not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

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not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Adam Spiers
I noticed that information on debuginfo packages on the "new" wiki is
woefully inadequate, and still links to

  http://old-en.opensuse.org/Packaging/Debuginfo

I wanted to do the right thing and transfer the page to the wiki.  I
immediately noticed that the old wiki does nothing to encourage this
process - the old page is missing a header saying something like

  WARNING!  This page is part of the old openSUSE wiki, and
  consequently may contain out of date information.  For the
  latest information, please visit [http://en.opensuse.org the
  new site].

  If the information you seek is only available on the old wiki,
  you are very welcome to help [https://en.opensuse.org/Help:Transfer
  transferring content over].

Please can someone add this?

I eventually found Help:Transfer by googling and guesswork.
Unfortunately even when I found it, I was astonished to discover that

  https://en.opensuse.org/Help:Transfer#How_to_transfer_articles

doesn't actually explain how to transfer articles?!  It has all sorts
of other information about Portals, styling, templates, but not the
actual basic explanation of how to transfer a page.  Maybe whoever
wrote this thought it was too obvious to be worth mentioning, but it
is not.  I know I could edit the wiki markup on both the old wiki and
new wikis and do a simple copy and paste from old to new, but how do
I know for sure that's the right way?  The most useful information
I found was:

  Now you have two options, either use the Special:Export page on the
  old wiki and the Special:Import on the new wiki if you want to
  transfer the article with all of its history or you just copy and
  paste the article if the history is not that important.

  -- http://news.opensuse.org/2010/07/12/new-wiki-what-now/

but it seems crazy to expect people to both find and trust a blog
entry which is over 3 years old.  Also one of the comments says that
only admins can do import / export anyway.

Please can someone fix Help:Transfer so that it explains this
properly, and then reply to this saying that it's fixed?  Help us to
help you!  Thanks:-)
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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Adam Spiers
Tim Mohlmann ([hidden email]) wrote:
> Honestly, most people dont think about the old wiki anymore, because if
> nobody missed such articles by now, they probably weren't that important.

I expect there were also many cases where untransferred articles were
missed, but the people affected just gave up looking and found their
information elsewhere or found a workaround.  And also some cases
where people would have benefitted from the information but they
didn't even know it existed, so they missed out without realising.

Whichever way, I don't think it's valid to view the transfer as a
closed project until the old wiki is actually turned off.  Currently
it still serves valuable information which is not available anywhere
else.  Therefore if we wish to get to the stage where we *can* turn it
off, we should make it as easy as possible for people to help getting
to that stage.  Who can add the page header I proposed?

And what is the roadmap for completely shutting down the old wiki?
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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Rajko M.

Hi Adam,


On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 16:59:42 +0100
Adam Spiers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And what is the roadmap for completely shutting down the old wiki?

There are no plans to shut it off.

Among reasons that you mentioned, like articles that are not
transferred, but still have value, there are article histories
documenting contributions which we have to honor.


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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Adam Spiers
Rajko ([hidden email]) wrote:

> Hi Adam,
>
> On Mon, 9 Sep 2013 16:59:42 +0100
> Adam Spiers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > And what is the roadmap for completely shutting down the old wiki?
>
> There are no plans to shut it off.
>
> Among reasons that you mentioned, like articles that are not
> transferred, but still have value, there are article histories
> documenting contributions which we have to honor.

But surely the remaining articles *need* to be in the new wiki, so
that they can be maintained properly?  And article history can be
preserved during a transfer?  I thought that was the point of
Special:Import/Export?
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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Rajko M.
On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 10:11:43 +0100
Adam Spiers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> But surely the remaining articles *need* to be in the new wiki, so
> that they can be maintained properly?  

Right, but we miss since ever maintainers, that will go and fix
problems. Currently it is C. Boltz for technical issues, and me for all
other stuff. Both not available that much. There are also guys that
translate wiki to other languages and fix problems on the go.

