systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

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systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Richard Brown
The [hidden email] is meant to be a support mailinglist for the
openSUSE distributions.

No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.

I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all
of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any
discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist
again.

Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues
are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest
removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported
init system for months.

Religious discussions about whether systemd is good, or bad, do not
help anyone. Take them off our support & development mailinglists.

Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my
recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the
people ignoring this request.
If this is anything more than 2 or 3 people, I will actually consider
recommending that the Board discuss removing this entire mailinglist,
because I am sick of having to explain to new community members that
[hidden email] was once a support mailinglist but no longer
serves that purpose effectively as it now has far, far too much
commentary & techno-nonsense religion discussions by people who love
to complain but not contribute.

So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I
will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list
do not make an effort to end it. Now.

Regards,
Richard Brown
openSUSE Chairman

On 16 July 2017 at 07:25, L A Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Anton Aylward wrote:
>>
>> I really really really think that you're being ridiculous.
>> There are always man pages available.
>> Even when I have no power and all my network is shut down and I don't have
>> my
>> laptop I can take my tablet across to the coffee shop and use the wifi
>> there to
>> read on-line man pages.
>>
>
> ----
>    If there is no power, how does your tablet work?  FWIW, I don't
> have a tablet.
>
>> What you are really saying here is that you expect to be able to deal with
>> these
>> problems by never having bothered to familiarise yourself with the
>> capabilities
>> when you do have an up and running system, read the man pages and the
>> on-line
>> how-to articles, keep a daybook where you note these things, try them out,
>> experiment and familiarise yourself with their workings.
>>
>
> ----
>    "when I have a up and running system" -- that's when things work.
> Every time I've tried anything associated with xD (=sysD from subj), I've
> never gotten to a working system.
>
>
>> Well, BtrFS is the FS that's the default setting in an out-of-the-box
>> instillation.
>>
>
> ---
>    If you installed when it was the default setting.  I didn't.
> When I installed my system there was no initrd.  Things booted
> from disk.
>
>
>> As for 'conservative', I beg to differ.
>> I'm a lot more conservative than you.  I run a very vanilla system, a
>> plain old
>> initrd.
>
> ---
>    That's not conservative -- that's modern/latest fad.  Systems booted
> from disk long before booting from an initrd.
>
>
>>  I don't install any of the features or modification that you have
>> discussed in the past.
>>
>
> ---
>    As I stated before.  My system has been configure when the current
> features were opensuse standard.  Even XFS was the suse standard FS
> when I installed it.  Initrd, btrfs, etc. All those are recent,
> bleeding edge innovations.  They are not well vetted or tested for
> my primary system.
>
>
>> The difference between us is that I'm obsessive about reading: tech
>> papers,
>> development notes, developers blogs, man pages, hot-to pages.  And I make
>> notes,
>> I keeps a daybook, I note ideas and the results of things I try out.
>>
>
> ---
>    I can't read my writing, not to mention I type faster than write.
> If it isn't in my computer, I won't find it.
>
>> Many of the things I try out result form matters discussed on this list,
>> which I
>> also read, excepting only matters that are so far away from anything I'm
>> running, things about, for example, KDE3.
>>
>
>    The things I try, there is usually no answer for.  Someone claimed
> xD used standard methods to talk between xD modules so it was "open".
>
>    I have tried running dbus on my desktop and on my server, and
> tried to get them to communicate -- turns out no one had ever bothered
> to put in networking -- it's speced for it, but no one ever implemented
> it.
>
>    I used shell-script files to patch something together that worked.
>
>    That's what I do on boot when something doesn't work -- if it is
> in an unfinished and non-standard tool (xD), then I can't expect to
> use it to get anything to work.  xD isn't stable and hasn't stabilized
> YET.  Each new release breaks more things.  I don't call using it
> on your primary systems "conservative".
>
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> To contact the owner, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Knurpht-openSUSE
Op zondag 16 juli 2017 10:47:54 CEST schreef Richard Brown:

