Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

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Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Roman Bysh
Hi all,

Follow question an earlier thread about the suggested default font.
Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen?

What about the fixed width font? Noto Sans has no monospace font.

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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Trent Hawkins
On 29 October 2015 at 05:54, Roman Bysh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Follow question an earlier thread about the suggested default font.
> Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen?
Yeah i second this query. Default Oxygen font set is not particularly
aesthetically pleasing!

Cheers,
Trent


>
> What about the fixed width font? Noto Sans has no monospace font.
>
> --
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>
> Roman
>
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Simon Lees


On 10/31/2015 10:55 AM, Trent Hawkins wrote:

> On 29 October 2015 at 05:54, Roman Bysh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Follow question an earlier thread about the suggested default font.
>> Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen?
> Yeah i second this query. Default Oxygen font set is not particularly
> aesthetically pleasing!
>
> Cheers,
> Trent
I'm not sure what ended up being decided / done but its now far to late
to change it.

Cheers
Simon

>
>> What about the fixed width font? Noto Sans has no monospace font.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Roman
>>
>> IRC: 551368250
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Felix Miata-3
Simon Lees composed on 2015-10-31 11:35 (UTC+1030):

> Trent Hawkins wrote:

>> Roman Bysh wrote:

>>> Follow question an earlier thread about the suggested default font.
>>> Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen?

>> Yeah i second this query. Default Oxygen font set is not particularly
>> aesthetically pleasing!

> I'm not sure what ended up being decided / done but its now far to late
> to change it.

https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898 discusses.
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Trent Hawkins
On 31 October 2015 at 12:15, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898 discusses.
Thanks for the link. Will investigate.
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Luca Beltrame
In reply to this post by Roman Bysh
Il Wed, 28 Oct 2015 14:54:31 -0400, Roman Bysh ha scritto:

> Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen?

FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.

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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Felix Miata-3
Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):

> Wed, 28 Oct 2015 14:54:31 -0400, Roman Bysh composed:

>> Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen?

> FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.

Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or suggest
who might know? Is Noto going to become a require? Will Oxygen stay a require?
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

šumski
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 09:56:50 PM Felix Miata wrote:
> Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):
> > Wed, 28 Oct 2015 14:54:31 -0400, Roman Bysh composed:
> >> Has a final decision been made to switch to Noto Sans from Oxygen?
> >
> > FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.
>
> Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or
> suggest who might know?
Because it's default font. We rather not want something like that be missing.

> Is Noto going to become a require? Will Oxygen
> stay a require?
Yes. Yes. Oxygen mono is still default monospace font (AFAICS)


Cheers,
Hrvoje

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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Felix Miata-3
šumski composed on 2015-10-31 22:07 (UTC+0100):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):

>> > FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.

>> Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or
>> suggest who might know?

> Because it's default font. We rather not want something like that be missing.

Who is we? Isn't requires supposed to be reserved for avoiding breakage or
total failure, rather than simply providing what theme, packagers and/or
upstream simply "want"? I want to *never* have to see Oxygen Sans or Oxygen
Mono on any of my own installations, which as things stand, conflicts with my
interest in running Plasma5. Needing to rpm -e --nodeps after every upgrade
gets old, but establishes that the Oxygen dependency is a non-essential edict.

>> Is Noto going to become a require? Will Oxygen
>> stay a require?

> Yes. Yes. Oxygen mono is still default monospace font (AFAICS)

I thought the same people begging for Noto for proportional were also
calmoring for Source Code Pro for monospace (not that it matters here, as
fc-match on generics here always produces a Droid)???

If "we want" is the only reason for installing any font, it should be a
suggests or recommends. Otherwise it's bloatware, which should be avoidable
by those who want lean installations. Requiring both Noto and Oxygen means
double bloat, unless most other DE's "want" them as well, or DejaVu,
intlfonts, efont-unicode-bitmap-fonts and/or others that have been being
installed by default for many years stop being part of base X and most DE
patterns.
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

šumski
On Sunday, November 01, 2015 08:12:51 AM Felix Miata wrote:

> šumski composed on 2015-10-31 22:07 (UTC+0100):
> > Felix Miata wrote:
> >> Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):
> >> > FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.
> >>
> >> Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or
> >> suggest who might know?
> >
> > Because it's default font. We rather not want something like that be
> > missing.
>
> Who is we?
We the people.

