openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

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openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Johannes Kastl-2
Hi guys,

I updated my tumbleweed machine today (have not done so in a week or
so?), and got an error, as the Tumbleweed repo for openSUSE:Tools was
no longer existing.

Apparently it is now called ".../openSUSE:/Tools/openSUSE_Factory/"
and builds against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.

Any reason why this is no longer called Tumbleweed? When adding repos
to my home project I always get a repo called Tumbleweed, that builds
against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.

I know, technically it is the same, but it is not helping with the
whole factory-or-tumbleweed naming confusion...

Johannes


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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Adrian Schröter
On Dienstag, 28. März 2017, 09:32:58 CEST wrote Johannes Kastl:
> Hi guys,
>
> I updated my tumbleweed machine today (have not done so in a week or
> so?), and got an error, as the Tumbleweed repo for openSUSE:Tools was
> no longer existing.
>
> Apparently it is now called ".../openSUSE:/Tools/openSUSE_Factory/"
> and builds against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.

it existed with that name since the beginning.

> Any reason why this is no longer called Tumbleweed? When adding repos
> to my home project I always get a repo called Tumbleweed, that builds
> against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.

someone created that for some time, but I did not want to have double
builds, so I dropped the newer one again.

--

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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Johannes Kastl-2
On 28.03.17 09:34 Adrian Schröter wrote:
> On Dienstag, 28. März 2017, 09:32:58 CEST wrote Johannes Kastl:

>> Any reason why this is no longer called Tumbleweed? When adding
>> repos to my home project I always get a repo called Tumbleweed,
>> that builds against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.
>
> someone created that for some time, but I did not want to have
> double builds, so I dropped the newer one again.

I would have preferred to have it named tumbleweed, to avoid the
confusion, but I understand building twice is kind of superfluous...

Thanks for clarifying.

Johannes




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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Jan Engelhardt-4
On Tuesday 2017-03-28 09:36, Johannes Kastl wrote:

>On 28.03.17 09:34 Adrian Schröter wrote:
>> On Dienstag, 28. März 2017, 09:32:58 CEST wrote Johannes Kastl:
>
>>> Any reason why this is no longer called Tumbleweed? When adding
>>> repos to my home project I always get a repo called Tumbleweed,
>>> that builds against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.
>>
>> someone created that for some time, but I did not want to have
>> double builds, so I dropped the newer one again.
>
>I would have preferred to have it named tumbleweed, to avoid the
>confusion, but I understand building twice is kind of superfluous...

Can't you just use an _aggregate if you really want to have
both "Tumbleweed" and "Factory"? Saves the rebuild..
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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Adrian Schröter
On Dienstag, 28. März 2017, 09:50:38 CEST wrote Jan Engelhardt:

> On Tuesday 2017-03-28 09:36, Johannes Kastl wrote:
> >On 28.03.17 09:34 Adrian Schröter wrote:
> >> On Dienstag, 28. März 2017, 09:32:58 CEST wrote Johannes Kastl:
> >
> >>> Any reason why this is no longer called Tumbleweed? When adding
> >>> repos to my home project I always get a repo called Tumbleweed,
> >>> that builds against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.
> >>
> >> someone created that for some time, but I did not want to have
> >> double builds, so I dropped the newer one again.
> >
> >I would have preferred to have it named tumbleweed, to avoid the
> >confusion, but I understand building twice is kind of superfluous...
>
> Can't you just use an _aggregate if you really want to have
> both "Tumbleweed" and "Factory"? Saves the rebuild..

aggregates are evil and leads just to more problems and the same disk waste.

I would configure a redirection if we would really need a hack.

But given that this repo is away since quite some time already without a big
problem, I won't do hacks here...

--

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90409 Nürnberg
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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Patrick Shanahan-2
* Adrian Schröter <[hidden email]> [03-28-17 03:56]:

> On Dienstag, 28. März 2017, 09:50:38 CEST wrote Jan Engelhardt:
> > On Tuesday 2017-03-28 09:36, Johannes Kastl wrote:
> > >On 28.03.17 09:34 Adrian Schröter wrote:
> > >> On Dienstag, 28. März 2017, 09:32:58 CEST wrote Johannes Kastl:
> > >
> > >>> Any reason why this is no longer called Tumbleweed? When adding
> > >>> repos to my home project I always get a repo called Tumbleweed,
> > >>> that builds against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.
> > >>
> > >> someone created that for some time, but I did not want to have
> > >> double builds, so I dropped the newer one again.
> > >
> > >I would have preferred to have it named tumbleweed, to avoid the
> > >confusion, but I understand building twice is kind of superfluous...
> >
> > Can't you just use an _aggregate if you really want to have
> > both "Tumbleweed" and "Factory"? Saves the rebuild..
>
> aggregates are evil and leads just to more problems and the same disk waste.
>
> I would configure a redirection if we would really need a hack.
>
> But given that this repo is away since quite some time already without a big
> problem, I won't do hacks here...

re: "without a big problem", some or most of us silently dealt with the
change.  The problem is that factory is not always the same as Tw even
though they are advertized as so.