> The [hidden email] is meant to be a support mailinglist for the
> openSUSE distributions.
>
> No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like
> it.
>
> I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all
> of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any
> discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist
> again.
>
> Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues
> are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest
> removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported
> init system for months.
>
> Religious discussions about whether systemd is good, or bad, do not
> help anyone. Take them off our support & development mailinglists.
>
> Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my
> recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the
> people ignoring this request.
> If this is anything more than 2 or 3 people, I will actually consider
> recommending that the Board discuss removing this entire mailinglist,
> because I am sick of having to explain to new community members that
> [hidden email] was once a support mailinglist but no longer
> serves that purpose effectively as it now has far, far too much
> commentary & techno-nonsense religion discussions by people who love
> to complain but not contribute.
>
> So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I
> will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list
> do not make an effort to end it. Now.
>
> Regards,
> Richard Brown
> openSUSE Chairman
>
> On 16 July 2017 at 07:25, L A Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Anton Aylward wrote:
> >> I really really really think that you're being ridiculous.
> >> There are always man pages available.
> >> Even when I have no power and all my network is shut down and I don't
> >> have
> >> my
> >> laptop I can take my tablet across to the coffee shop and use the wifi
> >> there to
> >> read on-line man pages.
> >
> > ----
> >
> >    If there is no power, how does your tablet work?  FWIW, I don't
> >
> > have a tablet.
> >
> >> What you are really saying here is that you expect to be able to deal
> >> with
> >> these
> >> problems by never having bothered to familiarise yourself with the
> >> capabilities
> >> when you do have an up and running system, read the man pages and the
> >> on-line
> >> how-to articles, keep a daybook where you note these things, try them
> >> out,
> >> experiment and familiarise yourself with their workings.
> >
> > ----
> >
> >    "when I have a up and running system" -- that's when things work.
> >
> > Every time I've tried anything associated with xD (=sysD from subj), I've
> > never gotten to a working system.
> >
> >> Well, BtrFS is the FS that's the default setting in an out-of-the-box
> >> instillation.
> >
> > ---
> >
> >    If you installed when it was the default setting.  I didn't.
> >
> > When I installed my system there was no initrd.  Things booted
> > from disk.
> >
> >> As for 'conservative', I beg to differ.
> >> I'm a lot more conservative than you.  I run a very vanilla system, a
> >> plain old
> >> initrd.
> >
> > ---
> >
> >    That's not conservative -- that's modern/latest fad.  Systems booted
> >
> > from disk long before booting from an initrd.
> >
> >>  I don't install any of the features or modification that you have
> >>
> >> discussed in the past.
> >
> > ---
> >
> >    As I stated before.  My system has been configure when the current
> >
> > features were opensuse standard.  Even XFS was the suse standard FS
> > when I installed it.  Initrd, btrfs, etc. All those are recent,
> > bleeding edge innovations.  They are not well vetted or tested for
> > my primary system.
> >
> >> The difference between us is that I'm obsessive about reading: tech
> >> papers,
> >> development notes, developers blogs, man pages, hot-to pages.  And I make
> >> notes,
> >> I keeps a daybook, I note ideas and the results of things I try out.
> >
> > ---
> >
> >    I can't read my writing, not to mention I type faster than write.
> >
> > If it isn't in my computer, I won't find it.
> >
> >> Many of the things I try out result form matters discussed on this list,
> >> which I
> >> also read, excepting only matters that are so far away from anything I'm
> >> running, things about, for example, KDE3.
> >>
> >    The things I try, there is usually no answer for.  Someone claimed
> >
> > xD used standard methods to talk between xD modules so it was "open".
> >
> >    I have tried running dbus on my desktop and on my server, and
> >
> > tried to get them to communicate -- turns out no one had ever bothered
> > to put in networking -- it's speced for it, but no one ever implemented
> > it.
> >
> >    I used shell-script files to patch something together that worked.
> >    
> >    That's what I do on boot when something doesn't work -- if it is
> >
> > in an unfinished and non-standard tool (xD), then I can't expect to
> > use it to get anything to work.  xD isn't stable and hasn't stabilized
> > YET.  Each new release breaks more things.  I don't call using it
> > on your primary systems "conservative".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > To contact the owner, e-mail: [hidden email]

Though completely agreed on the content, I suggest you make it a "We, the
openSUSE Board" letter. That will avoid making it a Richard vs. others thing.,
but rather a board decision
My 2 cents

--
Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht

openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

michael norman
In reply to this post by Richard Brown
On 16/07/17 09:47, Richard Brown wrote:

> The [hidden email] is meant to be a support mailinglist for the
> openSUSE distributions.
>
> No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.
>
> I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all
> of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any
> discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist
> again.
>
> Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues
> are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest
> removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported
> init system for months.
>
> Religious discussions about whether systemd is good, or bad, do not
> help anyone. Take them off our support & development mailinglists.
>
> Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my
> recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the
> people ignoring this request.
> If this is anything more than 2 or 3 people, I will actually consider
> recommending that the Board discuss removing this entire mailinglist,
> because I am sick of having to explain to new community members that
> [hidden email] was once a support mailinglist but no longer
> serves that purpose effectively as it now has far, far too much
> commentary & techno-nonsense religion discussions by people who love
> to complain but not contribute.
>
> So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I
> will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list
> do not make an effort to end it. Now.
>
> Regards,
> Richard Brown
> openSUSE Chairman
>

You do that and you can say goodbye to me a SUSE user since 5.0 days.

