Why is this acceptable?

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Why is this acceptable?

PatrickD Garvey
I do not understand decisions such as documented in
https://en.opensuse.org/Icecream, "The documentation used to live in
this page, but moved into a markdown README hosted under
https://github.com/icecc/icecream. To report an issue or fix a
problem, use github. You can fork the repo to edit the README.md just
fine."
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Ancor Gonzalez Sosa
On 12/28/2016 03:10 AM, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
> I do not understand decisions such as documented in
> https://en.opensuse.org/Icecream, "The documentation used to live in
> this page, but moved into a markdown README hosted under
> https://github.com/icecc/icecream. To report an issue or fix a
> problem, use github. You can fork the repo to edit the README.md just
> fine."

First of all, this is the first time I hear about Icecream and I don't
know the developers. That been said, I perfectly understand they moved
the documentation to Github.

1) Github is the platform where the real development of Icecream
happens. It's simply natural for developers to use the same mechanisms
(pull requests) and platform to maintain the documentation.

2) On the other hand, almost everybody on the open source (and/or free
software) universe is using Github nowadays. Everybody who is in the
position to help (developers and users) is used to Github and, most
likely, has an account there. You don't need an openSUSE account to
contribute documentation.

3) The content in Github is way more visible than the one at our wiki.
The openSUSE wiki is kind of a niche that only we use (and that we are
using less and less, IMHO). Try to search something in Google (or any
other popular search engine) that is both in Github and in our wiki. The
first one will be found and in a high position, for the latter I'm not
so sure.

In short, IMHO Github is the natural choice to keep the documentation of
a software project. We shouldn't be surprised if people moves away from
the openSUSE wiki for that purpose.

Cheers.
--
Ancor González Sosa
YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

PatrickD Garvey
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 12:40 AM, Ancor Gonzalez Sosa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 12/28/2016 03:10 AM, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
>> I do not understand decisions such as documented in
>> https://en.opensuse.org/Icecream, "The documentation used to live in
>> this page, but moved into a markdown README hosted under
>> https://github.com/icecc/icecream. To report an issue or fix a
>> problem, use github. You can fork the repo to edit the README.md just
>> fine."
>
> First of all, this is the first time I hear about Icecream and I don't
> know the developers. That been said, I perfectly understand they moved
> the documentation to Github.
>
> 1) Github is the platform where the real development of Icecream
> happens. It's simply natural for developers to use the same mechanisms
> (pull requests) and platform to maintain the documentation.
>
> 2) On the other hand, almost everybody on the open source (and/or free
> software) universe is using Github nowadays. Everybody who is in the
> position to help (developers and users) is used to Github and, most
> likely, has an account there. You don't need an openSUSE account to
> contribute documentation.
>
> 3) The content in Github is way more visible than the one at our wiki.
> The openSUSE wiki is kind of a niche that only we use (and that we are
> using less and less, IMHO). Try to search something in Google (or any
> other popular search engine) that is both in Github and in our wiki. The
> first one will be found and in a high position, for the latter I'm not
> so sure.
>
> In short, IMHO Github is the natural choice to keep the documentation of
> a software project. We shouldn't be surprised if people moves away from
> the openSUSE wiki for that purpose.
>
> Cheers.
> --
> Ancor González Sosa
> YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH

OK, I thought that would be the basic direction of an answer, but the
openSUSE wiki article claims icecream is a SUSE LLC employee created
program. Doesn't it lose that identity when it is hosted on
GitHub.com? Shouldn't it be hosted on GitLab.SUSE.de? That is, to
become an official SUSE product, it could be developed on GitHub if an
individual so chose, but it would not be official until that
individual issued a pull request and it was accepted.

And, then there is the challenge of learning a new syntax to do an
existing task. This makes the third syntax I've seen used in writing
*SUSE documentation. Doc.openSUSE.org requires one to know how to use
a proprietary variant of Docbook. En.openSUSE.org requires knowledge
of WikiMediA syntax. And icecream is written in Markdown.

And let's not leave out the desire to make this documentation
available to an international audience. I'm not a translator, so I'm
not that familiar with how many syntactical structures are required
across the documentation variants, but I've seen emotional discussions
when someone proposes a change in the translation workflow.

All these "solutions" break the *SUSE community into smaller and
smaller cooperative groups and increase the cost of producing a
quality offering. That's the frustration generator for me.

Respectfully,
PatrickD
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Sarah Julia Kriesch

> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Dezember 2016 um 17:33 Uhr
> Von: "PatrickD Garvey" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Ancor Gonzalez Sosa" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "_openSUSE Wiki Mailing List - [hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>
>
> OK, I thought that would be the basic direction of an answer, but the
> openSUSE wiki article claims icecream is a SUSE LLC employee created
> program. Doesn't it lose that identity when it is hosted on
> GitHub.com? Shouldn't it be hosted on GitLab.SUSE.de? That is, to
> become an official SUSE product, it could be developed on GitHub if an
> individual so chose, but it would not be official until that
> individual issued a pull request and it was accepted.
It isn't important, whether github or gitlab will be used. Both platforms are using the same technology "git".
Github is public and everybody can contribute. SUSE is an open source company and has moved most parts of software development from private infrastructure to github in the last years. Do you want to be able to work in the different projects (in documentation) or do you want to work only in the wiki without any knowledge about the special technology behind that all?
I would prefer the first one.
>
> And, then there is the challenge of learning a new syntax to do an
> existing task. This makes the third syntax I've seen used in writing
> *SUSE documentation. Doc.openSUSE.org requires one to know how to use
> a proprietary variant of Docbook. En.openSUSE.org requires knowledge
> of WikiMediA syntax. And icecream is written in Markdown.
>
That's the reason, why we have got different mailing lists and teams. You will use different technologies in different teams.
I can add Weblate to your list (translation team). You can choose what you want to do and with what/ where you want to work with. I hadn't any knowledge about git in my first years at openSUSE, too. I contributed to teams where I knew the used technologies and it was easy to start there.
Any time you will have a time stamp, where you want to know/ learn more and you will use other technologies, too. ;)

