package names python-python-*

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package names python-python-*

Michael Ströder
HI!

Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.

Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>". This convention is wildly
violated. And it makes authors of cross-platform ansible plays, puppet modules,
chef receipts, etc. even more miserable.

Ciao, Michael.


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Re: package names python-python-*

Sebastian-2
Hi,

On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.
Why get these packages accepted then at all?
> Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
> of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
The wiki says:
https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
> All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software
repository for the Python programming language.

The pypi-name is not necessarily the same as the import-name. E.g.
python(3)-dnspython provides the module dns, but is referred to
everywhere as dnspython
Another example is (python(3)-)python-termstyle. Even on pypi it has the
python- prefix (Tough in this example it seems a package without the
prefix has been created recently, but there are other examples)

> This convention is wildly violated.
I see 15 with python-python and 3 with python3-python.

Sebastian
A clueless opensuse-newcomer who just started with packaging a few
months ago

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Re: package names python-python-*

Michael Ströder
Sebastian wrote:

> On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
>> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
>> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.
> Why get these packages accepted then at all?
>> Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
>> of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
> The wiki says:
> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
>> All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
> called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
> on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software
> repository for the Python programming language.
This strange SUSE-specific rule is IMO non-sense and will cause nothing than
grief. Renaming existing packages will break *lots* of existing (automated)
installation routines. And what about Python modules never submitted to PyPI
e.g. with their own devpi repo?

Also I'd strongly object a request to rename package python-ldap to
python-python-ldap. IIRC the project name python-ldap (on SF) was chosen by
David back in 1998 to have a distinct name on SF and give enough context in the
project name on a dev platform not limited to Python.

> The pypi-name is not necessarily the same as the import-name.

Yes.

> E.g.
> python(3)-dnspython provides the module dns, but is referred to
> everywhere as dnspython
> Another example is (python(3)-)python-termstyle. Even on pypi it has the
> python- prefix (Tough in this example it seems a package without the
> prefix has been created recently, but there are other examples)
>
>> This convention is wildly violated.
> I see 15 with python-python and 3 with python3-python.

Of course you can find such exceptions. And people today are causing even
greater mess by using already existent module names. Still that's not a good
reason to blindly follow that mess.

IIRC the Python project itself imposed the package naming rule
of "python-<import-name> because at this time (pre-PyPI) the import name-space
was considered to be the only unique name-space for modules. AFAICS all
distributions follow that rule (with some errornous exceptions of course).

Ciao, Michael.



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Re: package names python-python-*

Sebastian-2
Hi,

On 08/13/2016 06:37 PM, Michael Ströder wrote:

> Sebastian wrote:
>> On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
>>> Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
>>> of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
>> The wiki says:
>> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
>>> All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
>> called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
>> on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software
>> repository for the Python programming language.
> This strange SUSE-specific rule is IMO non-sense and will cause nothing than
> grief. Renaming existing packages will break *lots* of existing (automated)
> installation routines.
Not if Provides and Obsoletes are used?
>>> This convention is wildly violated.
>> I see 15 with python-python and 3 with python3-python.
> Of course you can find such exceptions.
Aren't these the wrongly-named packages you referred to in your first mail?

I fully understand your argument and I'm totally fine with changing the
naming-conventions to use the import-name. E.g. fedora too has
python3-dns, not python3-dnspython. But I'm not the one who decides
anything :)

Sebastian

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Re: package names python-python-*

Michael Ströder
Sebastian wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/13/2016 06:37 PM, Michael Ströder wrote:
>> Sebastian wrote:
>>> On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
>>>> Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
>>>> of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
>>> The wiki says:
>>> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
>>>> All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
>>> called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
>>> on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software
>>> repository for the Python programming language.
>> This strange SUSE-specific rule is IMO non-sense and will cause nothing than
>> grief. Renaming existing packages will break *lots* of existing (automated)
>> installation routines.
> Not if Provides and Obsoletes are used?
>>>> This convention is wildly violated.
>>> I see 15 with python-python and 3 with python3-python.
>> Of course you can find such exceptions.
> Aren't these the wrongly-named packages you referred to in your first mail?
Nope.