I've never contributed much so my loss won't mean much.  But if your
view prevails I'm gone.

M

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

ianseeks-4
In reply to this post by Richard Brown
On Sunday, 16 July 2017 09:47:54 BST Richard Brown wrote:

> The [hidden email] is meant to be a support mailinglist for the
> openSUSE distributions.
>
> No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like
> it.
>
> I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all
> of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any
> discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist
> again.
>
> Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues
> are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest
> removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported
> init system for months.
>
> Religious discussions about whether systemd is good, or bad, do not
> help anyone. Take them off our support & development mailinglists.
>
> Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my
> recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the
> people ignoring this request.
> If this is anything more than 2 or 3 people, I will actually consider
> recommending that the Board discuss removing this entire mailinglist,
> because I am sick of having to explain to new community members that
> [hidden email] was once a support mailinglist but no longer
> serves that purpose effectively as it now has far, far too much
> commentary & techno-nonsense religion discussions by people who love
> to complain but not contribute.
>
> So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I
> will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list
> do not make an effort to end it. Now.
>
> Regards,
> Richard Brown
> openSUSE Chairman
Snip

I think most of us agree with you but you'll have to careful that it does not
stop people posting  a query about it in good faith just in case they think
they will get banned.  
But is it advisable to let misinformation about a fundamental part of opensuse
continue unchallenged and tarnish opensuse in the process?  
Sometimes ignorance/misinformation about some software is an honest mistake. I
prefer to be corrected when i misunderstand something rather than labour under
on in ignorance. Most of the thread was about giving information to correct
but obviously not all.
Maybe there needs to "opensuse-systemd" list   ;)

--
opensuse:tumbleweed:20170712
Qt: 5.9.1
KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0
KDE Plasma: 5.10.3
kwin 5.10.3
kmail2 5.5.2
akonadiserver 5.5.2
Kernel:  4.11.8-1-default
Nouveau:  1.0.15_1.2


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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Anton Aylward-2
On 16/07/17 10:05 AM, ianseeks wrote:
> Maybe there needs to "opensuse-systemd" list  

I think that's a very good idea, if accompanied by two policies.

The first is that any and all discussion of systemd here gets transferred there.

The second is that Richard's policy that anyone slagging of systemd, suggesting
it gets ripped out and regressing to SysVinit or anything of that class gets
removed.



--
         A: Yes.
     >   Q: Are you sure?
     >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
     >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?


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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Bruce Ferrell
On 07/16/2017 07:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

> On 16/07/17 10:05 AM, ianseeks wrote:
>> Maybe there needs to "opensuse-systemd" list
> I think that's a very good idea, if accompanied by two policies.
>
> The first is that any and all discussion of systemd here gets transferred there.
>
> The second is that Richard's policy that anyone slagging of systemd, suggesting
> it gets ripped out and regressing to SysVinit or anything of that class gets
> removed.
>
...And there you make intent clear... CON is not tolerated and PRO is encouraged.

And the core issue become plain

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Andrei Borzenkov
In reply to this post by ianseeks-4
16.07.2017 17:05, ianseeks пишет:
> But is it advisable to let misinformation about a fundamental part of opensuse
> continue unchallenged and tarnish opensuse in the process?  

Do not feed trolls.

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Daniel Bauer
In reply to this post by michael norman


Am 16.07.2017 um 15:39 schrieb michael norman:

> On 16/07/17 09:47, Richard Brown wrote:
>> The [hidden email] is meant to be a support mailinglist for the
>> openSUSE distributions.
>>
>> No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other
>> ones like it.
>>
>> I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all
>> of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any
>> discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist
>> again.
>>
>> Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues
>> are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest
>> removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported
>> init system for months.
>>
>> Religious discussions about whether systemd is good, or bad, do not
>> help anyone. Take them off our support & development mailinglists.
>>
>> Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my
>> recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the
>> people ignoring this request.
>> If this is anything more than 2 or 3 people, I will actually consider
>> recommending that the Board discuss removing this entire mailinglist,
>> because I am sick of having to explain to new community members that
>> [hidden email] was once a support mailinglist but no longer
>> serves that purpose effectively as it now has far, far too much
>> commentary & techno-nonsense religion discussions by people who love
>> to complain but not contribute.
>>
>> So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I
>> will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list
>> do not make an effort to end it. Now.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Richard Brown
>> openSUSE Chairman
>>
>
> You do that and you can say goodbye to me a SUSE user since 5.0 days.
>
> I've never contributed much so my loss won't mean much.  But if your
> view prevails I'm gone.
>
> M
>

Yes, it's sad that Mr. Brown acts like a medieval grandpa. Me neither
likes useless discussions, and - except right now - I usually don't
participate. When I see a thread drifting away I just ignore it. The few
bytes wasted: who cares!

