeks-4
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:

> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>
> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>
> Thank you. :)
>
> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of
> the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
> What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is
> doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?

Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless.
Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you.  You have choices, use
them.


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kwin 5.10.3
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Re: systemd

David C. Rankin
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
On 07/13/2017 01:17 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:

> On 13/07/17 10:31, Brian K. White wrote:
>> On 7/12/2017 7:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
>>> On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:
>>>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>>>
>>>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>>>
>>>> Thank you. :)
>>>>
>>>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the
>>>> rest of the
>>>> herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
>>>> What hard
>>>> defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing
>>>> it." ?
>>>> "It's cool and new." ?
>>>>
>>>
>>> You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch
>>> out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:
>>>
>>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918
>>>
>>> Gotta like his style :)
>>>
>>
>> That link doesn't work for me.
>
> Nor me.
>
>
> BC
>

Sorry guys,

  Seems the gmane.org site reminds us of the Achilles heel of the internet
(links don't stay working), this is the new location

https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/

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Re: systemd

Basil Chupin-2
On 13/07/17 17:44, David C. Rankin wrote:

> On 07/13/2017 01:17 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
>> On 13/07/17 10:31, Brian K. White wrote:
>>> On 7/12/2017 7:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
>>>> On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:
>>>>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>>>>
>>>>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the
>>>>> rest of the
>>>>> herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
>>>>> What hard
>>>>> defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing
>>>>> it." ?
>>>>> "It's cool and new." ?
>>>>>
>>>> You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch
>>>> out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:
>>>>
>>>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918
>>>>
>>>> Gotta like his style :)
>>>>
>>> That link doesn't work for me.
>> Nor me.
>>
>>
>> BC
>>
> Sorry guys,
>
>   Seems the gmane.org site reminds us of the Achilles heel of the internet
> (links don't stay working), this is the new location
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/

Thanks, David. Read what Linus wrote and agree with your comment re his
style :-).


BC

--
You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your
INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant.
                                                Harlan Ellison


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Re: systemd

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by ianseeks-4
On 13/07/17 16:26, ianseeks wrote:

> On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:
>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>
>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>
>> Thank you. :)
>>
>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of
>> the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
>> What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is
>> doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?
> Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless.
> Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you.  You have choices, use
> them.

The choice of moving to another "respectable" distro is rather limited
in my opinion, and I am not in any way contributing to a "flame war" as
I am indifferent to whether or not a distro uses systemd but simply
responding to your comment re choices. Have a read of this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd


BC

--
You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your
INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant.
                                                Harlan Ellison


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Re: systemd

ianseeks-4
On Thursday, 13 July 2017 10:18:16 BST Basil Chupin wrote:

> On 13/07/17 16:26, ianseeks wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:
> >> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
> >>
> >> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
> >>
> >> Thank you. :)
> >>
> >> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of
> >> the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
> >> What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is
> >> doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?
> >
> > Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless.
> > Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you.  You have choices, use
> > them.
>
> The choice of moving to another "respectable" distro is rather limited
> in my opinion, and I am not in any way contributing to a "flame war" as
> I am indifferent to whether or not a distro uses systemd but simply
> responding to your comment re choices. Have a read of this:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
>
>
> BC

Distros deemed respectable or not, there are choices and they need to add
devuan to that list as its not on the wiki.  
According to the wiki there seems to be more that can run without systemd than
not.


--
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Qt: 5.9.0
KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0
KDE Plasma: 5.10.3
kwin 5.10.3
kmail2 5.5.2
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Re: systemd

Brian K. White
In reply to this post by David C. Rankin
On 7/13/2017 3:44 AM, David C. Rankin wrote:

> On 07/13/2017 01:17 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
>> On 13/07/17 10:31, Brian K. White wrote:
>>> On 7/12/2017 7:56 PM, David C. Rankin wrote:
>>>> On 07/12/2017 11:58 AM, Brian K. White wrote:
>>>>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>>>>
>>>>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the
>>>>> rest of the
>>>>> herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
>>>>> What hard
>>>>> defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is doing
>>>>> it." ?
>>>>> "It's cool and new." ?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You have to take his advise to heart. When he really gets wound up watch
>>>> out..., e.g. old thoughts on C vs. C++ totally unleashing on a naysayer:
>>>>
>>>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/57918
>>>>
>>>> Gotta like his style :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> That link doesn't work for me.
>>
>> Nor me.
>>
>>
>> BC
>>
>
> Sorry guys,
>
>   Seems the gmane.org site reminds us of the Achilles heel of the internet
> (links don't stay working), this is the new location
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/
>

That is excellent. :)

I won't presume to say "he's right" because I am not qualified to say
such a thing in relation to someone of his calibre, on this and related
topics. But I can say I agree on all points.

