openSUSE Weblate

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openSUSE Weblate

Ferdinand Galko
Can somebody please explain why was some translations
(/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate?
What does this mean for us?

Thank you.

Ferdinand
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Karl Ove Hufthammer
Den 10. okt. 2015 08:40, Ferdinand Galko skreiv:
> Can somebody please explain why was some translations
> (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate?
> What does this mean for us?

I don’t know, but I *really* hope this doesn’t mean that we have to use
a Web-based tool to translate openSUSE. That’s the antithesis of a fast
and efficient workflow.

I’m perfectly fine with a Web-based tool as an *option* for the
translators who wish to use it. But we need to be able to use non-Web
based localisation applications too, with a fast and easy *command-line*
based way to fetch and commit the translations (i.e., like the one
provided by ‘svn up’/‘svn commit’ or ‘git pull’/‘git push’).

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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Ferdinand Galko
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On 2015-10-10 08:40, Ferdinand Galko wrote:
> Can somebody please explain why was some translations
> (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate? What does this
> mean for us?

Huh? Where do you see that?
Link, further info?

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Andrea Turrini
On 10/10/15 19:47, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2015-10-10 08:40, Ferdinand Galko wrote:
>> Can somebody please explain why was some translations
>> (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate? What does this
>> mean for us?
>
> Huh? Where do you see that?
> Link, further info?

In the svn log of lcn/50-pot, you find entries like:

Migrate trunk translation of RELEASE-NOTES-openSUSE to http://l10n.opensuse.org/

and correspondingly all RELEASE-NOTES-openSUSE.xx.po files have been deleted.
This happened to multiple files in 50-pot.

l10n.opensuse.org/ hosts an instance of Weblate.

Best,
Andrea
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Karl Ove Hufthammer
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Den 10. okt. 2015 13:47, Carlos E. R. skreiv:
> On 2015-10-10 08:40, Ferdinand Galko wrote:
>> >Can somebody please explain why was some translations
>> >(/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate? What does this
>> >mean for us?
> Huh? Where do you see that?
> Link, further info?

For example here:

https://svn.opensuse.org/svn/opensuse-i18n/trunk/lcn/50-pot/snapper.pot.migrated

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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Andrea Turrini
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On 2015-10-10 14:00, Andrea Turrini wrote:
> On 10/10/15 19:47, Carlos E. R. wrote:


>> Huh? Where do you see that? Link, further info?
>
> In the svn log of lcn/50-pot, you find entries like:
>
> Migrate trunk translation of RELEASE-NOTES-openSUSE to
> http://l10n.opensuse.org/
>
> and correspondingly all RELEASE-NOTES-openSUSE.xx.po files have
> been deleted. This happened to multiple files in 50-pot.
>
> l10n.opensuse.org/ hosts an instance of Weblate.

Oh, my :-/

Who decided this?

Well, this kills my further contribution as translator.
I will never work on translations using a web tool.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Ferdinand Galko
> Oh, my :-/
>
> Who decided this?
>
> Well, this kills my further contribution as translator.
> I will never work on translations using a web tool.
>
> - --
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
>                 Carlos E. R.
>

Migrating to web is a silly decision according me.

I have the same feelings about finishing of translating in case of
this strange web tool.

Ferdinand
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Alexander Melentev
In reply to this post by Ferdinand Galko
2015-10-10 9:40 GMT+03:00 Ferdinand Galko <[hidden email]>:
> Can somebody please explain why was some translations
> (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate?
> What does this mean for us?
FMPOV, for us that means that nobody is actually interested in our
opinion, nobody cares for our established workflow and nobody has a
clue about best practices in decision making by discussing the issue
with those who are interested. This exact move of files clearly wasn't
decided here on translators mailing list. No recent discussion was
held, no simple warning was posted (sic!). I find this move really
demotivating.

I remember the suggestion about using weblate for opensuse-i18n some
time ago, but no decision was made back then. While I really think
that this is a good idea in general as it might lower the complexity
of the process for beginners, I don't think that forcing us to use
this tool is also a good idea.

