leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

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leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Per Jessen
In Milestone 2 it still worked well, but now we don't even install YaST.  
I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.


/Per


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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar
On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 10:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
> In Milestone 2 it still worked well, but now we don't even install
> YaST.  
> I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

I'm not sure 'ridiculous' is a valid choice of word here... consider
the various usecases for the minimum server pattern:

* Install a server (obvious)
There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)
* Install a container (nspawn, docker)
Yast is just a bloat in there... does not make any sense at all.

Instead of having a pattern that pulls in all the 'garbage' nobody
needs in those environments, the minimum pattern targets to get those
things up and running, allowing you to extend what you need. That's
much easier to achieve than hunting down things you don't want in these
setups and trying to eliminate them.

Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum sort-
of implies that bloat should be left out.

Cheers,
Dominique
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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Richard Brown
On 23 October 2015 at 12:21, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 10:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> In Milestone 2 it still worked well, but now we don't even install
>> YaST.
>> I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
>
> I'm not sure 'ridiculous' is a valid choice of word here... consider
> the various usecases for the minimum server pattern:
>
> * Install a server (obvious)
> There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
> setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)
> * Install a container (nspawn, docker)
> Yast is just a bloat in there... does not make any sense at all.
>
> Instead of having a pattern that pulls in all the 'garbage' nobody
> needs in those environments, the minimum pattern targets to get those
> things up and running, allowing you to extend what you need. That's
> much easier to achieve than hunting down things you don't want in these
> setups and trying to eliminate them.
>
> Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum sort-
> of implies that bloat should be left out.
>

and yast is only a "zypper in" away
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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar
Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

> On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 10:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> In Milestone 2 it still worked well, but now we don't even install
>> YaST.
>> I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
>
> I'm not sure 'ridiculous' is a valid choice of word here... consider
> the various usecases for the minimum server pattern:
>
> * Install a server (obvious)
> There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
> setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)

I'm sorry, but "ridiculous" is entirely appropriate.  YaST is the one
thing that distinguishes openSUSE from the rest, and we decide not to
install it.  I call it mind boggling.

> * Install a container (nspawn, docker)
> Yast is just a bloat in there... does not make any sense at all.
>
> Instead of having a pattern that pulls in all the 'garbage' nobody
> needs in those environments, the minimum pattern targets to get those
> things up and running, allowing you to extend what you need. That's
> much easier to achieve than hunting down things you don't want in
> these setups and trying to eliminate them.
>
> Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum sort-
> of implies that bloat should be left out.

YaST = bloat ?  That's a new one to me. Oh well.



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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar
On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 12:31 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
> Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum
> > sort-
> > of implies that bloat should be left out.
>
> YaST = bloat ?  That's a new one to me. Oh well.
>

Inside a container, yes, absolutely! It just does not belong there.

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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Lukas Ocilka-2
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
On 23.10.2015 12:31, Per Jessen wrote:
>> * Install a server (obvious)
>> There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
>> setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)
>
> I'm sorry, but "ridiculous" is entirely appropriate.  YaST is the one
> thing that distinguishes openSUSE from the rest, and we decide not to
> install it.  I call it mind boggling.

It's always about how much "minimal" you want it. The fact is, that Yast
is not "needed", it's really something additional. Yast belongs to a
"standard" server though.

Use case for "minimal server" here is (probably): as minimal as possible
to be able to install anything else that might be "missing".

>> Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum sort-
>> of implies that bloat should be left out.
>
> YaST = bloat ?  That's a new one to me. Oh well.

OK, "bloat" sounds a little bit harsh here :) and one might get
offended, but in general, he's right. But it's always about use cases,
you have different opinion, because you use it for different purpose.
Please describe your use case first.

Thanks
Lukas

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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Stephan Kulow-3
In reply to this post by Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar
On 23.10.2015 12:47, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:

> On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 12:31 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum
>>> sort-
>>> of implies that bloat should be left out.
>>
>> YaST = bloat ?  That's a new one to me. Oh well.
>>
>
> Inside a container, yes, absolutely! It just does not belong there.
>
We even got bug reports about the minimal pattern requiring a kernel

Greetings, Stephan


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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Ludwig Nussel
Stephan Kulow wrote:

> On 23.10.2015 12:47, Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:
>> On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 12:31 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>>> Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum
>>>> sort-
>>>> of implies that bloat should be left out.
>>>
>>> YaST = bloat ?  That's a new one to me. Oh well.
>>
>> Inside a container, yes, absolutely! It just does not belong there.
>>
> We even got bug reports about the minimal pattern requiring a kernel

Fortunately it doesn't :-)
The pure sum of installed package sizes of the minimal pattern is
less than 500MB. With kernel and grub we have ~800MB. The yast2
package itself including dependencies adds ~60MB to that, plus
whatever actual yast modules drag in.