I think Poettering might be quite smart, but there is a difference
between intelligence and wisdom. They often go together and overlap.
Intelligence does often produce more wisdom and faster, but they are
still distinct things, and you can actually have a lot of either one
without much of the other. If Poettering has a lot of intelligence, he
has only that, and no wisdom.

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Re: systemd

Brian K. White
In reply to this post by ianseeks-4
On 7/13/2017 2:26 AM, ianseeks wrote:

> On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:
>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>
>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>
>> Thank you. :)
>>
>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of
>> the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
>> What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is
>> doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?
>
> Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless.
> Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you.  You have choices, use
> them.

I reject the premise that the only rational response to defects is to
abandon everything rather than work to correct the defect.

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Re: systemd

Brian K. White
In reply to this post by ianseeks-4
On 7/13/2017 11:36 AM, ianseeks wrote:

> On Thursday, 13 July 2017 10:18:16 BST Basil Chupin wrote:
>> On 13/07/17 16:26, ianseeks wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:
>>>> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
>>>>
>>>> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
>>>>
>>>> Thank you. :)
>>>>
>>>> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of
>>>> the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
>>>> What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is
>>>> doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?
>>>
>>> Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless.
>>> Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you.  You have choices, use
>>> them.
>>
>> The choice of moving to another "respectable" distro is rather limited
>> in my opinion, and I am not in any way contributing to a "flame war" as
>> I am indifferent to whether or not a distro uses systemd but simply
>> responding to your comment re choices. Have a read of this:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd
>>
>>
>> BC
>
> Distros deemed respectable or not, there are choices and they need to add
> devuan to that list as its not on the wiki.
> According to the wiki there seems to be more that can run without systemd than
> not.

Actually, another choice is to improve the thing you are already
invested in, and anyone who doesn't like THAT, is free to choose
something else. You're right, there are choices!

What is so magical about your particular preferences that it's valid for
you to suggest someone else's only option is to get lost, but not the
other way around? I don't see any arguments based on technical merit.

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Re: systemd

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On 14/07/17 12:53 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
>
> I reject the premise that the only rational response to defects is to abandon
> everything rather than work to correct the defect.

A perfectly rational statement because the word "only" is there.

Sometimes the solution to a problem is to "do something else".
As I see Einstein being quoted as saying "We cannot solve our problems with the
same thinking we used when we created them."

As far as I can make out systemd does solve problems that are either insoluble
using SysVinit or are simply so rococo using SysVinit as to be unintelligible
and unmaintainable by us mere mortals.

However, many Linux user are not facing those problems.
And that, like hamlet said, is the rub.

As for 'wisdom', that seems to be a $10 word when what was really lacking was a
ten-cent word: TACT.

--
         A: Yes.
     >   Q: Are you sure?
     >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
     >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?


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Re: systemd

ianseeks-4
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On Friday, 14 July 2017 17:53:22 BST Brian K. White wrote:

> On 7/13/2017 2:26 AM, ianseeks wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 17:58:32 BST Brian K. White wrote:
> >> https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577
> >>
> >> "I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing."
> >>
> >> Thank you. :)
> >>
> >> Like we've said all along... opensuse leading the way behind the rest of
> >> the herd right over the same cliff as everyone else because...why again?
> >> What hard defensible reason? "RedHat is doing it." ? "Everyone else is
> >> doing it." ? "It's cool and new." ?
> >
> > Yawn.... Please don't try to start another flame war, they are pointless.
> > Use another distro then if opensuse is not for you.  You have choices, use
> > them.
>
> I reject the premise that the only rational response to defects is to
> abandon everything rather than work to correct the defect.

It is the only response if you want to refer to the whole of systemd as a
"defect", the decision was taken years ago and its in opensuse, like it or
not.  
If referring to bugs fixed in systemd then i agree, jumping ship is not really
clever.


