if the community contributed?

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if the community contributed?

Per Jessen
Katarina Machalkova wrote:

>> > We're doing a massive redesign of the partitioner for 11.1 and I'm
>> > not sure whether we can add ext4 support.
>
> At this point of time, I'm sorry to tell we can't :( Neither we will
> support ext4, nor, for example nfs4. ENOTIME ...
> However, we accept patches :)) Actually, we'd be quite happy if the
> community contributed.
>

Hello Katarina,

this is one thing I've been thinking about on and off - how _exactly_
does the community contribute to openSUSE?

Not openSUSE the distro, but openSUSE the packaging, framework,
concept - whatever it is that sets openSUSE apart.  After all, the
software distributed is the same.

I understand that areas such as translation are easy to open to
community support, but your comments were made in the context of the
partitioner and ext4, i.e. YaST, a very key element to openSUSE.

Personally (and partially speaking on behalf of my company too), I'd
like to contribute in the areas of JFS and LILO support.  Both have
been or are being deprecated support-wise, which I am or have been
quite vocal about.

So, as we are talking about the YaST/partitioner, the key question is:

who decides what goes into it?

Is this true open source, or is it a Novell product management decision?
Who is the project lead on YaST? How does one submit patches? Who
decides what is accepted and what is rejected?

For instance - why might ext4 get accepted/supported whilst JFS got
kicked out earlier?  I dare say their level of support/testing is about
the same ATM.

If you can answer those questions in a satisfactory manner, you might
just be getting some community support.


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Re: if the community contributed?

Benji Weber
2008/8/8 Per Jessen <[hidden email]>:
> Is this true open source, or is it a Novell product management decision?
> Who is the project lead on YaST? How does one submit patches? Who
> decides what is accepted and what is rejected?

http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Team has the yast team details. It is a
true open source project with public svn at http://svn.opensuse.org.
If you want to discuss contributing the yast-devel mailing list might
be most appropriate.

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Benjamin Weber
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Re: if the community contributed?

Per Jessen
Benji Weber wrote:

> 2008/8/8 Per Jessen <[hidden email]>:
>> Is this true open source, or is it a Novell product management
>> decision? Who is the project lead on YaST? How does one submit
>> patches? Who decides what is accepted and what is rejected?
>
> http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Team has the yast team details. It is a
> true open source project with public svn at http://svn.opensuse.org.

Hello Benji

there appears to be only 2 (two!) community members listed on
http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Team - one of which is yourself.

Thanks for your reply, but I think you've neglected to answer the
questions I posed:

Is this (openSUSE/YaST ) true open source, or is it a Novell product
management decision? Who is the project lead on YaST? How does one
submit patches? Who decides what is accepted and what is rejected?

> If you want to discuss contributing the yast-devel mailing list might
> be most appropriate.

I shall certainly join that. Thanks for making me aware.


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Re: if the community contributed?

Benji Weber
2008/8/8 Per Jessen <[hidden email]>:
> there appears to be only 2 (two!) community members listed on
> http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Team - one of which is yourself.

True there's only 2 people listed there not employed by Novell, but
the development was only opened up fully about a year ago (although it
had been free software for longer). Also there are a lot more
contributors listed than on that page, both in the community and
working for other companies.

> Thanks for your reply, but I think you've neglected to answer the
> questions I posed:

I suggested you contact the yast-devel mailing list for questions
specific to the yast development process as people there will no doubt
be able to give you better answers. I can only provide opinions based
on my experience, but if you want I will try to answer.

> Is this (openSUSE/YaST ) true open source,

I'm not sure what you mean by this. YaST is open source and free
software (It is GPLed)
It is also developed in the open in a public code repository.

> or is it a Novell product
> management decision? Who is the project lead on YaST? How does one
> submit patches? Who decides what is accepted and what is rejected?

It is also open to contribution from anyone, whether or not they work
for Novell (I believe everyone on the yast team list has commit
access). The first place to send patches would be the yast-devel list,
or attach to the appropriate bug in bugzilla. Decisions about what is
accepted or rejected would presumably be made by either the maintainer
of what you are submitting a patch to or a team leader.