While I agree that sometimes there are threads that for my personal
opinion are unnecessary, I still learn a lot here, receive help and, in
very rare occasions, even could help myself.

But we have Mr. Zuckerberg telling us what is morally correct and what
not (violence vs nipples), we have google terrorizing us with its
censorship and scandalous valuation of what is worth showing and what
not, we have the trump thing telling us what is true and what is fake
news, and now we have Mr. Brown telling us, that good is what he likes
and bad is what others think - and threatening the community to follow
his taste in a tone that is absolutely inadequate.

This not what I want to read. It's a f***ing rant just any other one,
just in an even more unfriendly tone. We are not your children, you are
not our legal guardian, and if you were, you should search for some help
about modern educational methods.


--
Daniel Bauer photographer Basel Barcelona
https://www.patreon.com/danielbauer
http://www.daniel-bauer.com

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

ianseeks-4
In reply to this post by Andrei Borzenkov
On Sunday, 16 July 2017 17:15:05 BST Andrei Borzenkov wrote:
> 16.07.2017 17:05, ianseeks пишет:
> > But is it advisable to let misinformation about a fundamental part of
> > opensuse continue unchallenged and tarnish opensuse in the process?
>
> Do not feed trolls.
I get that but someone new coming to the party might not know any better and
assume the troll is correct because no-one challenges it.

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Qt: 5.9.1
KDE Frameworks: 5.35.0
KDE Plasma: 5.10.3
kwin 5.10.3
kmail2 5.5.2
akonadiserver 5.5.2
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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

John Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Bauer
On 07/16/2017 09:49 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:
>
> This not what I want to read. It's a f***ing rant just any other one, just in an even more
> unfriendly tone. We are not your children, you are not our legal guardian, and if you were, you
> should search for some help about modern educational methods.
>

The problem is, this tyrant, much like the others you mention, does have control of this list
and he's just crazy enough that he would burn down the village to save the village.



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After all is said and done, more is said than done.

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Lew Wolfgang
In reply to this post by Daniel Bauer
On 07/16/2017 09:49 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:
>
>
> Am 16.07.2017 um 15:39 schrieb michael norman:
>> On 16/07/17 09:47, Richard Brown wrote:
>>> The [hidden email] is meant to be a support mailinglist for the
>>> openSUSE distributions.
>>>
>>> No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.
>>>

< snip >

>>> So, consider this a warning. I'm fed of up reading this nonsense and I
>>> will work hard to ensure that it stops if the attendees of this list
>>> do not make an effort to end it. Now.
>>>

< snip >

>>
>> You do that and you can say goodbye to me a SUSE user since 5.0 days.
>>
>> I've never contributed much so my loss won't mean much.  But if your view prevails
>> I'm gone.
>>

< snip >

>
> This not what I want to read. It's a f***ing rant just any other one, just in an
> even more unfriendly tone. We are not your children, you are not our legal
> guardian, and if you were, you should search for some help about modern educational
> methods.
>
>

In the immortal words of Rodney King, "People, I just want to say, you know, can we
all get along? Can we get along?"

IMHO Richard has a point, possibly poorly made.  This list, with a mission
of offering support to both new-bees and gray-beards, really doesn't need
nastiness and flame wars.  Heated theoretical discussions about the UNIX
Philosophy,  while interesting, probably aren't what a new-comer wants to
hear.  Someone offered the suggestion of creating a new mailing list, maybe
entitled systemd-design, or something.  Couldn't Per do that in a few seconds?

Also, I have some experience working within a volunteer organization.  I've learned
it remarkably difficult to channel volunteers to do what they don't want.  Pushing
a string comes to mind.  Volunteer's energies and morale are better lead
by encouragement and example.  Threats of any kind just trigger a stampede
for the exits.  I hope no one abandons us, just when I started to make the case
for a new group of technical people to dump Windows and join us.

Regards,
Lew

--
No side is defensive, because you can always go back to a previous
offense and a vengeance.  -- Carlos E. R.


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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Mathias Homann-2
I would like to emphasize the main point here:

Am 16.07.2017 um 19:32 schrieb Lew Wolfgang:

<snip>
> This list, with a mission of offering support to both new-bees and
> gray-beards, really doesn't need
> nastiness and flame wars.
<snip>

Imagine yourself being a newbie, trying to find help, and instead you
find yourself in the middle of that kind of deeply entrenched mailing
list verdun.

if you really have to have that kind of argument, do it anywhere else
you like, but please keep the mailinglists useful.