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Re: systemd

Brian K. White
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
On 7/14/2017 1:09 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

> On 14/07/17 12:53 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
>>
>> I reject the premise that the only rational response to defects is to abandon
>> everything rather than work to correct the defect.
>
> A perfectly rational statement because the word "only" is there.
>
> Sometimes the solution to a problem is to "do something else".
> As I see Einstein being quoted as saying "We cannot solve our problems with the
> same thinking we used when we created them."
>
> As far as I can make out systemd does solve problems that are either insoluble
> using SysVinit or are simply so rococo using SysVinit as to be unintelligible
> and unmaintainable by us mere mortals.
>
> However, many Linux user are not facing those problems.
> And that, like hamlet said, is the rub.
>
> As for 'wisdom', that seems to be a $10 word when what was really lacking was a
> ten-cent word: TACT.
>

The idea of stagnation or inflexibility does not apply to basic
principles. If we decided 100, or 50,000 years ago that murder is wrong,
when does that idea expire?

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Re: systemd

Anton Aylward-2
On 14/07/17 01:43 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

> The idea of stagnation or inflexibility does not apply to basic principles. If
> we decided 100, or 50,000 years ago that murder is wrong, when does that idea
> expire?


There are quite a few direct and indirect logical fallacies there, quite apart
from it being a ridiculous counterargument.

It bring to mind this latest 'bon mot' by yet another politician:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jul/14/forcing-facebook-google-to-give-police-access-to-encrypted-messages-doesnt-add-up
<quote>
This situation led tech reporter Asha McLean from ZDnet to ask the prime
minister: “Won’t the laws of mathematics trump the laws of Australia? And then
aren’t you also forcing people onto decentralised systems as a result?”

To which Turnbull replied: “The laws of mathematics are very commendable, but
the only law that applies in Australia is the law of Australia.”

Just how the law of Australia will override mathematics is still unclear.
</quote>



--
         A: Yes.
     >   Q: Are you sure?
     >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
     >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?


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Re: systemd

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by ianseeks-4
On 14/07/17 01:29 PM, ianseeks wrote:
> If referring to bugs fixed in systemd then i agree, jumping ship is not really
> clever.

Indeed.
Expecting any software created by man, directly or indirectly, to be free of
bugs and errors, is the height of stupidity.

Having a regular and consistent architecture/design, as opposed to an ad-hoc
one, makes the errors easier to find (both by hackers and developers) and to
address.

Those of us who are old enough will remember the maintenance problems 'spaghetti
code' of the days before Edgar Dijkstra's "Go To Statement Considered Harmful"
and the problems doing development before Codd's advocacy of SQL.

Disciplined structure gives poser though focus.
An alternative would be converting cities and countryside to a paved expanse
where you could drive in any direction and any speed with no protocols
preventing you ... 'interacting' with other vehicles.

Hmm.  Yes, it seems that there are cities like that in some places in the world.
People do in fact choose to live there.

I'd rather not.  It's bad enough in North America.
http://www.investors.com/politics/perspective/gun-vs-traffic-accident-deaths-getting-the-data-straight/
http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016/01/18/news/guns-are-more-deadly-cars-21-us-states-how-does-canada-compare


--
         A: Yes.
     >   Q: Are you sure?
     >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
     >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?


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Re: systemd

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
Op vrijdag 14 juli 2017 19:09:31 CEST schreef Anton Aylward:

> On 14/07/17 12:53 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
> > I reject the premise that the only rational response to defects is to
> > abandon everything rather than work to correct the defect.
>
> A perfectly rational statement because the word "only" is there.
>
> Sometimes the solution to a problem is to "do something else".
> As I see Einstein being quoted as saying "We cannot solve our problems with
> the same thinking we used when we created them."
>
> As far as I can make out systemd does solve problems that are either
> insoluble using SysVinit or are simply so rococo using SysVinit as to be
> unintelligible and unmaintainable by us mere mortals.

Hear, hear. It's like Windows users sticking to XP and moaning that the latest
Office performs badly. Ooops.

Furthermore I'd like to state I'm not a friend of Lennart, never met him
actually, but that I do dislike the bashing of him. IMHO he's one of the FOSS
people that have dared to step up and do something. Which, IMNSHO deserves
respect.

>
> However, many Linux user are not facing those problems.
> And that, like hamlet said, is the rub.
>
> As for 'wisdom', that seems to be a $10 word when what was really lacking
> was a ten-cent word: TACT.
>
>      >   Q: Are you sure?
>      >  
>      >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
>      >>  
>      >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?


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Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht

openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team

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