As for what is shipped with and supported in the official
distribution, that is up to Novell as they are the ones providing the
support. Nevertheless, I would be surprised if something that there is
community demand for, and community resource to maintain would be
excluded.

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Benjamin Weber
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Re: if the community contributed?

Andreas Jaeger
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
Per Jessen <[hidden email]> writes:

> Benji Weber wrote:
>
>> 2008/8/8 Per Jessen <[hidden email]>:
>>> Is this true open source, or is it a Novell product management
>>> decision? Who is the project lead on YaST? How does one submit
>>> patches? Who decides what is accepted and what is rejected?
>>
>> http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Team has the yast team details. It is a
>> true open source project with public svn at http://svn.opensuse.org.
>
> Hello Benji
>
> there appears to be only 2 (two!) community members listed on
> http://en.opensuse.org/YaST/Team - one of which is yourself.
>
> Thanks for your reply, but I think you've neglected to answer the
> questions I posed:
>
> Is this (openSUSE/YaST ) true open source, or is it a Novell product
> management decision? Who is the project lead on YaST? How does one
> submit patches? Who decides what is accepted and what is rejected?
Let's look how other open source projects basically work (very
simplified):

The open source developers work on those areas that they consider
critical and are interesting for them to work on.  They do look at bug
reports, feature requests etc and decide what's in their view is best
for the project.  Most look forward in a positive way to new developers
and embrace them: They help them to get into the project, guide them
with their first contribution, review and accept their patches - or
explain why the patch is either of bad quality or going in a direction
that the project is not going.

YaST is an open source project!  Discussions and repositories are
public, and the YaST team is a friendly crowd that embrace new members
that want to contribute to YaST

The YaST developers prioritize their work not necessarily like they want
but like Novell management wants it. But: They do look at features and
bug reports coming in through bugzilla and suggestions made by the
community - and discuss everything in the open.  Just read the archives
of the yast-devel mailing list and you see various patches that were
done by community members where the Novell engineers helped others,
integrated work, accepted patches etc - like on every open source
project.

Send your patches to the YaST mailing list and see what happens with
them ;)

Andreas
--
 Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, [hidden email]
  SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
   Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
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Re: if the community contributed?

Alexey Eromenko
Hi Andreas,

On a similar note I would like to complain, that today there is not
mechanism for introducing user's packages from Build Service into
Factory.

I spoken with few people on build service mailing list, but we came to
no conclusion.

I think that the best would be to make a new Build Service project
called: "Factory-Candidates", which is made out of packages that
already stable and already in the build service but wanna be
contributed into "Factory".

It may function similarly to Mandriva's "contrib", except for better
quality control.

And after some tests, those packages should become part of factory.

Reason:
openSUSE lacks in the packages arena - both copmpared to Mandriva and
Debian which have much more packages and useful utilities, and
extensions for applications, that are part of distro.

I'm willing to contribute. Both at testing/maintaining/building RPMs.
--
-Alexey Eromenko "Technologov"
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Re: if the community contributed?

Andreas Jaeger
"Alexey Eremenko" <[hidden email]> writes:

> Hi Andreas,
>
> On a similar note I would like to complain, that today there is not
> mechanism for introducing user's packages from Build Service into
> Factory.

Yes, this is something which needs some more thinking and discussions.
We have so far for Factory the following requirements:
* Novell co-maintainership
* Possibility to deliver security updates during live time of product
* strict legal review

IMO we need some other way, perhaps some "contrib" where some of these
do not need to apply - and also some rules on which to add to
"factory",

Andreas
--
 Andreas Jaeger, Director Platform / openSUSE, [hidden email]
  SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG Nürnberg)
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Re: if the community contributed?

Joaquin Sosa
On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Andreas Jaeger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Alexey Eremenko" <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Hi Andreas,
>>
>> On a similar note I would like to complain, that today there is not
>> mechanism for introducing user's packages from Build Service into
>> Factory.
>
> Yes, this is something which needs some more thinking and discussions.
> We have so far for Factory the following requirements:
> * Novell co-maintainership
> * Possibility to deliver security updates during live time of product
> * strict legal review
>
> IMO we need some other way, perhaps some "contrib" where some of these
> do not need to apply - and also some rules on which to add to
> "factory",

At the very least the OBS needs to be expanded. Right now in Yast
"Community repositories" very few of the available repositories are
even listed. One needs to manually search the OBS and add the
repositories they are interested in. If at the very least the
"Community repositories" list were kept as-is but added a new
repository that consists of the packages that one must manually search
for this might solve some of those concerns and make the software more
available to openSUSE users (sort of like the "universe" and
"multiverse" repos for a popular Debian-based distribution)
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Re: if the community contributed?