Cheers
MH

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Wol's lists
In reply to this post by Lew Wolfgang
On 16/07/17 18:32, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
> IMHO Richard has a point, possibly poorly made.  This list, with a mission
> of offering support to both new-bees and gray-beards, really doesn't need
> nastiness and flame wars.  Heated theoretical discussions about the UNIX
> Philosophy,  while interesting, probably aren't what a new-comer wants to
> hear.  Someone offered the suggestion of creating a new mailing list, maybe
> entitled systemd-design, or something.  Couldn't Per do that in a few
> seconds?

But would all the systemd advocates/detractors go there? My experience
on a list was that when they tried to push "off topic" stuff to
different it didn't work. It just killed the off-topic traffic stone
dead, and the result is now a "dull as ditchwater" technical list :-(

It's a hard problem to solve.

>
> Also, I have some experience working within a volunteer organization.
> I've learned
> it remarkably difficult to channel volunteers to do what they don't
> want.  Pushing
> a string comes to mind.  Volunteer's energies and morale are better lead
> by encouragement and example.  Threats of any kind just trigger a stampede
> for the exits.  I hope no one abandons us, just when I started to make
> the case
> for a new group of technical people to dump Windows and join us.

And who says a stampede for the exits is a bad thing? I haven't read any
of the systemd thread but it does seem to have gone rather rogue :-) and
maybe we don't want the participants here ... (there is plenty of
evidence that activists search out threads, and will join the
group/list/forum specifically to participate :-(

And from this particular thread, I get the very strong impression that
people are complaining that Richard is doing his job ...

If this is a technical support group, then I would much rather that the
systemd advocates/detractors are driven off (because they don't belong
here), than that the list is closed. If the openSUSE people have set
this up as a support forum, then it's their right to tell abusers of the
forum to "bugger off".

It seems to be the elephant in the room that anybody who wishes to
provide a support service to the public is expected to put up with any
kook/weirdo/nutter who wishes to abuse said service to their own ends :-(

Cheers,
Wol

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

ellanios82
In reply to this post by Mathias Homann-2
On 16/07/17 20:57, Mathias Homann wrote:
> Imagine yourself being a newbie, trying to find help, and instead you
> find yourself in the middle of that kind of deeply entrenched mailing
> list verdun.

wiki: WWI

"The Battle of Verdun lasted for 303 days and became the longest and one
of the most costly battles in human history. An estimate in 2000 found a
total of 714,231 casualties, 377,231 French and 337,000 German, for an
average of 70,000 casualties a month; other recent estimates increase
the number of casualties to 976,000, during the battle, with 1,250,000
suffered at Verdun during the war."


  cheers

...



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Re: systemd discussions on this list

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Wol's lists
Wols Lists composed on 2017-07-16 19:30 (UTC+0100):
...
> And from this particular thread, I get the very strong impression that
> people are complaining that Richard is doing his job ...

Maybe not so much whether as how, antithetical to /open/.

cf.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/meghan-m-biro-/secret-productivity-kille_b_14254046.html
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Knurpht-openSUSE
In reply to this post by Mathias Homann-2
Op zondag 16 juli 2017 19:57:06 CEST schreef Mathias Homann:

> I would like to emphasize the main point here:
>
> Am 16.07.2017 um 19:32 schrieb Lew Wolfgang:
>
> <snip>
>
> > This list, with a mission of offering support to both new-bees and
> > gray-beards, really doesn't need
> > nastiness and flame wars.
>
> <snip>
>
> Imagine yourself being a newbie, trying to find help, and instead you
> find yourself in the middle of that kind of deeply entrenched mailing
> list verdun.
>
> if you really have to have that kind of argument, do it anywhere else
> you like, but please keep the mailinglists useful.
>
> Cheers
> MH

Yep. And >100 post threads is what users land in. No openSUSE ML should be a
chatbox. The current state, long, dwelling discussions - not only about
systend - make it hard to suggest (new) users to post here.
I completely share Richard's annoyance. For the same reason: care for the
openSUSE project. Threads like mentioned are an abomination considered what
the ML's are meant for.


--
Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht

openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Richard Brown
In reply to this post by Wol's lists
Top-posting because I want to address a whole range of points in one mail.

On the potential shutdown of this whole list. I realise that
possibility is a heavy one. I do not make it lightly, I consider it a
last resort, and I do so well aware of the potential negative
consequences of making it.
But I think it is in the best interest of this mailinglist that I make it.
At the very least it should be a clear reminder that the tone &
success of this channel is the collective responsibility of everyone
here. There are 1243 subscribers to this list, but a handful are
dramatically impeding this lists function as a User support platform.
This is something 1200+ people can help manage, some already can be
said to be doing so given their responses to this thread, and I thank
those people for it.