P.S. I don't buy using git for translations. We had a single repo
where we could work on all the files at once. If everything will
migrate to git then every translator wishing to work on all the files
will need to host 150+ individual repos. I can't imagine how this can
be more convinient than what we have now.

It is clear that keichwa or sbrabec owe us an explanation.
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Karl Ove Hufthammer
Den 10. okt. 2015 15:22, Alexander Melentev skreiv:
> P.S. I don't buy using git for translations. We had a single repo
> where we could work on all the files at once. If everything will
> migrate to git then every translator wishing to work on all the files
> will need to host 150+ individual repos. I can't imagine how this can
> be more convinient than what we have now.

The choice of version control system is independent of whether the files
are collected in one place or scattered over different places (folders
or repos). I agree that the translation files should be collected in one
place, but have no strong feelings on whether this should be based on
Git, SVN or a different system (though I prefer SVN, for its simplicity).

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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Ferdinand Galko
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On 2015-10-10 15:12, Ferdinand Galko wrote:


>> Well, this kills my further contribution as translator. I will
>> never work on translations using a web tool.


> Migrating to web is a silly decision according me.
>
> I have the same feelings about finishing of translating in case of
> this strange web tool.

Well, I have just raised the issue on the Project mail list. :-/

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Ferdinand Galko
> Well, I have just raised the issue on the Project mail list. :-/
>
> - --
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
>                 Carlos E. R.
>
Well done.
Thanks

Ferdinand
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Efstathios Iosifidis
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
2015-10-10 17:13 GMT+03:00 Carlos E. R. <[hidden email]>:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 2015-10-10 15:12, Ferdinand Galko wrote:
>
>
>>> Well, this kills my further contribution as translator. I will
>>> never work on translations using a web tool.
>
>
>> Migrating to web is a silly decision according me.
>>
>> I have the same feelings about finishing of translating in case of
>> this strange web tool.
>
> Well, I have just raised the issue on the Project mail list. :-/
>
> - --
> Cheers / Saludos,

Carlos, personal opinion, I think you overreacting
According to official channels (which mean wiki page) translation is
done in SVN.
https://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Localization_Guide

Let's assume you're oposite to our official procedure, you should send
an e-mail to the board, so they deside next steps. I guess they'll
send to the list, get feedback and they'll decide.

Saying you stop contribute is SO selfish. I mean right now we use SVN
but some countries have Vertaal (closer to Web GUI). Why don't you
stop contributions?

Have fun,
/S


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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Vojtěch Zeisek-2
In reply to this post by Alexander Melentev


10. října 2015 15:22:07 CEST, Alexander Melentev <[hidden email]> napsal:

>2015-10-10 9:40 GMT+03:00 Ferdinand Galko <[hidden email]>:
>> Can somebody please explain why was some translations
>> (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate?
>> What does this mean for us?
>FMPOV, for us that means that nobody is actually interested in our
>opinion, nobody cares for our established workflow and nobody has a
>clue about best practices in decision making by discussing the issue
>with those who are interested. This exact move of files clearly wasn't
>decided here on translators mailing list. No recent discussion was
>held, no simple warning was posted (sic!). I find this move really
>demotivating.

I'd agree, but isn't it too early to say that? I mean, I don't see any word in oS wiki, nor official annoucement, instructions, ...

>I remember the suggestion about using weblate for opensuse-i18n some
>time ago, but no decision was made back then. While I really think
>that this is a good idea in general as it might lower the complexity
>of the process for beginners, I don't think that forcing us to use
>this tool is also a good idea.

Isn't Weblate just another UI? I mean, all needed files are in https://github.com/opensuse/ is there should be nothing preventing GIT lovers from working, right?

>P.S. I don't buy using git for translations. We had a single repo
>where we could work on all the files at once. If everything will
>migrate to git then every translator wishing to work on all the files
>will need to host 150+ individual repos. I can't imagine how this can
>be more convinient than what we have now.
>
>It is clear that keichwa or sbrabec owe us an explanation.