Alexey Eromenko
Yes, "Universe" and "Multiverse" are great concept.

But online search is not enough, because I need to access those
repositories offline, they must be downloadble.

Currently openSUSE build service 100's of repositories are not
download-friendly.

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Re: if the community contributed?

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier-2
In reply to this post by Andreas Jaeger
On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Andreas Jaeger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> "Alexey Eremenko" <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> Hi Andreas,
>>
>> On a similar note I would like to complain, that today there is not
>> mechanism for introducing user's packages from Build Service into
>> Factory.
>
> Yes, this is something which needs some more thinking and discussions.
> We have so far for Factory the following requirements:
> * Novell co-maintainership
> * Possibility to deliver security updates during live time of product
> * strict legal review
>
> IMO we need some other way, perhaps some "contrib" where some of these
> do not need to apply - and also some rules on which to add to
> "factory",

This should probably be on the agenda on the next -project meeting. We
definitely need some way to move popular packages into Factory and a
repository for contributed packages. Maybe even a project to try to
match or exceed the packages in Debian's repositories...

Best,

Zonker
--
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openSUSE Community Manager
[hidden email]
http://zonker.opensuse.org/
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Re: if the community contributed?

Alexey Eromenko
Hi Zonker !

> This should probably be on the agenda on the next -project meeting. We
> definitely need some way to move popular packages into Factory and a
> repository for contributed packages.

Definitely.

>Maybe even a project to try to
> match or exceed the packages in Debian's repositories...
>
Dreamer, huh ? Debian has 18000 packages vs. 6000 in SUSE !

Anyway, I share this objective :)
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-Alexey Eromenko "Technologov"
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Re: if the community contributed?

Joaquin Sosa
In reply to this post by Alexey Eromenko
On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Alexey Eremenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Yes, "Universe" and "Multiverse" are great concept.
>
> But online search is not enough, because I need to access those
> repositories offline, they must be downloadble.
>
> Currently openSUSE build service 100's of repositories are not
> download-friendly.
>

I am talking about offline search (adding the repository locally)

You can go to Yast2 -> Software -> Community Repositories (or access a
similar menu through Yast2 -> Software -> Software management)

The great majority of the OBS repositories are not even listed there!
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Re: if the community contributed?

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier-2
In reply to this post by Alexey Eromenko
On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 11:47 AM, Alexey Eremenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Zonker !
>
>> This should probably be on the agenda on the next -project meeting. We
>> definitely need some way to move popular packages into Factory and a
>> repository for contributed packages.
>
> Definitely.

I've put it on the agenda.

>>Maybe even a project to try to
>> match or exceed the packages in Debian's repositories...
>>
> Dreamer, huh ? Debian has 18000 packages vs. 6000 in SUSE !

Yes. :-)

I didn't say it would be *easy* or *fast* but I think it should be an
objective -- at least an objective to work towards having more
packages in our repositories.

Best,

Zonker
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openSUSE Community Manager
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Re: number of packages (was: if the community contributed?)

Bugzilla from felix@derklecks.de
Hi,

> I didn't say it would be *easy* or *fast* but I think it should be an
> objective -- at least an objective to work towards having more
> packages in our repositories.

I am sorry, but I really think the quality of the existing packages
should be improved.

eclipse for example is pretty popular but still seems unmaintained
although it is in the distribution. The problems are fixed upstream and
there are bugreports about them. And I have been complaining here. :-(

So maybe it is not just the quantity but the quality which should be high.

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=293439
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=353522
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse/2007-09/msg00902.html
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2008-05/msg00580.html
...

Felix Möller


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Re: number of packages (was: if the community contributed?)

Alexey Eromenko
We need both.