The actual file system usage of an installed system may deviate from
those numbers though.

cu
Ludwig

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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Lukas Ocilka-2
Lukas Ocilka wrote:

> On 23.10.2015 12:31, Per Jessen wrote:
>>> * Install a server (obvious)
>>> There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
>>> setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)
>>
>> I'm sorry, but "ridiculous" is entirely appropriate.  YaST is the one
>> thing that distinguishes openSUSE from the rest, and we decide not to
>> install it.  I call it mind boggling.
>
> It's always about how much "minimal" you want it. The fact is, that
> Yast is not "needed", it's really something additional. Yast belongs
> to a "standard" server though.
>
> Use case for "minimal server" here is (probably): as minimal as
> possible to be able to install anything else that might be "missing".

Hi Lukas,

That's not a really a use case - the use case should describe _why_ a
minimal selection is desirable for a server.  See below.

>>> Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum
>>> sort- of implies that bloat should be left out.
>>
>> YaST = bloat ?  That's a new one to me. Oh well.
>
> OK, "bloat" sounds a little bit harsh here :) and one might get
> offended, but in general, he's right. But it's always about use cases,
> you have different opinion, because you use it for different purpose.
> Please describe your use case first.

It hasn't changed over the years, not much anyway. I install a new
server (physical or Xen) and I don't want any GUI/X primarily because
it just makes the install take longer.  Cutting away YaST does not
reduce the installation time very much at all, it only adds hassle.
Saving disk space is not very relevant, except maybe for xen guests.


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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Michael Ströder
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
Per Jessen wrote:

> Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 10:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>>> In Milestone 2 it still worked well, but now we don't even install
>>> YaST.
>>> I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
>>
>> I'm not sure 'ridiculous' is a valid choice of word here... consider
>> the various usecases for the minimum server pattern:
>>
>> * Install a server (obvious)
>> There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
>> setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)
>
> I'm sorry, but "ridiculous" is entirely appropriate.  YaST is the one
> thing that distinguishes openSUSE from the rest, and we decide not to
> install it.  I call it mind boggling.
I'm not a openSUSE developer. But when setting up a minimal server removing
yast is always one of the tasks.

Ciao, Michael.


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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Per Jessen
Michael Strc3b6der wrote:

> Per Jessen wrote:
>> Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 10:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>>>> In Milestone 2 it still worked well, but now we don't even install
>>>> YaST.
>>>> I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure 'ridiculous' is a valid choice of word here... consider
>>> the various usecases for the minimum server pattern:
>>>
>>> * Install a server (obvious)
>>> There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
>>> setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)
>>
>> I'm sorry, but "ridiculous" is entirely appropriate.  YaST is the one
>> thing that distinguishes openSUSE from the rest, and we decide not to
>> install it.  I call it mind boggling.
>
> I'm not a openSUSE developer. But when setting up a minimal server
> removing yast is always one of the tasks.

Why do you use openSUSE then?  



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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
Per Jessen wrote:

>>>> Mind you: the patter is called "Minimum Server Pattern". Minimum
>>>> sort- of implies that bloat should be left out.
>>>
>>> YaST = bloat ?  That's a new one to me. Oh well.
>>
>> OK, "bloat" sounds a little bit harsh here :) and one might get
>> offended, but in general, he's right. But it's always about use
>> cases, you have different opinion, because you use it for different
>> purpose. Please describe your use case first.
>
> It hasn't changed over the years, not much anyway. I install a new
> server (physical or Xen) and I don't want any GUI/X primarily because
> it just makes the install take longer.  Cutting away YaST does not
> reduce the installation time very much at all, it only adds hassle.

If we are to remove other "bloat", how about these:

acl - Commands for Manipulating POSIX Access Control Lists  
audit - User Space Tools for 2.6 Kernel Auditing
bc - GNU Command Line Calculator
btrfsprogs - Utilities for the Btrfs filesystem  
ca-certificates - Utilities for system wide CA certificate installation        
cracklib - Library to crack passwords using dictionaries
crda - something regulatory.
dirmngr - A Client for Managing and Downloading CRLs  
efibootmgr - EFI Boot Manager  
fipscheck - A library for integrity verification of FIPS validated
modules
joe or vim - two editors?? surely a waste.
krb5 - MIT Kerberos5 Implementation--Librarie
libselinux1*
logrotate
mozilla-nspr - Netscape Portable Runtime
nfs-client - Support Utilities for NFS  
ntp - Network Time Protocol daemon
rsync
strace
tcsh - The C SHell
tnftp - Enhanced FTP Client
traceroute
w3m
wol - Wake On Lan client
xauth - Utility to edit and display the X authorization informatio
shim - UEFI shim loader

Surely this crud isn't needed on a serious server.
But no, instead of the "bloat" above, we remove YaST and we don't even
install a firewall, not to mention iptables.  A serious server doesn't
need a firewall???


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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Johannes Meixner
In reply to this post by Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar

Hello,

On Oct 23 12:21 Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote (excerpt):

> On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 10:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> In Milestone 2 it still worked well, but now we don't even install
>> YaST.  
>> I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
>
> I'm not sure 'ridiculous' is a valid choice of word here... consider
> the various usecases for the minimum server pattern:
>
> * Install a server (obvious)
> There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
> setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)
> * Install a container (nspawn, docker)
> Yast is just a bloat in there... does not make any sense at all.
I like to confirm that Dominique is right.