On the claim of 'tyranny' & 'lack of openness'. I have made these
requests openly, to the whole list, as an opportunity for either the
individuals involved or the whole list to contribute to a solution to
the problem and negate the need for further action. This is an open
statement of what is acceptable on this list, justified by the fact
that this is the [hidden email] _support_ mailinglist and the
topic in question is not a _support_ topic. Even if you do not agree
with this, no action of any kind will be taken without the explicit
approval of the openSUSE Board as the body that is elected by the
community to make such decisions. No power will be abused, the people
appointed & elected to leadership roles within this community will
make the decisions they feel are in the best interest of this
community. It is their job to do so, and I think it's open, fair, and
transparent to do so with adequate warning. In this case, warning
before the Board even discusses the possibility of taking action.

On the topic of a new mailinglist. I am not opposed to the idea, but
every openSUSE mailinglist should only exist to facilitate
communication and collaboration on something which is actively being
worked on in the Project. Right now, no one is working on a systemd
alternative for openSUSE. So frankly, the idea of a separate list is
pointless. If someone steps up to do work, they already have -factory
to discuss technical details, and when those discussions get too much
for -factory, spinning out a separate list would be a natural option.
But contribution _must_come_first_.

On the topic of 'encouragement vs punishment' in volunteer
organisations. I agree that volunteer organisations run best when
people are encouraged to contribute. I wholeheartedly agree. And I
contest that, especially with some of the individuals engaging in
these problematic discussions, the encouragement to contribute has
been endless and yet wholly ineffective. openSUSE is an open project.
Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support
only systemd. The distributions we ship all only support systemd. It
doesn't have to be this way. If a tiny fraction of the effort that was
spent on arguing about the evils of systemd was spent building an
alternative, such an alternative could easily co-exist inside
openSUSE. This could be as subtle as convincing all of those hundreds
of contributors to support more than one init system (good luck -
people have tried and failed, you're asking for a lot of work), or as
extreme as a Devuaan style 'fork' of openSUSE, but it wouldn't
necessarily have to be a fork because I would quite happily encourage
it to be _part_of_the_openSUSE_project_.

But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and
discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that. The
narrative seems to be to expect the hundreds of contributors to the
openSUSE Project to do more work or different work. Work which all of
those contributors have clearly shown they will not do. This is a
problem that has now lasted as a recurring issue for this list for
over 6 years. Just let that settle in - we've been suffering
off-topic, irrelevant, systemd discussions for almost half of the time
openSUSE has existed.

It has to stop, and sure it is not sweet, nice, or encouraging, but
there are times when hard decisions must be made, the threat to the
community must be laid out, and an opportunity to correct the
situation must be given.

That is what I set out to do with my original post to this topic and I
hope this post clarifies a few of the finer points so things can move
forward in a positive direction.

On 16 July 2017 at 20:30, Wols Lists <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16/07/17 18:32, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
>> IMHO Richard has a point, possibly poorly made.  This list, with a mission
>> of offering support to both new-bees and gray-beards, really doesn't need
>> nastiness and flame wars.  Heated theoretical discussions about the UNIX
>> Philosophy,  while interesting, probably aren't what a new-comer wants to
>> hear.  Someone offered the suggestion of creating a new mailing list, maybe
>> entitled systemd-design, or something.  Couldn't Per do that in a few
>> seconds?
>
> But would all the systemd advocates/detractors go there? My experience
> on a list was that when they tried to push "off topic" stuff to
> different it didn't work. It just killed the off-topic traffic stone
> dead, and the result is now a "dull as ditchwater" technical list :-(
>
> It's a hard problem to solve.
>>
>> Also, I have some experience working within a volunteer organization.
>> I've learned
>> it remarkably difficult to channel volunteers to do what they don't
>> want.  Pushing
>> a string comes to mind.  Volunteer's energies and morale are better lead
>> by encouragement and example.  Threats of any kind just trigger a stampede
>> for the exits.  I hope no one abandons us, just when I started to make
>> the case
>> for a new group of technical people to dump Windows and join us.
>
> And who says a stampede for the exits is a bad thing? I haven't read any
> of the systemd thread but it does seem to have gone rather rogue :-) and
> maybe we don't want the participants here ... (there is plenty of
> evidence that activists search out threads, and will join the
> group/list/forum specifically to participate :-(
>
> And from this particular thread, I get the very strong impression that
> people are complaining that Richard is doing his job ...
>
> If this is a technical support group, then I would much rather that the
> systemd advocates/detractors are driven off (because they don't belong
> here), than that the list is closed. If the openSUSE people have set
> this up as a support forum, then it's their right to tell abusers of the
> forum to "bugger off".
>
> It seems to be the elephant in the room that anybody who wishes to
> provide a support service to the public is expected to put up with any
> kook/weirdo/nutter who wishes to abuse said service to their own ends :-(
>
> Cheers,
> Wol
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> To contact the owner, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