Some examples:
python-python-gammu imports as gammu
python-python-daemon imports as daemon
python-python-dateutil imports as dateutil
python-python-ipmi imports as ipmi

I'm pretty sure I can extend this list but I'm lazy to install the misnamed
packages.

Ciao, Michael.



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Re: package names python-python-*

Sebastian-2
On 08/13/2016 07:32 PM, Michael Ströder wrote:

>>>>> This convention is wildly violated.
>>>> I see 15 with python-python and 3 with python3-python.
>>> Of course you can find such exceptions.
>> Aren't these the wrongly-named packages you referred to in your first mail?
> Nope.
>
> Some examples:
> python-python-gammu imports as gammu
> python-python-daemon imports as daemon
> python-python-dateutil imports as dateutil
> python-python-ipmi imports as ipmi
>
> I'm pretty sure I can extend this list but I'm lazy to install the misnamed
> packages.
At least these are (most probably) affected (from devel and factory on OBS):

python3-python3-openid
python3-python-axolotl-curve25519
python3-pythonbrew
python3-pythondialog
python3-python-editor
python3-python-gflags
python3-python-magic
python3-python-memcached
python3-python-mimeparse
python3-python-openid
python3-python-parameters
python3-PythonQwt
python3-PythonQwtpython-python-axolotl
python3-python-social-auth
python3-python-sql
python3-python-subunit
python3-python-termstyle
python-python-axolotl
python-python-axolotl-curve25519
python-pythonbrew
python-python-daemon
python-python-dateutil
python-python-debianbts
python-python-digest
python-python-editor
python-python-fanart
python-python-gammu
python-python-gflags
python-python-ipmi
python-python-jenkins
python-python-magic
python-python-memcached
python-python-mimeparse
python-python-openid
python-python-parameters
python-python-potr
python-PythonQwt
python-python-snappy
python-python-social-auth
python-python-spidermonkey
python-python-sql
python-python-stdnum
python-python-subunit
python-python-suseapi
python-python-termstyle
python-python-urljr


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Re: package names python-python-*

Hans-Peter Jansen-2
In reply to this post by Sebastian-2
On Samstag, 13. August 2016 17:46:30 Sebastian wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
> > Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer
> > python-python-* as package names? And the set of this misnomers even
> > grow.
>
> Why get these packages accepted then at all?
>
> > Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
> > of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
>
> The wiki says:
> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
>
> > All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
>
> called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
> on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software

This rule is actively enforced from a couple of SuSE people, that didn't
accept a submission to d:l:py with a differing name, namely Sascha Peilicke.

While I don't like the scheme much, it also has upsides: you can both search
on PyPI and py2pack is able to locate and fetch the package unambiguously,
with the name derived from the spec name (omitting python-).

In that light, speaking of violating some arbitrary naming scheme is
invidious. IOW, which naming scheme do we have to follow tomorrow?

Pete

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Re: package names python-python-*

todd rme
In reply to this post by Michael Ströder
On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Michael Ströder <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sebastian wrote:
>> On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
>>> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
>>> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.
>> Why get these packages accepted then at all?
>>> Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
>>> of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
>> The wiki says:
>> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
>>> All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
>> called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
>> on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software
>> repository for the Python programming language.
>
> This strange SUSE-specific rule is IMO non-sense and will cause nothing than
> grief. Renaming existing packages will break *lots* of existing (automated)
> installation routines. And what about Python modules never submitted to PyPI
> e.g. with their own devpi repo?

We previously used the import name, but it caused a lot of problems.
There are packages that provide multiple imports, multiple packages
with the same imports, packages that share imports, packages that
install inside the imports of other packages, etc.  The pypi package
name, however, must be unique, ties in with a lot of automated tools
designed to work with pypi, and works with the package names used by
the distutils/setuptools requirements specifiers.  So the convention
was changed to work better with the rest of the python packaging
ecosystem, which is focused around pypi package names.