> And let's not leave out the desire to make this documentation
> available to an international audience. I'm not a translator, so I'm
> not that familiar with how many syntactical structures are required
> across the documentation variants, but I've seen emotional discussions
> when someone proposes a change in the translation workflow.
You will need improvements in workflows in communities like in companies.
Tell us your ideas and we can use it, if it can make all better. You don't need to be a translator. You can improve/ update the documentation in the English wiki, too. That's one syntax.
git isn't a big difference. After some time in our wiki you will understand similarities and use the other platform like naturally.
>
> All these "solutions" break the *SUSE community into smaller and
> smaller cooperative groups and increase the cost of producing a
> quality offering. That's the frustration generator for me.
>
> Respectfully,
> PatrickD
> --
We have got different groups for getting the quality and you can choose where you want to contribute. You don't need mixing it all! Being in one group is enough for the fist time. After that you can grow into other areas, too.

Best regards,
Sarah
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

PatrickD Garvey
On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 3:12 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Dezember 2016 um 17:33 Uhr
>> Von: "PatrickD Garvey" <[hidden email]>
>> An: "Ancor Gonzalez Sosa" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "_openSUSE Wiki Mailing List - [hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>>
>>
>> OK, I thought that would be the basic direction of an answer, but the
>> openSUSE wiki article claims icecream is a SUSE LLC employee created
>> program. Doesn't it lose that identity when it is hosted on
>> GitHub.com? Shouldn't it be hosted on GitLab.SUSE.de? That is, to
>> become an official SUSE product, it could be developed on GitHub if an
>> individual so chose, but it would not be official until that
>> individual issued a pull request and it was accepted.
> It isn't important, whether github or gitlab will be used. Both platforms are using the same technology "git".
> Github is public and everybody can contribute. SUSE is an open source company and has moved most parts of software development from private infrastructure to github in the last years. Do you want to be able to work in the different projects (in documentation) or do you want to work only in the wiki without any knowledge about the special technology behind that all?
> I would prefer the first one.
>>
>> And, then there is the challenge of learning a new syntax to do an
>> existing task. This makes the third syntax I've seen used in writing
>> *SUSE documentation. Doc.openSUSE.org requires one to know how to use
>> a proprietary variant of Docbook. En.openSUSE.org requires knowledge
>> of WikiMediA syntax. And icecream is written in Markdown.
>>
> That's the reason, why we have got different mailing lists and teams. You will use different technologies in different teams.
> I can add Weblate to your list (translation team). You can choose what you want to do and with what/ where you want to work with. I hadn't any knowledge about git in my first years at openSUSE, too. I contributed to teams where I knew the used technologies and it was easy to start there.
> Any time you will have a time stamp, where you want to know/ learn more and you will use other technologies, too. ;)
>
>> And let's not leave out the desire to make this documentation
>> available to an international audience. I'm not a translator, so I'm
>> not that familiar with how many syntactical structures are required
>> across the documentation variants, but I've seen emotional discussions
>> when someone proposes a change in the translation workflow.
> You will need improvements in workflows in communities like in companies.
> Tell us your ideas and we can use it, if it can make all better. You don't need to be a translator. You can improve/ update the documentation in the English wiki, too. That's one syntax.
> git isn't a big difference. After some time in our wiki you will understand similarities and use the other platform like naturally.
>>
>> All these "solutions" break the *SUSE community into smaller and
>> smaller cooperative groups and increase the cost of producing a
>> quality offering. That's the frustration generator for me.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> PatrickD
>> --
> We have got different groups for getting the quality and you can choose where you want to contribute. You don't need mixing it all! Being in one group is enough for the fist time. After that you can grow into other areas, too.
>
> Best regards,
> Sarah

Sarah,
To put my response to your reply succinctly, you're not seeing the
world through my eyes.

As I understand it, your perception of the variety of tools used to
accomplish the tasks required to support the openSUSE project and the
SUSE product is an opportunity to learn many things. My perception is
each learning opportunity is a use of time that is needed to produce
the components of the project/product that is non-productive if one
has already learned a tool and it's syntax that does the job.

Learning a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, ...
documentation tool is non-productive when my objective is to provide
high quality documentation. The fact there are three different
syntax's that are used by three different documentation producing
sub-communities also increases the effort required to coordinate the
work of those sub-communities such that the same documentation is
produced only once, not three times. The fact there is a link in the
openSUSE wiki to a GitHub file indicates it takes an unnecessary
expenditure of time for a new member of the openSUSE project just to
locate the documentation, let alone keep it up to date.

Producing software products is still a very labor-intensive process.
Diverting available time to repeated re-learning of a mastered skill
is a serious cost to the quality, as well as the quantity, of the
output.
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2016-12-30 19:34, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 3:12 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch <> wrote:


> Sarah,
> To put my response to your reply succinctly, you're not seeing the
> world through my eyes.
>
> As I understand it, your perception of the variety of tools used to
> accomplish the tasks required to support the openSUSE project and the
> SUSE product is an opportunity to learn many things. My perception is
> each learning opportunity is a use of time that is needed to produce
> the components of the project/product that is non-productive if one
> has already learned a tool and it's syntax that does the job.
>
> Learning a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, ...
> documentation tool is non-productive when my objective is to provide
> high quality documentation. The fact there are three different
> syntax's that are used by three different documentation producing
> sub-communities also increases the effort required to coordinate the
> work of those sub-communities such that the same documentation is
> produced only once, not three times. The fact there is a link in the
> openSUSE wiki to a GitHub file indicates it takes an unnecessary
> expenditure of time for a new member of the openSUSE project just to
> locate the documentation, let alone keep it up to date.
>
> Producing software products is still a very labor-intensive process.
> Diverting available time to repeated re-learning of a mastered skill
> is a serious cost to the quality, as well as the quantity, of the
> output.
With my user and tech writer hat on, I agree.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Sarah Julia Kriesch

> Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Dezember 2016 um 23:00 Uhr
> Von: "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>
> On 2016-12-30 19:34, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 3:12 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch <> wrote:
>
>
> > Sarah,
> > To put my response to your reply succinctly, you're not seeing the
> > world through my eyes.
> >
> > As I understand it, your perception of the variety of tools used to
> > accomplish the tasks required to support the openSUSE project and the
> > SUSE product is an opportunity to learn many things. My perception is
> > each learning opportunity is a use of time that is needed to produce
> > the components of the project/product that is non-productive if one
> > has already learned a tool and it's syntax that does the job.
> >
> > Learning a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, ...
> > documentation tool is non-productive when my objective is to provide
> > high quality documentation. The fact there are three different
> > syntax's that are used by three different documentation producing
> > sub-communities also increases the effort required to coordinate the
> > work of those sub-communities such that the same documentation is
> > produced only once, not three times. The fact there is a link in the
> > openSUSE wiki to a GitHub file indicates it takes an unnecessary
> > expenditure of time for a new member of the openSUSE project just to
> > locate the documentation, let alone keep it up to date.
> >
> > Producing software products is still a very labor-intensive process.
> > Diverting available time to repeated re-learning of a mastered skill
> > is a serious cost to the quality, as well as the quantity, of the
> > output.
>
> With my user and tech writer hat on, I agree.
>
> --
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
> Carlos E. R.
Thanks for your feedback!

You read the view of a Software Developer by Ancor (YaST Developer at SUSE), too.
@Ancor: Thanks that you answered the question with Github of the view of somebody in the Development at SUSE. :-)

Open Source Developers are using Github and write their documentation there. Ancor and the YaST Team are doing that for YaST here: http://yast.github.io/documentation

The normal user (user of openSUSE) wants to use a wiki of their Linux distribution. That can give the best overview about the operating system. We (wiki Team) are responsible for updating it. We don't have many Developers on the mailing list.
That was the reason for linking the Github documentation on the wiki page.
It is difficult to get a Developer for writing his documentation on both portals (Github and wiki). They have got the same meaning like you as a Technical Writer. They want to use one platform and commit their code and documentation on one way.

I have got the view of a System Administrator: I want to have happy cumstomers and developers!
What can I do for having both? I view the work of developers on Github/ mailing list/ release notes until now and updated the wiki. I live freedom, that everybody can contribute where he likes.

One Slogan I learned in my first job: "Happy cows give better milk!" Is the cow more happy while running free or being locked-in?
You can transfer it to an open source project:
-> Happy Developers (with freedom) develop better software.
-> Happy System Administrators (with freedom) make better system administration.
-> Happy Technical Writers (with freedom) write better documentations.

Now we have got the questions, why we have got a third documentation tool. This tool can create a completely documentation in pdf. Some customers want to have a printed or pdf version of a documentation. Every other distrubtion has got it beside of their wiki, too. The Documentation Team at SUSE is doing most parts of this job at the moment. We should ask Christoph of this team after his view and meaning about documentations with different tools.
@Christoph: How is your job with different tools (wiki/ doc/ Github)? Do you have ideas for improvements?

I want to have meanings of all different views in our wiki team before finding a solution. I want to have happy Contributors in our wiki Team. ;-)

Enjoy the last hours of this year and have a happy new year!
Best regards,
Sarah
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2016-12-31 13:51, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:
>
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Dezember 2016 um 23:00 Uhr
>> Von: "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>

...

>>> Producing software products is still a very labor-intensive process.
>>> Diverting available time to repeated re-learning of a mastered skill
>>> is a serious cost to the quality, as well as the quantity, of the
>>> output.
>>
>> With my user and tech writer hat on, I agree.
>>

> Thanks for your feedback!

Welcome :-)


> You read the view of a Software Developer by Ancor (YaST Developer at SUSE), too.
> @Ancor: Thanks that you answered the question with Github of the view of somebody in the Development at SUSE. :-)
>
> Open Source Developers are using Github and write their documentation there. Ancor and the YaST Team are doing that for YaST here: http://yast.github.io/documentation
>
> The normal user (user of openSUSE) wants to use a wiki of their Linux distribution. That can give the best overview about the operating system. We (wiki Team) are responsible for updating it. We don't have many Developers on the mailing list.
> That was the reason for linking the Github documentation on the wiki page.
> It is difficult to get a Developer for writing his documentation on both portals (Github and wiki). They have got the same meaning like you as a Technical Writer. They want to use one platform and commit their code and documentation on one way.
>
> I have got the view of a System Administrator: I want to have happy cumstomers and developers!
> What can I do for having both? I view the work of developers on Github/ mailing list/ release notes until now and updated the wiki. I live freedom, that everybody can contribute where he likes.
Yes, I can well understand they don't wish to write documentation in
several different platforms.