You stumbled on one that was forgotten in a rush to transfer as many as
possible before release. Later we didn't do that much to check what is
left in the old wiki. (See above for manpower :-)

There could be some other, but old wiki is not small and it will take
time to go trough and find what is not transferred, find someone that
understands topic to make estimate what to do, and finally transfer.
Not impossible, but a lot of work for available man-hours.

I can try to check articles, but I'm not good at making things simple
and usable, at least not in a short time. (That was main reason we had
transition the way we had. I was always late with proposals, or they
were too complicated.)

I have not much time recently, but I'll think about review of old
wiki and how to do it.

> And article history can be preserved during a transfer?  I thought
> that was the point of Special:Import/Export?

It is.

Problem was with some pages that have huge history that created
problem during the transfer. I guess it was problem with available
memory on the server. I can't recollect exact error, but while it was
solvable configuration issue, it would take time to get someone at
Novell to do that. So we resorted to copy and paste method.

It is much later that we got Matthew as server admin that was, and still
is very responsive, although he is on a different job now.  

Combine that with all other problems we had during transition, like
time pressure, relatively complicated, not completely thought through
and consequently not well documented transfer procedure (as you
noticed), and we are good that new wiki came out pretty usable in its
initial release.


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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Adam Spiers
Rajko ([hidden email]) wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Sep 2013 10:11:43 +0100
> Adam Spiers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > But surely the remaining articles *need* to be in the new wiki, so
> > that they can be maintained properly?  
>
> Right, but we miss since ever maintainers, that will go and fix
> problems. Currently it is C. Boltz for technical issues, and me for all
> other stuff. Both not available that much. There are also guys that
> translate wiki to other languages and fix problems on the go.

I try to fix things when I spot them.  But in this case I was not able
to, because the process was not at all obvious.

> You stumbled on one that was forgotten in a rush to transfer as many as
> possible before release. Later we didn't do that much to check what is
> left in the old wiki. (See above for manpower :-)

Sure, I totally understand and sympathize.  And to be clear, I am not
saying there is anything wrong with a phased migration, even if that
migration takes a long time.  But I think it *would* be wrong if the
migration never completes and we have two wikis forever (except maybe
for the possible reasons below).

> There could be some other, but old wiki is not small and it will take
> time to go trough and find what is not transferred, find someone that
> understands topic to make estimate what to do, and finally transfer.
> Not impossible, but a lot of work for available man-hours.

Well, this makes it even more important to ensure that it is easy for
wiki newbies like me to help out, doesn't it?  That's why I suggested
that you add that header to all pages on the old wiki.  That should be
really easy to do, and instantly alerts people to the difference
between the old and new wikis, and encourages them to help with the
migration.

> I can try to check articles, but I'm not good at making things simple
> and usable, at least not in a short time. (That was main reason we had
> transition the way we had. I was always late with proposals, or they
> were too complicated.)

I think it's wrong to expect you or a small group of people to do all
the hard work.  Divide and conquer is a better approach.  That's the
whole idea behind wikis in the first place, after all.  Otherwise it
would be called an encyclopedia, not a wiki ;-)

> I have not much time recently, but I'll think about review of old
> wiki and how to do it.

Please, just add that header.  It's all you need ;-)

> > And article history can be preserved during a transfer?  I thought
> > that was the point of Special:Import/Export?
>
> It is.
>
> Problem was with some pages that have huge history that created
> problem during the transfer. I guess it was problem with available
> memory on the server. I can't recollect exact error, but while it was
> solvable configuration issue, it would take time to get someone at
> Novell to do that. So we resorted to copy and paste method.
>
> It is much later that we got Matthew as server admin that was, and still
> is very responsive, although he is on a different job now.  
>
> Combine that with all other problems we had during transition, like
> time pressure, relatively complicated, not completely thought through
> and consequently not well documented transfer procedure (as you
> noticed), and we are good that new wiki came out pretty usable in its
> initial release.