What specific automated installation routine that is broken by this
policy?  Considering that most python packages already use the pypi
name for their requirements so they are compatible with tools like
pip, and any automated tool would likely need to be able to install
packages from pypi, I would be surprised if automated tools were not
able to use this information.
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Re: package names python-python-*

Thomas Bechtold
In reply to this post by Michael Ströder
On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 10:33:00AM +0200, Michael Ströder wrote:
> HI!
>
> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.

As mentioned in other answers, the rule is to use python-<pypi-name> as
package name. And we use that rule to convert pip requirements (which
refer to the pypi name and are often given from te requirements.txt file
or the setup.cfg file) to rpm package names. That would be impossible
when you use python-<import-name>.

Best,

Tom
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Re: package names python-python-*

Michael Ströder
In reply to this post by todd rme
Todd Rme wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Michael Ströder <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Sebastian wrote:
>>> On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
>>>> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
>>>> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.
>>> Why get these packages accepted then at all?
>>>> Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
>>>> of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
>>> The wiki says:
>>> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
>>>> All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
>>> called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
>>> on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software
>>> repository for the Python programming language.
>>
>> This strange SUSE-specific rule is IMO non-sense and will cause nothing than
>> grief. Renaming existing packages will break *lots* of existing (automated)
>> installation routines. And what about Python modules never submitted to PyPI
>> e.g. with their own devpi repo?
>
> We previously used the import name, but it caused a lot of problems.
> There are packages that provide multiple imports, multiple packages
> with the same imports, packages that share imports, packages that
> install inside the imports of other packages, etc.  The pypi package
> name, however, must be unique, ties in with a lot of automated tools
> designed to work with pypi, and works with the package names used by
> the distutils/setuptools requirements specifiers.  So the convention
> was changed to work better with the rest of the python packaging
> ecosystem, which is focused around pypi package names.
So basically your message boils down to:
Forget completely about Python modules shipped with the distribution and better
use pip-based installation in virtualenv to avoid relying on random distribution
changes to naming conventions.

Ok, I will do that and stop updating openSUSE Python modules right now.

> What specific automated installation routine that is broken by this
> policy?  Considering that most python packages already use the pypi
> name for their requirements so they are compatible with tools like
> pip, and any automated tool would likely need to be able to install
> packages from pypi, I would be surprised if automated tools were not
> able to use this information.

See my first posting. Ever heard of DevOps?

Ciao, Michael.



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Re: package names python-python-*

Michael Ströder
In reply to this post by Thomas Bechtold
Thomas Bechtold wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 10:33:00AM +0200, Michael Ströder wrote:
>> HI!
>>
>> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
>> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.
>
> As mentioned in other answers, the rule is to use python-<pypi-name> as
> package name. And we use that rule to convert pip requirements (which
> refer to the pypi name and are often given from te requirements.txt file
> or the setup.cfg file) to rpm package names. That would be impossible
> when you use python-<import-name>.
Changing names of existing packages without resolving a real issue for that
package breaks installation code. It boils down to avoid using distribution
packages.

Ciao, Michael.



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Re: package names python-python-*

Michael Ströder
In reply to this post by Hans-Peter Jansen-2
Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:

> On Samstag, 13. August 2016 17:46:30 Sebastian wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
>>> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer
>>> python-python-* as package names? And the set of this misnomers even
>>> grow.
>>
>> Why get these packages accepted then at all?
>>
>>> Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
>>> of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
>>
>> The wiki says:
>> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
>>
>>> All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
>>
>> called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
>> on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software
>
> This rule is actively enforced from a couple of SuSE people, that didn't
> accept a submission to d:l:py with a differing name, namely Sascha Peilicke.
Where and when was this discussed *before* enforcing this weird naming convention?

Ciao, Michael.



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Re: package names python-python-*

Thomas Bechtold
In reply to this post by Michael Ströder
Hi,

On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:44:18AM +0200, Michael Ströder wrote:

> Thomas Bechtold wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 10:33:00AM +0200, Michael Ströder wrote:
> >> HI!
> >>
> >> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
> >> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.
> >
> > As mentioned in other answers, the rule is to use python-<pypi-name> as
> > package name. And we use that rule to convert pip requirements (which
> > refer to the pypi name and are often given from te requirements.txt file
> > or the setup.cfg file) to rpm package names. That would be impossible
> > when you use python-<import-name>.
>
> Changing names of existing packages without resolving a real issue for that
> package breaks installation code. It boils down to avoid using distribution
> packages.