> Isn't requires supposed to be reserved for avoiding breakage or
> total failure, rather than simply providing what theme, packagers and/or
> upstream simply "want"?
Yes and no. I'd say recommends applies for additional features, and requires
for default ones. That KDE applications are working w/o Oxygen font is only an
accident.

> I want to *never* have to see Oxygen Sans or Oxygen
> Mono on any of my own installations, which as things stand, conflicts with
> my interest in running Plasma5. Needing to rpm -e --nodeps after every
> upgrade gets old, but establishes that the Oxygen dependency is a
> non-essential edict.

> >> Is Noto going to become a require? Will Oxygen
> >> stay a require?
> >
> > Yes. Yes. Oxygen mono is still default monospace font (AFAICS)
>
> I thought the same people begging for Noto for proportional were also
> calmoring for Source Code Pro for monospace (not that it matters here, as
> fc-match on generics here always produces a Droid)???
Not those people.

> If "we want" is the only reason for installing any font, it should be a
> suggests or recommends. Otherwise it's bloatware, which should be avoidable
> by those who want lean installations. Requiring both Noto and Oxygen means
> double bloat, unless most other DE's "want" them as well, or DejaVu,
> intlfonts, efont-unicode-bitmap-fonts and/or others that have been being
> installed by default for many years stop being part of base X and most DE
> patterns.
Let's agree to disagree.


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Hrvoje
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Felix Miata-3
šumski composed on 2015-11-03 19:41 (UTC+0100):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> šumski composed on 2015-10-31 22:07 (UTC+0100):

>> > Felix Miata wrote:

>> >> Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):

>> >> > FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.

>> >> Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or
>> >> suggest who might know?

>> > Because it's default font. We rather not want something like that be
>> > missing.

>> Who is we?

> We the people.

Lots of people on this planet. :-p Which people are "we"?

KDE dev upstream dev people?
KDE user people (by voting or polling)?
SLE/openSUSE KDE packager people?
Independent font expert people?
SLE/openSUSE font expert people?
People who prefer them in a direct side by side comparison of Oxygen with
similar fonts?
More than a pittance of people with poorer than average visual acuity?
A11Y or U7Y people?

>> Isn't requires supposed to be reserved for avoiding breakage or
>> total failure, rather than simply providing what theme, packagers and/or
>> upstream simply "want"?

> Yes and no. I'd say recommends applies for additional features, and requires
> for default ones.

IMO the "defaults" should require only those that the distro overall picks,
and individual DEs should not compel installation of more, merely prefer them
if/when available. Absence of a particular font family for which generically
equivalent glyphs are available doesn't *break* anything other than maybe
themers' egos.

> That KDE applications are working w/o Oxygen font is only an
> accident.

It does not look like that is the case here. Certainly 'rpm -e --nodeps
kde-oxygen-fonts' produces no observed failure here of Plasma or KDE5 apps to
start or function normally.

>> I want to *never* have to see Oxygen Sans or Oxygen
>> Mono on any of my own installations, which as things stand, conflicts with
>> my interest in running Plasma5. Needing to rpm -e --nodeps after every
>> upgrade gets old, but establishes that the Oxygen dependency is a
>> non-essential edict.

>> >> Is Noto going to become a require? Will Oxygen
>> >> stay a require?

>> > Yes. Yes. Oxygen mono is still default monospace font (AFAICS)

>> I thought the same people begging for Noto for proportional were also
>> calmoring for Source Code Pro for monospace (not that it matters here, as
>> fc-match on generics here always produces a Droid)???

> Not those people.

>> If "we want" is the only reason for installing any font, it should be a
>> suggests or recommends. Otherwise it's bloatware, which should be avoidable
>> by those who want lean installations. Requiring both Noto and Oxygen means
>> double bloat, unless most other DE's "want" them as well, or DejaVu,
>> intlfonts, efont-unicode-bitmap-fonts and/or others that have been being
>> installed by default for many years stop being part of base X and most DE
>> patterns.

> Let's agree to disagree.