I think sbrabec is only author of Weblate, but he is not anyhow responsible for decision making...

Best,
V.

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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Efstathios Iosifidis
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On 2015-10-10 17:14, Efstathios Iosifidis wrote:

>
> Carlos, personal opinion, I think you overreacting According to
> official channels (which mean wiki page) translation is done in
> SVN. https://en.opensuse.org/OpenSUSE_Localization_Guide

No, we wrote that wiki.


> Let's assume you're oposite to our official procedure, you should
> send an e-mail to the board, so they deside next steps. I guess
> they'll send to the list, get feedback and they'll decide.

No, you are wrong. The board decides nothing, that's the policy. The
policy is that those who do things, decide how to do them.

In this case, somebody has "decided" for the people that do the
translations without even asking or telling, by doing it directly.
Whatever that "it" is.


> Saying you stop contribute is SO selfish. I mean right now we use
> SVN but some countries have Vertaal (closer to Web GUI). Why don't
> you stop contributions?

I use Vertaal. Actually, Vertaal was created by a member of my team,
Gabriel, implementing many of the ideas we, the Spanish team, had and
developed when we started working.

Vertaal is not a translation editor. Weblate is.

Often I translate at a remote isolated place without Internet, or very
limited, so using a webtool for doing the actual translation is out of
the question.

And even without that, I hate the very idea of working that way, for
many reasons.

So, no, I'm not overreacting. Mainly because they told us nothing. :-/

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Vojtěch Zeisek-2
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On 2015-10-10 17:37, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:

>
>
> 10. října 2015 15:22:07 CEST, Alexander Melentev
> <[hidden email]> napsal:
>> 2015-10-10 9:40 GMT+03:00 Ferdinand Galko
>> <[hidden email]>:
>>> Can somebody please explain why was some translations
>>> (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate? What does
>>> this mean for us?
>> FMPOV, for us that means that nobody is actually interested in
>> our opinion, nobody cares for our established workflow and nobody
>> has a clue about best practices in decision making by discussing
>> the issue with those who are interested. This exact move of files
>> clearly wasn't decided here on translators mailing list. No
>> recent discussion was held, no simple warning was posted (sic!).
>> I find this move really demotivating.
>
> I'd agree, but isn't it too early to say that? I mean, I don't see
> any word in oS wiki, nor official annoucement, instructions, ...

That's what pisses me.

The wiki says nothing because it is basically us who writes it.


>> I remember the suggestion about using weblate for opensuse-i18n
>> some time ago, but no decision was made back then. While I really
>> think that this is a good idea in general as it might lower the
>> complexity of the process for beginners, I don't think that
>> forcing us to use this tool is also a good idea.
>
> Isn't Weblate just another UI? I mean, all needed files are in
> https://github.com/opensuse/ is there should be nothing preventing
> GIT lovers from working, right?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weblate

basically, it is a wiki-like tool, editing directly on the web. Git is
in the back.



>> It is clear that keichwa or sbrabec owe us an explanation.
>
> I think sbrabec is only author of Weblate, but he is not anyhow
> responsible for decision making...

Certainly somebody owns us an explanation :-/


- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Vojtěch Zeisek-2


10. října 2015 17:56:21 CEST, "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]> napsal:

>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>On 2015-10-10 17:37, Vojtěch Zeisek wrote:
>>
>>
>> 10. října 2015 15:22:07 CEST, Alexander Melentev
>> <[hidden email]> napsal:
>>> 2015-10-10 9:40 GMT+03:00 Ferdinand Galko
>>> <[hidden email]>:
>>> I remember the suggestion about using weblate for opensuse-i18n
>>> some time ago, but no decision was made back then. While I really
>>> think that this is a good idea in general as it might lower the
>>> complexity of the process for beginners, I don't think that
>>> forcing us to use this tool is also a good idea.
>>
>> Isn't Weblate just another UI? I mean, all needed files are in
>> https://github.com/opensuse/ is there should be nothing preventing
>> GIT lovers from working, right?
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weblate
>
>basically, it is a wiki-like tool, editing directly on the web. Git is
>in the back.