I see.  At this point, I think it's not a disaster to lose the history
of pages which were still not transferred several years after the main
migration.  But if people are worried about losing the history, it's
OK to keep the old wiki running just to provide access to the history
- but *ONLY* if every page has that header!!  It needs to:

  - warn that the user is looking at out of date content
  - suggest where the replacement page might be by providing links to
      * the page with the same name on the new wiki
      * the search page on the new wiki
  - explain how to transfer it, if the above search for it shows that
    it was never transferred.

Please help us to help you!

Thanks a lot for listening :)
Adam
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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Rajko M.
On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 10:46:59 +0100
Adam Spiers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> OK to keep the old wiki running just to provide access to the history
> - but *ONLY* if every page has that header!!  It needs to:
>
>   - warn that the user is looking at out of date content
>   - suggest where the replacement page might be by providing links to
>       * the page with the same name on the new wiki
>       * the search page on the new wiki
>   - explain how to transfer it, if the above search for it shows that
>     it was never transferred.
>
> Please help us to help you!
>
> Thanks a lot for listening :)

OK, but there is a small problem, I can't log in :)


From: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:FAQ 
------------------------------------------------------------------
How do I put a text message (sitenotice) on every page?

Put a text in the MediaWiki:Sitenotice page. It will be displayed on
top of every article page.

You can also add text to MediaWiki:Anonnotice to create a message that
only displays for logged-out users. It is often a good idea to
transclude the site notice on the anon notice to make sure that
logged-out users still get the information on the site notice,
------------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Adam Spiers
Rajko ([hidden email]) wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 10:46:59 +0100
> Adam Spiers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > OK to keep the old wiki running just to provide access to the history
> > - but *ONLY* if every page has that header!!  It needs to:
> >
> >   - warn that the user is looking at out of date content
> >   - suggest where the replacement page might be by providing links to
> >       * the page with the same name on the new wiki
> >       * the search page on the new wiki
> >   - explain how to transfer it, if the above search for it shows that
> >     it was never transferred.
> >
> > Please help us to help you!
> >
> > Thanks a lot for listening :)
>
> OK, but there is a small problem, I can't log in :)

Why not?  And if not, presumably you are unable to edit or review
pages etc., so you have a much bigger problem.  It's just your Novell
Login account, so if you forgot the password you can reset it here:

https://secure-www.novell.com/selfreg/jsp/forgotAll.jsp?ref=h
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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Rajko M.
On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 11:05:45 +0100
Adam Spiers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Why not?  And if not, presumably you are unable to edit or review
> pages etc., so you have a much bigger problem.

Problem solved.
(Check another email :)

Btw,  opensuse-wiki is depreciated, we use [hidden email]
for all web related communication.

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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Adam Spiers
Rajko ([hidden email]) wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 11:05:45 +0100
> Adam Spiers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Why not?  And if not, presumably you are unable to edit or review
> > pages etc., so you have a much bigger problem.
>
> Problem solved.
> (Check another email :)

Great, thanks!

> Btw,  opensuse-wiki is depreciated, we use [hidden email]
> for all web related communication.

Hmm.  How do you expect people to know that?  I've been subscribed to
opensuse-wiki for quite a long time already, and this is the first
time I heard that :-/  I'm getting dèja vu ...
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Re: not clear how to transfer pages from old wiki

Christian Boltz-5
Hello,

Am Freitag, 13. September 2013 schrieb Adam Spiers:
> Rajko ([hidden email]) wrote:
> > Btw,  opensuse-wiki is depreciated, we use [hidden email]
> > for all web related communication.
>
> Hmm.  How do you expect people to know that?  I've been subscribed to
> opensuse-wiki for quite a long time already, and this is the first
> time I heard that :-/  I'm getting dèja vu ...

It was decided long time ago (October 2011) to merge opensuse-wiki@ into
opensuse-web@ - but unfortunately nobody did this on the server side, so
we still have two separate lists.

@admin team: any news on this?


Regards,

Christian Boltz
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Ziffernblatt ist mir das zu ungenau ;)
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