Let's not, at least for now, and hear what others have to say. I looked, and
cannot find any evidence of superiority between Oxygen and similar fonts that
have been choosen for the distro overall, let alone any characteristic
justifying mandatory installation. Oxygen's typically (though slightly)
lighter apparent stroke weight actually makes them worse than average, absent
use at sizes larger than would otherwise be appropriate. See:

https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=951898
        fonts are ugly compared to Mint and Ubuntu

Samples facilitating side-by-side comparison:
http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/fonts-comps-oxy.html

Screenshots taken using the above, at various display densities, with and
without AA applied:
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-108aa0.png
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-108full.png
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-120full.png
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-132aa0.png
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-132full.png
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-168aa0.png
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-168full.png
http://fm.no-ip.com/SS/KDE/b951898-192full.png

Oxygen samples, 7pt-20pt & 9px-32px:
http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-oxygen.html

Same/similar for the others used in above comparisons:
http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-dejasans.html
http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-droidsans.html
http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-libsans.html
http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-noto.html
http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/Font/font-roboto.html
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Claudio Freire
On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 6:37 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> šumski composed on 2015-11-03 19:41 (UTC+0100):
>
> > Felix Miata wrote:
>
> >> šumski composed on 2015-10-31 22:07 (UTC+0100):
>
> >> > Felix Miata wrote:
>
> >> >> Luca Beltrame composed on 2015-10-31 19:19 (UTC):
>
> >> >> > FYI, upstream will switch to Noto for Plasma 5.5.
>
> >> >> Can you explain why Oxygen has been require rather than recommend, or
> >> >> suggest who might know?
>
> >> > Because it's default font. We rather not want something like that be
> >> > missing.
>
> >> Who is we?
>
> > We the people.
>
> Lots of people on this planet. :-p Which people are "we"?
>
> KDE dev upstream dev people?
> KDE user people (by voting or polling)?
> SLE/openSUSE KDE packager people?
> Independent font expert people?
> SLE/openSUSE font expert people?
> People who prefer them in a direct side by side comparison of Oxygen with
> similar fonts?
> More than a pittance of people with poorer than average visual acuity?
> A11Y or U7Y people?

That's too much bikeshedding for my taste.

A requires I would think is correct since you have to guarantee that
*at least one* font for each family will be available.

If other packages pull in other fonts, that's the accident.

Which font set to require is probably debatable (and has actually been
debated), but at least one has to be required or you can end up with a
fontless installation if nothing else pulls any of the required fonts.

What you should probably do is inspect which other font is replacing
Oxygen when it's removed,and figure out which package is pulling in
that font set, and then perhaps a decision can be made (maybe fix the
requires to match so that only one font set is pulled in rather than a
multitude).

If you installed the other font set manually,you cannot remove the
requires on Oxygen. That could cause breakage when people don't
install alternative fonts manually like you did.

I'm not sure why can't you just ignore Oxygen?
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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Felix Miata-3
Claudio Freire composed on 2015-11-04 19:08 (UTC-0300):

> Felix Miata wrote:

> A requires I would think is correct since you have to guarantee that
> *at least one* font for each family will be available.

Can anyone name any visual DE that ever required a particular font be
installed, and failed to function if it was not available?

> If other packages pull in other fonts, that's the accident.

> Which font set to require is probably debatable (and has actually been
> debated), but at least one has to be required or you can end up with a
> fontless installation if nothing else pulls any of the required fonts.

Even if an installation was in fact fontless to start with,

# zypper rm xorg-x11-fonts-core
Loading repository data...
Reading installed packages...
Resolving package dependencies...

The following 16 packages are going to be REMOVED:
  graphviz-gnome xf86-input-evdev xf86-input-keyboard xf86-input-mouse
xf86-input-vmmouse xf86-input-void
  xf86-video-ati xf86-video-fbdev xf86-video-intel xf86-video-modesetting
xf86-video-vesa xorg-x11-driver-video
  xorg-x11-driver-video-nouveau xorg-x11-fonts xorg-x11-fonts-core
xorg-x11-server

some font would nevertheless be installable from vtty login. Virtually all my
installations start out minimal, either X or server. It's no disaster to
forget to install some ttf package prior to starting X. It's happened here.

> What you should probably do is inspect which other font is replacing
> Oxygen when it's removed,and figure out which package is pulling in
> that font set, and then perhaps a decision can be made (maybe fix the
> requires to match so that only one font set is pulled in rather than a
> multitude).

> If you installed the other font set manually,you cannot remove the
> requires on Oxygen. That could cause breakage when people don't
> install alternative fonts manually like you did.

# rpm -q --requires dejavu-fonts
/bin/sh
/bin/sh
/bin/sh
aaa_base
coreutils
coreutils
coreutils
perl
rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) <= 3.0.4-1
rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1
rpmlib(PayloadIsLzma) <= 4.4.6-1

Looks to me like DejaVu should be more than enough as a starting point at
least for EN if not all but the most obscure locales. According to bug 951898
it looks like just about any DE pattern including any kind of openSUSE
branding is destined to expand DejaVu's coverage via Noto and/or Roboto
and/or Source Code Pro, if it hasn't already.