If.. a factory repo is supposed to equate to Tumbleweed, why not call it
Tw and thost factory repos that are more testing/staging grounds remain
with factory labels.  The factory/Tw situation is confusing, in that *if*
factory equals Tw, why not call it all factory or tw, or at least install
redirection that defines Tw apart from factory?


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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Johannes Kastl-2
On 28.03.17 14:17 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

> If.. a factory repo is supposed to equate to Tumbleweed, why not
> call it Tw and thost factory repos that are more testing/staging
> grounds remain with factory labels.  The factory/Tw situation is
> confusing, in that *if* factory equals Tw, why not call it all
> factory or tw, or at least install redirection that defines Tw
> apart from factory?

Exactly what I was trying to point out.

Johannes


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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Bruno Friedmann-2
On mardi, 28 mars 2017 21.25:41 h CEST Johannes Kastl wrote:

> On 28.03.17 14:17 Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> > If.. a factory repo is supposed to equate to Tumbleweed, why not
> > call it Tw and thost factory repos that are more testing/staging
> > grounds remain with factory labels.  The factory/Tw situation is
> > confusing, in that *if* factory equals Tw, why not call it all
> > factory or tw, or at least install redirection that defines Tw
> > apart from factory?
>
> Exactly what I was trying to point out.
>
> Johannes

But then what kind of software are here which are not present in TW almost the
week after ?

Normally the repo should only serve as -devel things ...

;-)

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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Bruno Friedmann-2
In reply to this post by Adrian Schröter
On mardi, 28 mars 2017 09.34:30 h CEST Adrian Schröter wrote:

> On Dienstag, 28. März 2017, 09:32:58 CEST wrote Johannes Kastl:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I updated my tumbleweed machine today (have not done so in a week or
> > so?), and got an error, as the Tumbleweed repo for openSUSE:Tools was
> > no longer existing.
> >
> > Apparently it is now called ".../openSUSE:/Tools/openSUSE_Factory/"
> > and builds against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.
>
> it existed with that name since the beginning.
>
> > Any reason why this is no longer called Tumbleweed? When adding repos
> > to my home project I always get a repo called Tumbleweed, that builds
> > against openSUSE:Factory/snapshot.
>
> someone created that for some time, but I did not want to have double
> builds, so I dropped the newer one again.

About double build, perhaps, this repo should also cleanup obsolete
distribution really openSUSE 11.4 to 13.1 SLE_11_SP3 :-)

I guess also a number of oldies in the Xubuntu, Fedora, Debian world ...


--

Bruno Friedmann
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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Patrick Shanahan-2
In reply to this post by Bruno Friedmann-2
* Bruno Friedmann <[hidden email]> [03-28-17 15:42]:

> On mardi, 28 mars 2017 21.25:41 h CEST Johannes Kastl wrote:
> > On 28.03.17 14:17 Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> > > If.. a factory repo is supposed to equate to Tumbleweed, why not
> > > call it Tw and thost factory repos that are more testing/staging
> > > grounds remain with factory labels.  The factory/Tw situation is
> > > confusing, in that *if* factory equals Tw, why not call it all
> > > factory or tw, or at least install redirection that defines Tw
> > > apart from factory?
> >
> > Exactly what I was trying to point out.
> >
> > Johannes
>
> But then what kind of software are here which are not present in TW almost the
> week after ?
>
> Normally the repo should only serve as -devel things ...

yes, the "factory" repo, but then
   factory != Tumbleweed
Tw may be a bastard son but ....  
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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Bjørn Lie-2
ti., 28.03.2017 kl. 16.19 -0400, skrev Patrick Shanahan:
> yes, the "factory" repo, but then
>    factory != Tumbleweed
> Tw may be a bastard son but ....  
>

From:
----
https://build.opensuse.org/project/meta/openSUSE:Tools

  <repository name="openSUSE_Factory">
    <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/>
    <arch>i586</arch>
    <arch>x86_64</arch>
  </repository>

----

Note the <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/>

That means it IS Tumbleweed (or built against currently published
"Tumbleweed" to be correct).

Had it said

---

  <repository name="openSUSE_Factory">
    <path
project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"/>
    <arch>i586</arch>
    <arch>x86_64</arch>
  </repository>

------

It would have been Factory.