I might be missing something, but if GIT is backend, what does prevent to use it directly?

>>> It is clear that keichwa or sbrabec owe us an explanation.
>>
>> I think sbrabec is only author of Weblate, but he is not anyhow
>> responsible for decision making...
>
>Certainly somebody owns us an explanation :-/

Yes

>- --
>Cheers / Saludos,
>
> Carlos E. R.
> (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Antoine Belvire
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Hello,

> Often I translate at a remote isolated place without Internet, or very
> limited, so using a webtool for doing the actual translation is out of
> the question.

I have looked at Weblate and it appears that one can download and upload
.po files so we're not forced to use the web interface for actual
translation.

However, I don't know if it's possible to download/upload/sync files
with command line. I suppose so; after all, as Vojtěch says, it's just
git behind.

I'm going to read the manual a bit… https://docs.weblate.org/en/latest/

Waiting for more information though :)

Regards

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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Alexander Melentev
In reply to this post by Vojtěch Zeisek-2
2015-10-10 18:37 GMT+03:00 Vojtěch Zeisek <[hidden email]>:

>
>
> 10. října 2015 15:22:07 CEST, Alexander Melentev <[hidden email]> napsal:
>>2015-10-10 9:40 GMT+03:00 Ferdinand Galko <[hidden email]>:
>>> Can somebody please explain why was some translations
>>> (/trunk/lcn/50-pot) migrated to openSUSE Weblate?
>>> What does this mean for us?
>>FMPOV, for us that means that nobody is actually interested in our
>>opinion, nobody cares for our established workflow and nobody has a
>>clue about best practices in decision making by discussing the issue
>>with those who are interested. This exact move of files clearly wasn't
>>decided here on translators mailing list. No recent discussion was
>>held, no simple warning was posted (sic!). I find this move really
>>demotivating.
>
> I'd agree, but isn't it too early to say that? I mean, I don't see any word in oS wiki, nor official annoucement, instructions, ...
Lack of all the things you mentioned is exactly the reason to feel demotivated.

>
>>I remember the suggestion about using weblate for opensuse-i18n some
>>time ago, but no decision was made back then. While I really think
>>that this is a good idea in general as it might lower the complexity
>>of the process for beginners, I don't think that forcing us to use
>>this tool is also a good idea.
>
> Isn't Weblate just another UI? I mean, all needed files are in https://github.com/opensuse/ is there should be nothing preventing GIT lovers from working, right?
Yes, that is correct, everybody capable of git will be fine. But every
app and every yast module is at the separate repo, so AFAICS the
translators would need to somehow manage with 150+ repos, doesn't
sound like a lot of fun, does it?

>>It is clear that keichwa or sbrabec owe us an explanation.
>
> I think sbrabec is only author of Weblate, but he is not anyhow responsible for decision making...
No, Weblate's author's name is Michal Čihař. sbrabec is the one who
commited the change to SVN, so he is at least part of decision makers.


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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Ferdinand Galko
In reply to this post by Antoine Belvire
I am the only Slovak translator for openSUSE now and it is not
acceptable for me to have .po files over different places.
It is actual state! We have our translations on two different places.
Somebody must have big fun from us!

For statistics. I use Lokalize.

Ferdinand
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Re: openSUSE Weblate

Alexander Melentev
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
2015-10-10 18:56 GMT+03:00 Carlos E. R. <[hidden email]>:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weblate
>
> basically, it is a wiki-like tool, editing directly on the web. Git is
> in the back.
>
Weblate is not an online editor (while there is a possibility to edit
online), it also provides whole files download/upload like Vertaal,
with support for glossaries and translation memory, so it is pretty
flexible tool. I've always wanted something like this installed on
official infrastructure to support openSUSE logins so every member
could contribute to translations in transparent fashion. Right now I
only worry for lack of communication and coordination of this move.
Oh, and also for inability of any regular individual translator to
manage hundreds of git repos with separate components for translation
in case everything will be migrated to weblate.


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