> I'm not sure why can't you just ignore Oxygen?

1: wastes updates time
2: wastes updates bandwidth
3: wastes fontconfig overhead
4: wastes disk space
5: Fontconfig can provide it, thus web pages that call it will succeed in
deference to user wishes
6: violates spirit of traditional FOSS freedom of configurability to require
anything whose absence doesn't break necessary functionality
7: Bloat purely on account of personal taste of someone other than a system
user/owner.

Suggests and/or recommends should be sufficient for any package for which
functional breakage would not result from its absence.
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Wolfgang Bauer
Am Mittwoch, 4. November 2015, 18:17:27 schrieb Felix Miata:

> > I'm not sure why can't you just ignore Oxygen?
>
> 1: wastes updates time
> 2: wastes updates bandwidth
> 3: wastes fontconfig overhead
> 4: wastes disk space
> 5: Fontconfig can provide it, thus web pages that call it will succeed in
> deference to user wishes
> 6: violates spirit of traditional FOSS freedom of configurability to require
> anything whose absence doesn't break necessary functionality
> 7: Bloat purely on account of personal taste of someone other than a system
> user/owner.
 
Come on, this is getting ridiculous...
We are talking about a package with 3! true type fonts here that is 67 KiB in
size! (installed on your hard disk it takes 150 KiB)

Your mails on the topic probably wasted more bandwidth already... ;)

> Suggests and/or recommends should be sufficient for any package for which
> functional breakage would not result from its absence.

There is one functional breakage I am aware of if the Oxygen fonts are not
installed:
Konsole gets a proportional fallback font, which results in totally broken
layout/cursor placement.

And as already has been mentioned, Plasma 5.5 will switch to using Noto as
default anyway (upstream).
Although I'm not sure what will happen to the monospace default.
If it stays at Oxygen Mono, we could split out this one font to a separate
package I suppose, maybe that would make you happy.

Kind Regards,
Wolfgang

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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Roman Bysh
On 11/05/2015 07:51 AM, Wolfgang Bauer wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 4. November 2015, 18:17:27 schrieb Felix Miata:
> >> I'm not sure why can't you just ignore Oxygen?
> >
> > 1: wastes updates time
> > 2: wastes updates bandwidth
> > 3: wastes fontconfig overhead
> > 4: wastes disk space
> > 5: Fontconfig can provide it, thus web pages that call it will succeed in
> > deference to user wishes
> > 6: violates spirit of traditional FOSS freedom of configurability to require
> > anything whose absence doesn't break necessary functionality
> > 7: Bloat purely on account of personal taste of someone other than a system
> > user/owner.
>  
> Come on, this is getting ridiculous...
> We are talking about a package with 3! true type fonts here that is 67 KiB in
> size! (installed on your hard disk it takes 150 KiB)
>
> Your mails on the topic probably wasted more bandwidth already... ;)
>
> > Suggests and/or recommends should be sufficient for any package for which
> > functional breakage would not result from its absence.
>
> There is one functional breakage I am aware of if the Oxygen fonts are not
> installed:
> Konsole gets a proportional fallback font, which results in totally broken
> layout/cursor placement.
>
> And as already has been mentioned, Plasma 5.5 will switch to using Noto as
> default anyway (upstream).
> Although I'm not sure what will happen to the monospace default.
> If it stays at Oxygen Mono, we could split out this one font to a separate
> package I suppose, maybe that would make you happy.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Wolfgang
>
That is great news. When can we expect Plasma 5.5 to appear in Tumbleweed?

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Re: Will the default font for Leap 42.1 GA be Noto Sans?

Wolfgang Bauer
Am Freitag, 6. November 2015, 16:11:35 schrieb Roman Bysh:
> That is great news. When can we expect Plasma 5.5 to appear in Tumbleweed?

It's going to be released on December 8th, and should be in Tumbleweed not too
long afterwards (2 weeks maybe?).

But you don't have to wait for that just because you prefer different fonts.

You can configure the default fonts to what you like yourself in
systemsettings5 ("Configure Desktop")->Font. Some applications have their own
settings too that will override the standard ones though, e.g. you can set a
different one in Konsole's profile settings (only affects Konsole then of
course).

Kind Regards,
Wolfgang

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