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Re: systemd discussions on this list (WAS: Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability")

Vojtěch Zeisek-2
Dne neděle 16. července 2017 22:43:48 CEST, Richard Brown napsal(a):

> Top-posting because I want to address a whole range of points in one mail.
>
> On the potential shutdown of this whole list. I realise that
> possibility is a heavy one. I do not make it lightly, I consider it a
> last resort, and I do so well aware of the potential negative
> consequences of making it.
> But I think it is in the best interest of this mailinglist that I make it.
> At the very least it should be a clear reminder that the tone &
> success of this channel is the collective responsibility of everyone
> here. There are 1243 subscribers to this list, but a handful are
> dramatically impeding this lists function as a User support platform.
> This is something 1200+ people can help manage, some already can be
> said to be doing so given their responses to this thread, and I thank
> those people for it.
>
> On the claim of 'tyranny' & 'lack of openness'. I have made these
> requests openly, to the whole list, as an opportunity for either the
> individuals involved or the whole list to contribute to a solution to
> the problem and negate the need for further action. This is an open
> statement of what is acceptable on this list, justified by the fact
> that this is the [hidden email] _support_ mailinglist and the
> topic in question is not a _support_ topic. Even if you do not agree
> with this, no action of any kind will be taken without the explicit
> approval of the openSUSE Board as the body that is elected by the
> community to make such decisions. No power will be abused, the people
> appointed & elected to leadership roles within this community will
> make the decisions they feel are in the best interest of this
> community. It is their job to do so, and I think it's open, fair, and
> transparent to do so with adequate warning. In this case, warning
> before the Board even discusses the possibility of taking action.
>
> On the topic of a new mailinglist. I am not opposed to the idea, but
> every openSUSE mailinglist should only exist to facilitate
> communication and collaboration on something which is actively being
> worked on in the Project. Right now, no one is working on a systemd
> alternative for openSUSE. So frankly, the idea of a separate list is
> pointless. If someone steps up to do work, they already have -factory
> to discuss technical details, and when those discussions get too much
> for -factory, spinning out a separate list would be a natural option.
> But contribution _must_come_first_.
>
> On the topic of 'encouragement vs punishment' in volunteer
> organisations. I agree that volunteer organisations run best when
> people are encouraged to contribute. I wholeheartedly agree. And I
> contest that, especially with some of the individuals engaging in
> these problematic discussions, the encouragement to contribute has
> been endless and yet wholly ineffective. openSUSE is an open project.
> Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support
> only systemd. The distributions we ship all only support systemd. It
> doesn't have to be this way. If a tiny fraction of the effort that was
> spent on arguing about the evils of systemd was spent building an
> alternative, such an alternative could easily co-exist inside
> openSUSE. This could be as subtle as convincing all of those hundreds
> of contributors to support more than one init system (good luck -
> people have tried and failed, you're asking for a lot of work), or as
> extreme as a Devuaan style 'fork' of openSUSE, but it wouldn't
> necessarily have to be a fork because I would quite happily encourage
> it to be _part_of_the_openSUSE_project_.
>
> But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and
> discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that. The
> narrative seems to be to expect the hundreds of contributors to the
> openSUSE Project to do more work or different work. Work which all of
> those contributors have clearly shown they will not do. This is a
> problem that has now lasted as a recurring issue for this list for
> over 6 years. Just let that settle in - we've been suffering
> off-topic, irrelevant, systemd discussions for almost half of the time
> openSUSE has existed.
>
> It has to stop, and sure it is not sweet, nice, or encouraging, but
> there are times when hard decisions must be made, the threat to the
> community must be laid out, and an opportunity to correct the
> situation must be given.
>
> That is what I set out to do with my original post to this topic and I
> hope this post clarifies a few of the finer points so things can move
> forward in a positive direction.
I totally agree. And I'd like to remind existence of offtopic ML...

--
Vojtěch Zeisek
https://trapa.cz/

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Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability"

L A Walsh
In reply to this post by Richard Brown
Richard Brown wrote:
> The [hidden email] is meant to be a support mailinglist for the
> openSUSE distributions.
>
> No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.
> ...
> On 16 July 2017 at 07:25, L A Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ...
>  
---
    Since you seem to be using my email as a springboard for your
"request", I would have you notice that many of the issue I mention
(that some think are "customizations"), predate the existence of sysD.
responding to my email, I feel it While I agree on one hand, I find it a
bit grating for any group
of people to be singled out as "not to participate" in a discussion
on this list, as it sounds like you are saying it's ok for anyone not
in the latest discussion to re-raise the topic later. The opensuse
membership changes over time, and some not here now can feel free to
bring this up while others who want to post their own experiences
are forbidden to share.