> One Slogan I learned in my first job: "Happy cows give better milk!" Is the cow more happy while running free or being locked-in?
> You can transfer it to an open source project:
> -> Happy Developers (with freedom) develop better software.
> -> Happy System Administrators (with freedom) make better system administration.
> -> Happy Technical Writers (with freedom) write better documentations.
>
> Now we have got the questions, why we have got a third documentation tool. This tool can create a completely documentation in pdf. Some customers want to have a printed or pdf version of a documentation. Every other distrubtion has got it beside of their wiki, too. The Documentation Team at SUSE is doing most parts of this job at the moment. We should ask Christoph of this team after his view and meaning about documentations with different tools.
> @Christoph: How is your job with different tools (wiki/ doc/ Github)? Do you have ideas for improvements?
>
> I want to have meanings of all different views in our wiki team before finding a solution. I want to have happy Contributors in our wiki Team. ;-)
Me, I find writing on the wiki a bit cumbersome, but it is an easy
access place for both writers and readers.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Sarah Julia Kriesch


> Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Dezember 2016 um 15:30 Uhr
> Von: "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>
> On 2016-12-31 13:51, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:
> >
> >> Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Dezember 2016 um 23:00 Uhr
> >> Von: "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
>
> ...
>
> >>> Producing software products is still a very labor-intensive process.
> >>> Diverting available time to repeated re-learning of a mastered skill
> >>> is a serious cost to the quality, as well as the quantity, of the
> >>> output.
> >>
> >> With my user and tech writer hat on, I agree.
> >>
>
> > Thanks for your feedback!
>
> Welcome :-)
>
>
> > You read the view of a Software Developer by Ancor (YaST Developer at SUSE), too.
> > @Ancor: Thanks that you answered the question with Github of the view of somebody in the Development at SUSE. :-)
> >
> > Open Source Developers are using Github and write their documentation there. Ancor and the YaST Team are doing that for YaST here: http://yast.github.io/documentation
> >
> > The normal user (user of openSUSE) wants to use a wiki of their Linux distribution. That can give the best overview about the operating system. We (wiki Team) are responsible for updating it. We don't have many Developers on the mailing list.
> > That was the reason for linking the Github documentation on the wiki page.
> > It is difficult to get a Developer for writing his documentation on both portals (Github and wiki). They have got the same meaning like you as a Technical Writer. They want to use one platform and commit their code and documentation on one way.
> >
> > I have got the view of a System Administrator: I want to have happy cumstomers and developers!
> > What can I do for having both? I view the work of developers on Github/ mailing list/ release notes until now and updated the wiki. I live freedom, that everybody can contribute where he likes.
>
> Yes, I can well understand they don't wish to write documentation in
> several different platforms.
>
>
> > One Slogan I learned in my first job: "Happy cows give better milk!" Is the cow more happy while running free or being locked-in?
> > You can transfer it to an open source project:
> > -> Happy Developers (with freedom) develop better software.
> > -> Happy System Administrators (with freedom) make better system administration.
> > -> Happy Technical Writers (with freedom) write better documentations.
> >
> > Now we have got the questions, why we have got a third documentation tool. This tool can create a completely documentation in pdf. Some customers want to have a printed or pdf version of a documentation. Every other distrubtion has got it beside of their wiki, too. The Documentation Team at SUSE is doing most parts of this job at the moment. We should ask Christoph of this team after his view and meaning about documentations with different tools.
> > @Christoph: How is your job with different tools (wiki/ doc/ Github)? Do you have ideas for improvements?
> >
> > I want to have meanings of all different views in our wiki team before finding a solution. I want to have happy Contributors in our wiki Team. ;-)
>
> Me, I find writing on the wiki a bit cumbersome, but it is an easy
> access place for both writers and readers.
>
Can you describe what "a bit cumbersome" is?
You can fix only issues, if you know the problem.

Best regards,
Sarah
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

PatrickD Garvey
In reply to this post by Sarah Julia Kriesch
Ms. Kriesch,

Please let me try again to share the essence of my world view:

Why do you use the character string "Sarah Julia Kriesch" in the From:
field of your email? Are you not free to use only the character string
"ada.lovelace@" and a domain name to make the email system properly
deliver your writing?
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Sarah Julia Kriesch


> Gesendet: Sonntag, 01. Januar 2017 um 17:55 Uhr
> Von: "PatrickD Garvey" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Sarah Julia Kriesch" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "_openSUSE Wiki Mailing List - [hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>
> Ms. Kriesch,
>
> Please let me try again to share the essence of my world view:
>
> Why do you use the character string "Sarah Julia Kriesch" in the From:
> field of your email? Are you not free to use only the character string
> "ada.lovelace@" and a domain name to make the email system properly
> deliver your writing?
>
Why do you say "Ms. Kriesch"? We are a community and speak with our first names.
I am a volunteer like you and I want to speak with you as an equal.

Sarah Julia Kriesch is my real name and AdaLovelace my nick name in the community. Most Community Members are using their real names on mailing lists, just as I. I have a special email alias for openSUSE that it won't be mixed with private mails.

I use another name as a nick name, because my education company wasn't allowed to know my contributions at openSUSE 5 years ago. They didn't want to see me in any open source communities. My online (community) friends said, I should use this nick name, because I would have the same CV like Ada Lovelace. She wasn't allowed to work in Computer Science and did it for her own. I did that (self-studying and with support in communities), too. That is a long time ago now.
I use my nick name combined with my real name. All people in the community know me with my real name.

Does that explain all?

Best regards,
Sarah

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Re: Why is this acceptable?