Can you give a concrete example where it breaks something? At least I
tried to follow [1] and added the Provides/Obsoletes when I renamed a
package so the dependencies should still be resolvable.

Best,

Tom

[1] https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Package_dependencies#Renaming_a_package


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Re: package names python-python-*

Simon Lees-3
In reply to this post by Thomas Bechtold


On 08/16/2016 03:49 PM, Thomas Bechtold wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 10:33:00AM +0200, Michael Ströder wrote:
>> HI!
>>
>> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
>> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.
>
> As mentioned in other answers, the rule is to use python-<pypi-name> as
> package name. And we use that rule to convert pip requirements (which
> refer to the pypi name and are often given from te requirements.txt file
> or the setup.cfg file) to rpm package names. That would be impossible
> when you use python-<import-name>.
>
> Best,
>
> Tom
>
Couldn't the rule simply be changed to omit the second python- if it
matches exactly (including case), starting everything with
python-python- is one of the sillier ideas ive heard of in recent time
(from a users perspective who 99% of the time looks in the distro repo
and doesn't touch pip or whatever it is.

I believe Michael is talking about working with automated install
scripts / documentation / spec files or anything else designed to work
across distro's (if you convince redhat and debian packagers to follow
the follow similar python-python- conventions you would have an argument).

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Re: package names python-python-*

Michael Ströder
In reply to this post by Thomas Bechtold
Thomas Bechtold wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 09:44:18AM +0200, Michael Ströder wrote:
>> Thomas Bechtold wrote:
>>> On Sat, Aug 13, 2016 at 10:33:00AM +0200, Michael Ströder wrote:
>>>> HI!
>>>>
>>>> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer python-python-*
>>>> as package names? And the set of this misnomers even grow.
>>>
>>> As mentioned in other answers, the rule is to use python-<pypi-name> as
>>> package name. And we use that rule to convert pip requirements (which
>>> refer to the pypi name and are often given from te requirements.txt file
>>> or the setup.cfg file) to rpm package names. That would be impossible
>>> when you use python-<import-name>.
>>
>> Changing names of existing packages without resolving a real issue for that
>> package breaks installation code. It boils down to avoid using distribution
>> packages.
>
> Can you give a concrete example where it breaks something? At least I
> tried to follow [1] and added the Provides/Obsoletes when I renamed a
> package so the dependencies should still be resolvable.
What all distro packagers most times ignore:
There is a world *outside* the distribution with *lots* of configuration code or
written operational manuals which all *break* with package renaming.

And even I'd be eager and willing to spend the time to write version-specific
configuration code openSUSE does not provide any robust way to determine the
particular version. As I was told here there's not even a robust way to
determine the URL for additional version-specific repos.

So what's especially frustrating for me is:
Some people just change a naming convention at their own discretion without
discussing this in public and without even considering the impact this has for
others.

Up to now I used openSUSE because there's was a good way to get new upstream
code into packages pretty quickly. But if I'm now forced to pip-based
installation in virtualenv there's absolutely no point to use openSUSE for my
projects anymore.

Ciao, Michael.



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Re: package names python-python-*

Hans-Peter Jansen-2
In reply to this post by Michael Ströder
Dear Michael,

On Dienstag, 16. August 2016 09:45:32 Michael Ströder wrote:

> Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
> > On Samstag, 13. August 2016 17:46:30 Sebastian wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On 08/13/2016 10:33 AM, Michael Ströder wrote:
> >>> Any reason why so many Python module packages have the misnomer
> >>> python-python-* as package names? And the set of this misnomers even
> >>> grow.
> >>
> >> Why get these packages accepted then at all?
> >>
> >>> Since ages the convention is that a distribution package name
> >>> of a Python module should be "python-<import-name>".
> >>
> >> The wiki says:
> >> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Packaging_Python#Naming_policy
> >>
> >>> All Python module packages, whether pure Python or C-based, should be
> >>
> >> called python-modulename. modulename should be the name of this module
> >> on the Python Package Index, the official third-party software
> >
> > This rule is actively enforced from a couple of SuSE people, that didn't
> > accept a submission to d:l:py with a differing name, namely Sascha
> > Peilicke.
> Where and when was this discussed *before* enforcing this weird naming
> convention?
I didn't follow the public discussions closely, I'm just a contributor of a
couple of packages. Around 2014, some packages were declined, similar to the
one attached.