Basically with a really minimum pattern the only thing
that must work is bash and "zypper install".

FWIW:
I usually install only the base, minimal, and X patterns
as starting point because this way I get a lightweight
initial system with a basic set of tools/applications
that fit my pesonal needs ( I am not a desktop user ;-)


Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Michal Kubecek
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
On Friday 23 of October 2015 13:33:17 Per Jessen wrote:
> Michael Strc3b6der wrote:
> >
> > I'm not a openSUSE developer. But when setting up a minimal server
> > removing yast is always one of the tasks.
>
> Why do you use openSUSE then?

Do you seriously believe YaST is the only possible reason someone could
choose openSUSE? If so, you are wrong.

                                                         Michal Kubeček

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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Johannes Meixner
In reply to this post by Michael Ströder

Hello Michael,

On Oct 23 13:24 Michael Ströder wrote (excerpt):
> But when setting up a minimal server removing
> yast is always one of the tasks.

Could you provide your personal reasons why you do not want
to have YaST on your servers.

I know this is often the case and I can imagine various reasons
for it but I like to learn what various actual reasons are.


Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Michael Ströder
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
Per Jessen wrote:

> Michael Strc3b6der wrote:
>
>> Per Jessen wrote:
>>> Dominique Leuenberger / DimStar wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 2015-10-23 at 10:44 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>>>>> In Milestone 2 it still worked well, but now we don't even install
>>>>> YaST.
>>>>> I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure 'ridiculous' is a valid choice of word here... consider
>>>> the various usecases for the minimum server pattern:
>>>>
>>>> * Install a server (obvious)
>>>> There, it's arguable if you need yast or not... most serious server
>>>> setups will be using other management tools (puppet et.al)
>>>
>>> I'm sorry, but "ridiculous" is entirely appropriate.  YaST is the one
>>> thing that distinguishes openSUSE from the rest, and we decide not to
>>> install it.  I call it mind boggling.
>>
>> I'm not a openSUSE developer. But when setting up a minimal server
>> removing yast is always one of the tasks.
>
> Why do you use openSUSE then?
Because of many other reasons (e.g. OBS).

Ciao, Michael.


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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Richard Brown
In reply to this post by Michal Kubecek
On 23 October 2015 at 14:02, Michal Kubecek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Friday 23 of October 2015 13:33:17 Per Jessen wrote:
>> Michael Strc3b6der wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm not a openSUSE developer. But when setting up a minimal server
>> > removing yast is always one of the tasks.
>>
>> Why do you use openSUSE then?
>
> Do you seriously believe YaST is the only possible reason someone could
> choose openSUSE? If so, you are wrong.
>
>                                                          Michal Kubeček
>

As it's somewhat relevant here, I actually have some exciting news
from inside SUSE

SUSE are about to publish a minimised virtual machine image called
JeOS based on the SLES 12 codebase very soon - I don't know when the
official announcement is planned, you're all hearing about it here
first.

Like the openSUSE minimal install, it aims to be 'minimal but fully
usable', including having zypper with no YaST

They've gone and done a few things we probably want to learn from,
such as tuning things down to a very tidy size while still retaining
nifty features like btrfs/snapper.

So, yeah, YaST is great, but there's more reason to use openSUSE and
SUSE stuff than just our beloved management tool
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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Michal Kubecek
Michal Kubecek wrote:

> On Friday 23 of October 2015 13:33:17 Per Jessen wrote:
>> Michael Strc3b6der wrote:
>> >
>> > I'm not a openSUSE developer. But when setting up a minimal server
>> > removing yast is always one of the tasks.
>>
>> Why do you use openSUSE then?
>
> Do you seriously believe YaST is the only possible reason someone
> could choose openSUSE? If so, you are wrong.

No, I don't believe that is the only reason, I believe it is a very
important reason and certainly what truly sets us apart from the rest.  



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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Jim Henderson-4
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 16:56:12 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

> Michal Kubecek wrote:
>
>> On Friday 23 of October 2015 13:33:17 Per Jessen wrote:
>>> Michael Strc3b6der wrote:
>>> >
>>> > I'm not a openSUSE developer. But when setting up a minimal server
>>> > removing yast is always one of the tasks.
>>>
>>> Why do you use openSUSE then?
>>
>> Do you seriously believe YaST is the only possible reason someone could
>> choose openSUSE? If so, you are wrong.
>
> No, I don't believe that is the only reason, I believe it is a very
> important reason and certainly what truly sets us apart from the rest.

Perhaps another thing that will set us apart from the rest is being
friendly to container-based deployments by not including anything more
than is necessary.

Jim

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Re: leap42 - minimum server pattern has become too minimum

Jim Henderson-4
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 13:22:41 +0200, Per Jessen wrote:

> Saving disk space is not very relevant, except maybe for xen guests.

One word:  Docker.

YaST is completely superfluous in a Docker container.

Jim

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