PatrickD Garvey
On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Sarah Julia Kriesch <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 01. Januar 2017 um 17:55 Uhr
>> Von: "PatrickD Garvey" <[hidden email]>
>> An: "Sarah Julia Kriesch" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "_openSUSE Wiki Mailing List - [hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>>
>> Ms. Kriesch,
>>
>> Please let me try again to share the essence of my world view:
>>
>> Why do you use the character string "Sarah Julia Kriesch" in the From:
>> field of your email? Are you not free to use only the character string
>> "ada.lovelace@" and a domain name to make the email system properly
>> deliver your writing?
>>
> Why do you say "Ms. Kriesch"? We are a community and speak with our first names.
> I am a volunteer like you and I want to speak with you as an equal.
>
> Sarah Julia Kriesch is my real name and AdaLovelace my nick name in the community. Most Community Members are using their real names on mailing lists, just as I. I have a special email alias for openSUSE that it won't be mixed with private mails.
>
> I use another name as a nick name, because my education company wasn't allowed to know my contributions at openSUSE 5 years ago. They didn't want to see me in any open source communities. My online (community) friends said, I should use this nick name, because I would have the same CV like Ada Lovelace. She wasn't allowed to work in Computer Science and did it for her own. I did that (self-studying and with support in communities), too. That is a long time ago now.
> I use my nick name combined with my real name. All people in the community know me with my real name.
>
> Does that explain all?
>
> Best regards,
> Sarah
>

Yes, thank you, it does explain all I need to know to illustrate the
point I'm trying to share with you.

When one joins a group of other people for a purpose, one expects to
do some things that the group thinks are important, like keep your
private life disconnected from your corporate life in some cases and
associate it for the benefit of both in other cases, depending upon
the groups involved.

I would like to suggest that one of the things one should expect to do
when one joins a GNU/Linux distribution project is store one's output
somewhere that is obviously linked with the project, not on some
community server not associated with the project. I think I should
store anything I do for the openSUSE project somewhere in the
openSUSE.org domain, not in a RedHat.org or Canonical.org domain or a
SourceForge.net or GitHub.com domain.

Does that seem reasonable to you?
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Sarah Julia Kriesch


> Gesendet: Sonntag, 01. Januar 2017 um 23:16 Uhr
> Von: "PatrickD Garvey" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Sarah Julia Kriesch" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "_openSUSE Wiki Mailing List - [hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Sarah Julia Kriesch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> When one joins a group of other people for a purpose, one expects to
> do some things that the group thinks are important, like keep your
> private life disconnected from your corporate life in some cases and
> associate it for the benefit of both in other cases, depending upon
> the groups involved.
>
> I would like to suggest that one of the things one should expect to do
> when one joins a GNU/Linux distribution project is store one's output
> somewhere that is obviously linked with the project, not on some
> community server not associated with the project. I think I should
> store anything I do for the openSUSE project somewhere in the
> openSUSE.org domain, not in a RedHat.org or Canonical.org domain or a
> SourceForge.net or GitHub.com domain.
>
> Does that seem reasonable to you?
> --
openSUSE is an organization on Github and has got all projects there like other open source projects, too.
You can see ( https://github.com/opensuse/ ) that is associated with the project.
We have got - additional to that - our own infrastructure incl. wiki server. These servers are running with  opensuse.org domains. We wouldn't use RedHat or Canonical any time, because they aren't sponsors of openSUSE.
Our infrastructure is hosted by SUSE.

Your output will be stored, too. You get points for your work and any time you can apply for a Membership.
Your wiki output can be watched here: https://en.opensuse.org/Special:Contributions/PatrickDGarvey

Our social network which will also used for membership applications is here: https://connect.opensuse.org 
We do the same like other GNU/ Linux distribution projects like Fedora and Debian.
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

PatrickD Garvey
On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 3:08 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 01. Januar 2017 um 23:16 Uhr
>> Von: "PatrickD Garvey" <[hidden email]>
>> An: "Sarah Julia Kriesch" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "_openSUSE Wiki Mailing List - [hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Sarah Julia Kriesch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> When one joins a group of other people for a purpose, one expects to
>> do some things that the group thinks are important, like keep your
>> private life disconnected from your corporate life in some cases and
>> associate it for the benefit of both in other cases, depending upon
>> the groups involved.
>>
>> I would like to suggest that one of the things one should expect to do
>> when one joins a GNU/Linux distribution project is store one's output
>> somewhere that is obviously linked with the project, not on some
>> community server not associated with the project. I think I should
>> store anything I do for the openSUSE project somewhere in the
>> openSUSE.org domain, not in a RedHat.org or Canonical.org domain or a
>> SourceForge.net or GitHub.com domain.
>>
>> Does that seem reasonable to you?
>> --
> openSUSE is an organization on Github and has got all projects there like other open source projects, too.
> You can see ( https://github.com/opensuse/ ) that is associated with the project.
> We have got - additional to that - our own infrastructure incl. wiki server. These servers are running with  opensuse.org domains. We wouldn't use RedHat or Canonical any time, because they aren't sponsors of openSUSE.
> Our infrastructure is hosted by SUSE.
>
> Your output will be stored, too. You get points for your work and any time you can apply for a Membership.
> Your wiki output can be watched here: https://en.opensuse.org/Special:Contributions/PatrickDGarvey
>
> Our social network which will also used for membership applications is here: https://connect.opensuse.org
> We do the same like other GNU/ Linux distribution projects like Fedora and Debian.

"openSUSE is an organization on Github and has got all projects there"
Do you mean to imply that every source file that began life as part of
the openSUSE project and continues to be developed in the openSUSE
project can be found in the https://github.com/opensuse/ structure?
(Just looking for complete communication of your world view, here. I'm
sorry my writing often slips into what appears to be criticism, but
it's really just seeking clear communication.)
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Ancor Gonzalez Sosa
In reply to this post by Sarah Julia Kriesch
On 12/31/2016 01:51 PM, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:

>
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Dezember 2016 um 23:00 Uhr
>> Von: "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>>
>> On 2016-12-30 19:34, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
>>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 3:12 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch <> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Sarah,
>>> To put my response to your reply succinctly, you're not seeing the
>>> world through my eyes.
>>>
>>> As I understand it, your perception of the variety of tools used to
>>> accomplish the tasks required to support the openSUSE project and the
>>> SUSE product is an opportunity to learn many things. My perception is
>>> each learning opportunity is a use of time that is needed to produce
>>> the components of the project/product that is non-productive if one
>>> has already learned a tool and it's syntax that does the job.
>>>
>>> Learning a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, ...
>>> documentation tool is non-productive when my objective is to provide
>>> high quality documentation. The fact there are three different
>>> syntax's that are used by three different documentation producing
>>> sub-communities also increases the effort required to coordinate the
>>> work of those sub-communities such that the same documentation is
>>> produced only once, not three times. The fact there is a link in the
>>> openSUSE wiki to a GitHub file indicates it takes an unnecessary
>>> expenditure of time for a new member of the openSUSE project just to
>>> locate the documentation, let alone keep it up to date.
>>>
>>> Producing software products is still a very labor-intensive process.
>>> Diverting available time to repeated re-learning of a mastered skill
>>> is a serious cost to the quality, as well as the quantity, of the
>>> output.
>>
>> With my user and tech writer hat on, I agree.
>>
>> --
>> Cheers / Saludos,
>>
>> Carlos E. R.
> Thanks for your feedback!
>
> You read the view of a Software Developer by Ancor (YaST Developer at SUSE), too.
> @Ancor: Thanks that you answered the question with Github of the view of somebody in the Development at SUSE. :-)
>
> Open Source Developers are using Github and write their documentation there. Ancor and the YaST Team are doing that for YaST here: http://yast.github.io/documentation

Well, in fact we are using Github for the developer-oriented
documentation and keeping the wiki for the user-oriented documentation.

In my original mail I already explained why Github is the right place to
reach potential developers. And it's not realistic to expect translated
documentation for developers (they will have to communicate in English
to get the patches accepted anyways). That's why we decided it was fine
to leave the rather inconvenient (for our purposes) wiki behind. But
just for developer doc.

We don't plan to move the user documentation because we see the
strengths of the wiki for that (it's a known central place, it's known
by our community of translators, etc.).

> The normal user (user of openSUSE) wants to use a wiki of their Linux distribution. That can give the best overview about the operating system. We (wiki Team) are responsible for updating it. We don't have many Developers on the mailing list.
> That was the reason for linking the Github documentation on the wiki page.
> It is difficult to get a Developer for writing his documentation on both portals (Github and wiki). They have got the same meaning like you as a Technical Writer. They want to use one platform and commit their code and documentation on one way.

If you want them to use any platform different than Markdown files at
Github, you have to make sure the extra effort pays off for them.

> I have got the view of a System Administrator: I want to have happy cumstomers and developers!
> What can I do for having both? I view the work of developers on Github/ mailing list/ release notes until now and updated the wiki. I live freedom, that everybody can contribute where he likes.
>
> One Slogan I learned in my first job: "Happy cows give better milk!" Is the cow more happy while running free or being locked-in?
> You can transfer it to an open source project:
> -> Happy Developers (with freedom) develop better software.
> -> Happy System Administrators (with freedom) make better system administration.
> -> Happy Technical Writers (with freedom) write better documentations.
>
> Now we have got the questions, why we have got a third documentation tool. This tool can create a completely documentation in pdf. Some customers want to have a printed or pdf version of a documentation. Every other distrubtion has got it beside of their wiki, too. The Documentation Team at SUSE is doing most parts of this job at the moment. We should ask Christoph of this team after his view and meaning about documentations with different tools.
> @Christoph: How is your job with different tools (wiki/ doc/ Github)? Do you have ideas for improvements?
>
> I want to have meanings of all different views in our wiki team before finding a solution. I want to have happy Contributors in our wiki Team. ;-)

And if we are talking about variety of tools, don't forget we have two
for translators: Weblate for translating software and the wiki for
translating... well, for translating the wiki.

Theoretically, Weblate is powerful enough to be used to translate
different sources, including a Wiki, stuff coming from Github, etc. But
that of course means that somebody needs to set the system.

Tools... the never-ending strength/weakness of the openSUSE project...

> Enjoy the last hours of this year and have a happy new year!
> Best regards,
> Sarah

Happy new year.

--
Ancor González Sosa
YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Christian Boltz-5
In reply to this post by PatrickD Garvey
Helllo,

Am Sonntag, 1. Januar 2017, 14:16:44 CET schrieb PatrickD Garvey:
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:

> > Why do you say "Ms. Kriesch"? We are a community and speak with our
> > first names. I am a volunteer like you and I want to speak with you
> > as an equal.

I even heard people joking that saying "Mr./Ms. $lastname" to someone in
an open source project is a way to show you are mad at them ;-)

> Yes, thank you, it does explain all I need to know to illustrate the
> point I'm trying to share with you.
>
> When one joins a group of other people for a purpose, one expects to
> do some things that the group thinks are important, like keep your
> private life disconnected from your corporate life in some cases and
> associate it for the benefit of both in other cases, depending upon
> the groups involved.
>
> I would like to suggest that one of the things one should expect to do
> when one joins a GNU/Linux distribution project is store one's output
> somewhere that is obviously linked with the project, not on some
> community server not associated with the project. I think I should
> store anything I do for the openSUSE project somewhere in the
> openSUSE.org domain, not in a RedHat.org or Canonical.org domain or a
> SourceForge.net or GitHub.com domain.

You are overlooking an important point here - collaboration.

It doesn't make sense to think of "we" vs. "them" when it comes to other
distributions or upstream projects. It's quite the opposite - everybody
can save time by working together with other distributions, upstream
projects etc. We have more important things to do than re-inventing the
wheel just because we need a green one.

As an example: You might know that I maintain AppArmor in openSUSE and
also contribute upstream (OMG, the upstream mailinglist is
@lists.ubuntu.com, not at a "neutral" domain!)