//Bjørn
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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Patrick Shanahan-2
* Bjørn Lie <[hidden email]> [03-28-17 16:43]:

> ti., 28.03.2017 kl. 16.19 -0400, skrev Patrick Shanahan:
> > yes, the "factory" repo, but then
> >    factory != Tumbleweed
> > Tw may be a bastard son but ....  
> >
>
> From:
> ----
> https://build.opensuse.org/project/meta/openSUSE:Tools
>
>   <repository name="openSUSE_Factory">
>     <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/>
>     <arch>i586</arch>
>     <arch>x86_64</arch>
>   </repository>
>
> ----
>
> Note the <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/>
>
> That means it IS Tumbleweed (or built against currently published
> "Tumbleweed" to be correct).
>
> Had it said
>
> ---
>
>   <repository name="openSUSE_Factory">
>     <path
> project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="standard"/>
>     <arch>i586</arch>
>     <arch>x86_64</arch>
>   </repository>
>
> ------
>
> It would have been Factory.


In Other Words:
  tumbleweed is NOT factory, but may be.  Clear as a bell.

I do understand, but it is not clear to most.
 
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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Bjørn Lie-2
ti., 28.03.2017 kl. 16.48 -0400, skrev Patrick Shanahan:

> In Other Words:
>   tumbleweed is NOT factory, but may be.  Clear as a bell.
>
> I do understand, but it is not clear to most.
>  

https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_development_model

No Tumbleweed IS Factory, but only after it has been through openQA and
then published as a "snapshot".

We do not publish Factory anymore for users to install from, but it
available for devel repos to build against.

//Bjørn




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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Patrick Shanahan-2
* Bjørn Lie <[hidden email]> [03-28-17 17:14]:

> ti., 28.03.2017 kl. 16.48 -0400, skrev Patrick Shanahan:
>
> > In Other Words:
> >   tumbleweed is NOT factory, but may be.  Clear as a bell.
> >
> > I do understand, but it is not clear to most.
> >  
>
> https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Factory_development_model
>
> No Tumbleweed IS Factory, but only after it has been through openQA and
> then published as a "snapshot".
>
> We do not publish Factory anymore for users to install from, but it
> available for devel repos to build against.


this is becomming //bikeshed//, but
  to make it clear to everyone:
    tumbleweed == factory:snapshot
    tumbleweed != factory:standard
   
but tumbleweed = factory is a *different* meaning.
tw is a "qualified" factory.

a tw user who does not understand the differenct will/can break his system
using factory:standard packages

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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Bjørn Lie-2
ti., 28.03.2017 kl. 17.21 -0400, skrev Patrick Shanahan:
>
> this is becomming //bikeshed//, but
>   to make it clear to everyone:
>     tumbleweed == factory:snapshot
>     tumbleweed != factory:standard

Yes, a very nice short (and correct) explanation.

>    
> but tumbleweed = factory is a *different* meaning.
> tw is a "qualified" factory.
>
> a tw user who does not understand the differenct will/can break his system
> using factory:standard packages
>

That might happen yes.
However in the case of openSUSE:Tools it will not apply, since we know
it builds against snapshot.

The real issue is that users for whatever reason seem to think they
need to add massive amounts of devel repos to their TW install, just
because they can, and having repos named Tumbleweed seem to encourage
them to do this even more.
In my opinion discouraging this is a "good thing", but if users insists
on making problems for themselves, there is not much we can do.
Devel repos are (mainly) for development, and can and will break end-
users systems at various times unless they are careful with what they
install from them, no matter if they are named Factory, Tumbleweed or
"Super stable repo".


//Bjørn
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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Johannes Kastl-2
In reply to this post by Bjørn Lie-2
On 28.03.17 22:41 Bjørn Lie wrote:

> Note the <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/>
>
> That means it IS Tumbleweed (or built against currently published
> "Tumbleweed" to be correct).

For the sake of clarity to end users this repo should IMHO be called
openSUSE_Tumbleweed. This is confusing even to regulars like Patrick,
and it's even worse to less experienced users.

Johannes


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Re: openSUSE:Tools suddenly missing its Tumbleweed Repo?

Detlef Steuer-4
Am Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:42:41 +0200
schrieb Johannes Kastl <[hidden email]>:

> On 28.03.17 22:41 Bjørn Lie wrote:
>
> > Note the <path project="openSUSE:Factory" repository="snapshot"/>
> >
> > That means it IS Tumbleweed (or built against currently published
> > "Tumbleweed" to be correct).  
>
> For the sake of clarity to end users this repo should IMHO be called
> openSUSE_Tumbleweed. This is confusing even to regulars like Patrick,
> and it's even worse to less experienced users.
So much agreed!

+2

Detlef


>
> Johannes
>

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