Thought, I had some discussion about this, but cannot find it right now.

I was under the impression, this was decided in some internal discussion, and
then enforced with the reasoning from above.

>From an external contributor perspective with the intention of submitting a
considerable amount of packages, you try to avoid upsetting those, that are
the primary decision makers of your work later on...

Probably, the wiki has some blame tool, that helps to identify the person, who
wrote the main part of the Naming policy section. Might be more fruitful to
ask that person, although I have a strong suspicion, who that is.

Sascha did the most work in that area at that time, and is the Author of the
still helpful tool py2pack (even it takes some manual intervention to properly
generate the spec from time to time...)

Funnily, I have this item on my todo list: port py2pack over to python3

Cheers,
Pete
Visit https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/235466

State of request 235466 was changed by saschpe:

  new -> declined

Comment:
  As the module seems to be called "python-future", as per the Python pkg policy and to not confuse it with python-futures, please rename to "python-python-future". TIA!

Actions:
- submit home:frispete:python/python-future => devel:languages:python/python-future


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Re: package names python-python-*

Michael Ströder
In reply to this post by Simon Lees-3
Simon Lees wrote:
> I believe Michael is talking about working with automated install
> scripts / documentation / spec files or anything else designed to work
> across distro's

Or just work across different versions of SUSE distros.

> (if you convince redhat and debian packagers to follow
> the follow similar python-python- conventions you would have an argument).

If you consider the typical customers of Enterprise distros that's a complete no-go!

Ciao, Michael.



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Re: package names python-python-*

Simon Lees-3


On 08/16/2016 06:24 PM, Michael Ströder wrote:

> Simon Lees wrote:
>> I believe Michael is talking about working with automated install
>> scripts / documentation / spec files or anything else designed to work
>> across distro's
>
> Or just work across different versions of SUSE distros.
>
>> (if you convince redhat and debian packagers to follow
>> the follow similar python-python- conventions you would have an argument).
>
> If you consider the typical customers of Enterprise distros that's a complete no-go!
>
> Ciao, Michael.
>
Well I put it this way because i'm sure if someone were able to convince
both debian and Red Hat to break everything by changing to
python-python- they must have an exceptionally compelling argument :) as
personally I doubt they would adopt this.

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Simon Lees (Simotek)                            http://simotek.net

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Re: package names python-python-*

Simon Lees-3
In reply to this post by Hans-Peter Jansen-2


On 08/16/2016 06:22 PM, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
>   As the module seems to be called "python-future", as per the Python pkg policy and to not confuse it with python-futures, please rename to "python-python-future". TIA!

python-pypi- makes far more sense then python-python- if what you are
trying to achieve is distinguishing between modules that are built into
the language and ones that are shipped from a 3rd party via pypi, either
way that will still break lots of things for lots of people.
(Speaking from somone who maintains python bindings for the third
largest independent gui toolkit shipped with openSUSE and several
desktop applications that use said toolkit.

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Simon Lees (Simotek)                            http://simotek.net

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Re: package names python-python-*

Sebastian-3
In reply to this post by Hans-Peter Jansen-2
On 08/16/2016 10:52 AM, Hans-Peter Jansen wrote:
> Sascha did the most work in that area at that time, and is the Author of the
> still helpful tool py2pack (even it takes some manual intervention to properly
> generate the spec from time to time...)
>
> Funnily, I have this item on my todo list: port py2pack over to python3
It's only about the template, there's already a python3-py2pack
Have a look here: https://github.com/saschpe/py2pack/issues/59

Sebastian

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