Some not-so-known details:
- I implemented support for new AppArmor rule types (dbus, signal etc.)
  in aa-logprof, but those are not yet supported in the upstream kernel
  (and also not in openSUSE) - so currently only Ubuntu users benefit
  from that
- I always send patches upstream so that everybody can benefit (no,
  saying "use openSUSE, it's fixed there" is not a good idea ;-)
- In 2015, I visited DebConf (I'd guess I was the only one there who had
  never used Debian before) and even gave a talk.
- I closely follow AppArmor-related bugreports in Debian and Ubuntu, and
  help them to get things fixed - even if it's distro-specific

So, tell me - am I working for the enemy? ;-)


BTW: This isn't a one way road. Quite some AppArmor contributions done
by Ubuntu (some other upstream developers work for Canonical) and Debian
contributors end up in openSUSE :-)

Needless to say that AppArmor is just an example. What I said is
basically valid for every package, project, whatever. Either you
collaborate (and everybody wins), or you "cook your own soup" and never
find out that someone else has a receipe for a much more tasty soup ;-)


To come back to the origin of this discussion: I don't care too much
_where_ the Icecream developers host their documentation as long as
- it is complete and up to date (having it at the developers' favorite
  place makes this more likely)
- it can be easily found (also not a problem, it's linked from the wiki,
  and your favorite search engine will also find it)

I see the main purpose of the openSUSE wiki to provide openSUSE-specific
information.

Information about upstream projects (even if a project is done by
openSUSE) is "nice to have", but it's also ok if it lives upstream.
It's better have one good upstream documentation than pages at 5 distro
wikis that are all incomplete and out of date ;-)

> Does that seem reasonable to you?

Please answer that yourself after reading the above ;-)


Regards,

Christian Boltz

PS: It seems my sigmonster [1] wanted to show an example of a bad place
    for storing documentation ;-)  (To make sure you get it right: The
    problem is not Henne, the problem is that someone's brain is a bit
    hard to read by others ;-)

[1] That's my script which randomly selects the signatures under my
    mails - and sometimes I start to think it isn't as random as I'd
    expect ;-)

--
<suseROCKs> henne: [...] Can you link me to any documentation [...]?
<henne> suseROCKs: brain://henne/hardware/touchsmart
<suseROCKs> Firefox:   Oops!  There appears to be no brain:// associated
            with henne
[from #opensuse-project]

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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Adam Spiers
In reply to this post by Sarah Julia Kriesch
Sarah Julia Kriesch <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 01. Januar 2017 um 17:55 Uhr
>> Von: "PatrickD Garvey" <[hidden email]>
>> An: "Sarah Julia Kriesch" <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "_openSUSE Wiki Mailing List - [hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>>
>> Ms. Kriesch,
>>
>> Please let me try again to share the essence of my world view:
>>
>> Why do you use the character string "Sarah Julia Kriesch" in the From:
>> field of your email? Are you not free to use only the character string
>> "ada.lovelace@" and a domain name to make the email system properly
>> deliver your writing?
>>
>Why do you say "Ms. Kriesch"? We are a community and speak with our first names.
>I am a volunteer like you and I want to speak with you as an equal.
>
>Sarah Julia Kriesch is my real name and AdaLovelace my nick name in
>the community. Most Community Members are using their real names on
>mailing lists, just as I. I have a special email alias for openSUSE
>that it won't be mixed with private mails.
>
>I use another name as a nick name, because my education company
>wasn't allowed to know my contributions at openSUSE 5 years ago. They
>didn't want to see me in any open source communities. My online
>(community) friends said, I should use this nick name, because I
>would have the same CV like Ada Lovelace. She wasn't allowed to work
>in Computer Science and did it for her own. I did that (self-studying
>and with support in communities), too.

That's a really cool story behind the nickname ;-)

She was an amazing lady and (just in case anyone didn't know
already) arguably the first ever computer programmer:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Sarah Julia Kriesch
In reply to this post by Ancor Gonzalez Sosa


> Gesendet: Montag, 02. Januar 2017 um 14:35 Uhr
> Von: "Ancor Gonzalez Sosa" <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
>
> On 12/31/2016 01:51 PM, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:
> >
> >> Gesendet: Freitag, 30. Dezember 2016 um 23:00 Uhr
> >> Von: "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]>
> >> An: [hidden email]
> >> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-wiki] Why is this acceptable?
> >>
> >> On 2016-12-30 19:34, PatrickD Garvey wrote:
> >>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 3:12 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch <> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Sarah,
> >>> To put my response to your reply succinctly, you're not seeing the
> >>> world through my eyes.
> >>>
> >>> As I understand it, your perception of the variety of tools used to
> >>> accomplish the tasks required to support the openSUSE project and the
> >>> SUSE product is an opportunity to learn many things. My perception is
> >>> each learning opportunity is a use of time that is needed to produce
> >>> the components of the project/product that is non-productive if one
> >>> has already learned a tool and it's syntax that does the job.
> >>>
> >>> Learning a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, ...
> >>> documentation tool is non-productive when my objective is to provide
> >>> high quality documentation. The fact there are three different
> >>> syntax's that are used by three different documentation producing
> >>> sub-communities also increases the effort required to coordinate the
> >>> work of those sub-communities such that the same documentation is
> >>> produced only once, not three times. The fact there is a link in the
> >>> openSUSE wiki to a GitHub file indicates it takes an unnecessary
> >>> expenditure of time for a new member of the openSUSE project just to
> >>> locate the documentation, let alone keep it up to date.
> >>>
> >>> Producing software products is still a very labor-intensive process.
> >>> Diverting available time to repeated re-learning of a mastered skill
> >>> is a serious cost to the quality, as well as the quantity, of the
> >>> output.
> >>
> >> With my user and tech writer hat on, I agree.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers / Saludos,
> >>
> >> Carlos E. R.
> > Thanks for your feedback!
> >
> > You read the view of a Software Developer by Ancor (YaST Developer at SUSE), too.
> > @Ancor: Thanks that you answered the question with Github of the view of somebody in the Development at SUSE. :-)
> >
> > Open Source Developers are using Github and write their documentation there. Ancor and the YaST Team are doing that for YaST here: http://yast.github.io/documentation
>
> Well, in fact we are using Github for the developer-oriented
> documentation and keeping the wiki for the user-oriented documentation.
>
> In my original mail I already explained why Github is the right place to
> reach potential developers. And it's not realistic to expect translated
> documentation for developers (they will have to communicate in English
> to get the patches accepted anyways). That's why we decided it was fine
> to leave the rather inconvenient (for our purposes) wiki behind. But
> just for developer doc.
>
> We don't plan to move the user documentation because we see the
> strengths of the wiki for that (it's a known central place, it's known
> by our community of translators, etc.).
>
I would not move anything. I think about using plugins or anything else for copying content automatically after hearing all meanings. But I wouldn't do anything without a permit!
I was surprised about the "too many tools" at first and after that Patrick wants to use Gitlab, because Github is public.
I can understand the first meaning of a beginner at openSUSE. The second point isn't consequentally to the first point.