    I would like to make a counter proposal: create a different discussion
group for sysD.  Just as the kernel has its own group, surely sysD
has enough size and features to warrant its own group.  While I am
certainly turned off by personal ridicule for or flaming, since there
is a large amount of tension, confusion, and need for advice and
discussions sometimes become debates.  Provide a separate space where
those who want to discuss the matter can do so apart from those looking
for support in this group.

    It may be no one will want to post there -- but that would be fine
too, since it still gives a place for sysD discussion so it comes up,
it can be immediately redirected off this list to an appropriate location.
That include posts for & against, and concerning development, and
"help" concerning systemd.  Just like there is a separate space for
kernel discussion and factory discussion, why not sysd.


> I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all
> of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any
> discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist
> again.
>
> Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues
> are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest
> removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported
> init system for months.
>  
----
    More than months.  FWIW, I've never lobbied for wholesale removal,
just it being more flexible and configurable -- an issue that got me
involved in this recent round, as it's been a tendency toward the
opposite that has caused me the most discomfort/grief.

 
>
> Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my
> recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the
> people ignoring this request.
>  
----
    People compared Linus to Leonart.  People flocked to Linux because
they liked it -- it was a grassroots, bottom-up project.  Vs. SystemD:
it's forced from the top down.  It's not professional jealousy -- its
not professional at all.  While I've heard the term dictator applied
to Linus, it's never been without the the adjective "benevolent".
I've yet to see the same adjective applied to the pro-sysD-enforcers.

    "Failure to comply" will result in termination -- this is supposed
to attract new users to the OpenSUSE "community"?







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Re: systemd's "flexibility" & "configurability"

Bruce Ferrell
On 07/16/2017 04:20 PM, L A Walsh wrote:

> Richard Brown wrote:
>> The [hidden email] is meant to be a support mailinglist for the
>> openSUSE distributions.
>>
>> No one is being helped by the continuation of this thread or other ones like it.
>> ...
>> On 16 July 2017 at 07:25, L A Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> ...
> ---
>    Since you seem to be using my email as a springboard for your
> "request", I would have you notice that many of the issue I mention
> (that some think are "customizations"), predate the existence of sysD. responding to my email, I feel it While I agree on one hand, I find it a bit grating for any group
> of people to be singled out as "not to participate" in a discussion
> on this list, as it sounds like you are saying it's ok for anyone not
> in the latest discussion to re-raise the topic later. The opensuse
> membership changes over time, and some not here now can feel free to
> bring this up while others who want to post their own experiences
> are forbidden to share.
>    I would like to make a counter proposal: create a different discussion
> group for sysD.  Just as the kernel has its own group, surely sysD
> has enough size and features to warrant its own group.  While I am
> certainly turned off by personal ridicule for or flaming, since there
> is a large amount of tension, confusion, and need for advice and
> discussions sometimes become debates.  Provide a separate space where
> those who want to discuss the matter can do so apart from those looking
> for support in this group.
>
>    It may be no one will want to post there -- but that would be fine
> too, since it still gives a place for sysD discussion so it comes up,
> it can be immediately redirected off this list to an appropriate location.
> That include posts for & against, and concerning development, and
> "help" concerning systemd.  Just like there is a separate space for
> kernel discussion and factory discussion, why not sysd.
>
>
>> I respectfully request that the discussion of this topic ends and all
>> of the people involved do not create, continue, or restart any
>> discussion about the pros or cons of systemd on this mailinglist
>> again.
>>
>> Discussions that seek to practically help people with systemd issues
>> are of course perfectly fine, but it is unacceptable to suggest
>> removal of systemd on this list when it has been the only supported
>> init system for months.
> ----
>    More than months.  FWIW, I've never lobbied for wholesale removal,
> just it being more flexible and configurable -- an issue that got me
> involved in this recent round, as it's been a tendency toward the
> opposite that has caused me the most discomfort/grief.
>
>
>>
>> Failure to comply with my above request, will lead to my
>> recommendation to the openSUSE Board that we consider banning the
>> people ignoring this request.
> ----
>    People compared Linus to Leonart.  People flocked to Linux because
> they liked it -- it was a grassroots, bottom-up project.  Vs. SystemD:
> it's forced from the top down.  It's not professional jealousy -- its
> not professional at all.  While I've heard the term dictator applied
> to Linus, it's never been without the the adjective "benevolent". I've yet to see the same adjective applied to the pro-sysD-enforcers.
>
>    "Failure to comply" will result in termination -- this is supposed
> to attract new users to the OpenSUSE "community
Well said Linda!

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