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Re: number of packages (was: if the community contributed?)

Joe 'Zonker' Brockmeier-2
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from felix@derklecks.de
On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Felix Möller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> I didn't say it would be *easy* or *fast* but I think it should be an
>> objective -- at least an objective to work towards having more
>> packages in our repositories.
>
> I am sorry, but I really think the quality of the existing packages should
> be improved.

Why are you sorry about that? :-)

> eclipse for example is pretty popular but still seems unmaintained although
> it is in the distribution. The problems are fixed upstream and there are
> bugreports about them. And I have been complaining here. :-(
>
> So maybe it is not just the quantity but the quality which should be high.

Maybe? I'd say definitely.

They are not, however, mutually exclusive. Suggesting that we include
more packages in no way implied that quality is not also a goal.

Best,

Zonker
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openSUSE Community Manager
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Re: number of packages (was: if the community contributed?)

Rajko M.
In reply to this post by Alexey Eromenko
On Saturday 09 August 2008 11:18:31 am Alexey Eremenko wrote:

> We need both.

And we need more people that can handle that, so we need marketing to attract
more people, that will ask for more people, ...

We probably need place that will prioritize resources: people and machines
time.

To prioritize resources we have to know them, but we don't have human
resources department, nor list of machines and capabilities.

For human part we have user directory, but not much listed in it.
To develop that we would need more people ...

--
Regards, Rajko
http://en.opensuse.org/Portal needs helpful hands.
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Re: if the community contributed?

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Andreas Jaeger
Andreas Jaeger wrote:

> Let's look how other open source projects basically work (very
> simplified):
>
> The open source developers work on those areas that they consider
> critical and are interesting for them to work on.  They do look at bug
> reports, feature requests etc and decide what's in their view is best
> for the project.  Most look forward in a positive way to new
> developers and embrace them: They help them to get into the project,
> guide them with their first contribution, review and accept their
> patches - or explain why the patch is either of bad quality or going
> in a direction that the project is not going.

I think that's a pretty good summing up.

> YaST is an open source project!  Discussions and repositories are
> public, and the YaST team is a friendly crowd that embrace new members
> that want to contribute to YaST

I chose my wording badly - there's no doubt in my mind that openSUSE is
an open source project.  
I just have some doubts are about how open the management is - YaST is a
key element of openSUSE, but in my view, it's not really an open source
community driven project as are e.g. apache and others.  YaST is driven
by Novell/SUSE, and decisions to drop or include features appear to be
less open and not very community driven?

I don't want to flog a dead horse, and I'm also perfectly happy with the
compromise we found, but the deprecation of JFS and now more recently
LILO were clearly Novell decisions, not community decisions.

I think perhaps the case of JFS was a good start - it's still part of
YaST, yet clearly marked as unsupported.
Why not do the same with e.g. LILO ? That way you leave the door open
for someone to step in and take over the support. And maybe even submit
a patch or two.


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Re: if the community contributed?

gregkh
On Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 07:41:00PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
> I don't want to flog a dead horse, and I'm also perfectly happy with the
> compromise we found, but the deprecation of JFS and now more recently
> LILO were clearly Novell decisions, not community decisions.
>
> I think perhaps the case of JFS was a good start - it's still part of
> YaST, yet clearly marked as unsupported.

JFS is unsupported upstream, that is what drove that decision.  IBM is
no longer doing any new development of it and only very little bug work
for it, if any.

So that is why it is marked unsupported in our distro, we are just
mirroring the upstream community involvement there.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Re: if the community contributed?

Per Jessen
Greg KH wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 09, 2008 at 07:41:00PM +0200, Per Jessen wrote:
>> I don't want to flog a dead horse, and I'm also perfectly happy with
>> the compromise we found, but the deprecation of JFS and now more
>> recently LILO were clearly Novell decisions, not community decisions.
>>
>> I think perhaps the case of JFS was a good start - it's still part of
>> YaST, yet clearly marked as unsupported.
>
> JFS is unsupported upstream, that is what drove that decision.  IBM is
> no longer doing any new development of it and only very little bug
> work for it, if any.

To my knowledge, Dave Kleikamp still does active JFS support.  The
latest release of jfsutils is not even a month old.


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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