> > The normal user (user of openSUSE) wants to use a wiki of their Linux distribution. That can give the best overview about the operating system. We (wiki Team) are responsible for updating it. We don't have many Developers on the mailing list.
> > That was the reason for linking the Github documentation on the wiki page.
> > It is difficult to get a Developer for writing his documentation on both portals (Github and wiki). They have got the same meaning like you as a Technical Writer. They want to use one platform and commit their code and documentation on one way.
>
> If you want them to use any platform different than Markdown files at
> Github, you have to make sure the extra effort pays off for them.
>
Christian and I setup a new wiki at the moment. I can bring this topic into our Heroes Meeting this Sunday, if we get an answer by the Documentation Team this week and I can summarize/ evaluate something for that.

> > I have got the view of a System Administrator: I want to have happy cumstomers and developers!
> > What can I do for having both? I view the work of developers on Github/ mailing list/ release notes until now and updated the wiki. I live freedom, that everybody can contribute where he likes.
> >
> > One Slogan I learned in my first job: "Happy cows give better milk!" Is the cow more happy while running free or being locked-in?
> > You can transfer it to an open source project:
> > -> Happy Developers (with freedom) develop better software.
> > -> Happy System Administrators (with freedom) make better system administration.
> > -> Happy Technical Writers (with freedom) write better documentations.
> >
> > Now we have got the questions, why we have got a third documentation tool. This tool can create a completely documentation in pdf. Some customers want to have a printed or pdf version of a documentation. Every other distrubtion has got it beside of their wiki, too. The Documentation Team at SUSE is doing most parts of this job at the moment. We should ask Christoph of this team after his view and meaning about documentations with different tools.
> > @Christoph: How is your job with different tools (wiki/ doc/ Github)? Do you have ideas for improvements?
> >
> > I want to have meanings of all different views in our wiki team before finding a solution. I want to have happy Contributors in our wiki Team. ;-)
>
> And if we are talking about variety of tools, don't forget we have two
> for translators: Weblate for translating software and the wiki for
> translating... well, for translating the wiki.

Psst! :-)
We have got a separate mailing list for translators (with Weblate). Patrick wants to work in the Technical Documentation (English) and 3 tools are too much. We have to analyze  the problem of Patrick and Carlos. We can add features into our new wiki instance (if needed).  But I want to hear all before doing that. ;-)
>
> Theoretically, Weblate is powerful enough to be used to translate
> different sources, including a Wiki, stuff coming from Github, etc. But
> that of course means that somebody needs to set the system.

Patrick doesn't want to translate...

>
> Tools... the never-ending strength/weakness of the openSUSE project...
>
> > Enjoy the last hours of this year and have a happy new year!
> > Best regards,
> > Sarah
>
> Happy new year.
>
> --
> Ancor González Sosa

I want to work based on the Software Development Life Cycle in all projects (unimportant whether technical or not technical).
1. Planning: Asking all after their problems and summarizing that. Looking after such processes in other teams or communities, whether something like that exists.
2. Analysis: Defining the problem and finding solutions/ plugins...
3. Design: Evaluating of solutions on test systems. We have got a test system at the moment. ;-)
4. Implementation/ Installation: Integration of the solution into our new wiki setup.
5. Testing: Testing it and asking, whether all are happy. :-)
6. Maintenance: Improving, if something has to be improved.

Best regards,
Sarah
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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Sarah Julia Kriesch
On 2016-12-31 17:53, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:

>> Me, I find writing on the wiki a bit cumbersome, but it is an easy
>> access place for both writers and readers.
>>
> Can you describe what "a bit cumbersome" is?
> You can fix only issues, if you know the problem.

No, there is no way to repair that, it is by design of a "wiki" system.
For instance, it is not WYSIWYG.

One has to know "keywords" that should result in a certain format, then
ask the system to produce the output and see the result. If it is not as
wanted, change and repeat procedure.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Why is this acceptable?

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Christian Boltz-5
On 2017-01-02 14:43, Christian Boltz wrote:

> Helllo,
>
> Am Sonntag, 1. Januar 2017, 14:16:44 CET schrieb PatrickD Garvey:
>> On Sun, Jan 1, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:
>
>>> Why do you say "Ms. Kriesch"? We are a community and speak with our
>>> first names. I am a volunteer like you and I want to speak with you
>>> as an equal.
>
> I even heard people joking that saying "Mr./Ms. $lastname" to someone in
> an open source project is a way to show you are mad at them ;-)
Oh, crumbs.

I have used "Mr" often as a sign of respect. You mean it is not?
Oh, my. :-(


--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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