What syslog daemon

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What syslog daemon

Carlos E. R.-2
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Hi,

In this machine (13.1) I use rsyslog. Some years ago I used syslog-ng.

I find rsyslog problematic when finding errors in the config file, it
fails to point at the exact error.

what do you think is currently better, rsyslog or syslog-ng?



(No, I do not like systemd journal. I disable it)

- --
Cheers

  Carlos E. R.
  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: What syslog daemon

Darin Perusich-3
rsyslog, if for no other reason then RELP support (but there are many others;-))
--
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Darin


On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Carlos E. R.
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> In this machine (13.1) I use rsyslog. Some years ago I used syslog-ng.
>
> I find rsyslog problematic when finding errors in the config file, it fails
> to point at the exact error.
>
> what do you think is currently better, rsyslog or syslog-ng?
>
>
>
> (No, I do not like systemd journal. I disable it)
>
> - -- Cheers
>
>         Carlos E. R.
>         (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAlfIaJ4ACgkQtTMYHG2NR9U1BACfeQWeHoMJxq/uzXwb5rlBlnIo
> /ngAoIepb1IiWi9sTjOKXkGMNFOuRjy6
> =9tYc
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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Re: What syslog daemon

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
Carlos E. R. wrote:

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>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> In this machine (13.1) I use rsyslog. Some years ago I used syslog-ng.
>
> I find rsyslog problematic when finding errors in the config file, it
> fails to point at the exact error.
>
> what do you think is currently better, rsyslog or syslog-ng?

syslog-ng, without a doubt.




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Re: What syslog daemon

Richard Brown
On 2 September 2016 at 07:18, Per Jessen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> In this machine (13.1) I use rsyslog. Some years ago I used syslog-ng.
>>
>> I find rsyslog problematic when finding errors in the config file, it
>> fails to point at the exact error.
>>
>> what do you think is currently better, rsyslog or syslog-ng?
>
> syslog-ng, without a doubt.

agreed, syslog-ng all the way. It's better documented, it's used
elsewhere besides just linux, it can better ID message types and
categorise them into classes, you can do realtime correlation, it's
log files are easier to read, and last but no means least our very own
contributor Peter Czanik is the upstream syslog-ng Community Manager
so the support in openSUSE is top notch ;)
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Re: What syslog daemon

Daniel Bauer


Am 02.09.2016 um 09:56 schrieb Richard Brown:

> On 2 September 2016 at 07:18, Per Jessen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> In this machine (13.1) I use rsyslog. Some years ago I used syslog-ng.
>>>
>>> I find rsyslog problematic when finding errors in the config file, it
>>> fails to point at the exact error.
>>>
>>> what do you think is currently better, rsyslog or syslog-ng?
>>
>> syslog-ng, without a doubt.
>
> agreed, syslog-ng all the way. It's better documented, it's used
> elsewhere besides just linux, it can better ID message types and
> categorise them into classes, you can do realtime correlation, it's
> log files are easier to read, and last but no means least our very own
> contributor Peter Czanik is the upstream syslog-ng Community Manager
> so the support in openSUSE is top notch ;)
>

would syslog-ng give me a textfile like /var/log/messages that I can
just look at from time to time?
can I just install it with Yast, or do I have to do special settings
(for example for compressing old logs etc.)?
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Re: What syslog daemon

Per Jessen
Daniel Bauer wrote:

>
>
> Am 02.09.2016 um 09:56 schrieb Richard Brown:
>> On 2 September 2016 at 07:18, Per Jessen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> In this machine (13.1) I use rsyslog. Some years ago I used
>>>> syslog-ng.
>>>>
>>>> I find rsyslog problematic when finding errors in the config file,
>>>> it fails to point at the exact error.
>>>>
>>>> what do you think is currently better, rsyslog or syslog-ng?
>>>
>>> syslog-ng, without a doubt.
>>
>> agreed, syslog-ng all the way. It's better documented, it's used
>> elsewhere besides just linux, it can better ID message types and
>> categorise them into classes, you can do realtime correlation, it's
>> log files are easier to read, and last but no means least our very
>> own contributor Peter Czanik is the upstream syslog-ng Community
>> Manager so the support in openSUSE is top notch ;)
>>
>
> would syslog-ng give me a textfile like /var/log/messages that I can
> just look at from time to time?

That is in the default config, so yes.

> can I just install it with Yast, or do I have to do special settings
> (for example for compressing old logs etc.)?

You just install it with YaST or zypper.  If you want old logfiles
compressed and archived, you need logrotate.


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Re: What syslog daemon

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Richard Brown
On 2016-09-02 09:56, Richard Brown wrote:

> On 2 September 2016 at 07:18, Per Jessen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> In this machine (13.1) I use rsyslog. Some years ago I used syslog-ng.
>>>
>>> I find rsyslog problematic when finding errors in the config file, it
>>> fails to point at the exact error.
>>>
>>> what do you think is currently better, rsyslog or syslog-ng?
>>
>> syslog-ng, without a doubt.
>
> agreed, syslog-ng all the way. It's better documented, it's used
> elsewhere besides just linux, it can better ID message types and
> categorise them into classes, you can do realtime correlation, it's
> log files are easier to read, and last but no means least our very own
> contributor Peter Czanik is the upstream syslog-ng Community Manager
> so the support in openSUSE is top notch ;)
Then I'll try it again in 42.2, and probably switch back to it.

For some reason, rsyslog was the default on openSUSE some years back,
that's the reason I have it. And it's given me problems.

--
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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)


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Re: What syslog daemon

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2016-09-02 15:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Then I'll try it again in 42.2, and probably switch back to it.

I just did. I was very surprised that when I started it, it logged all
messages since boot. It must have queried the systemd journal, instead
of starting logging messages since the instant it starts to run.

--
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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)


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Re: What syslog daemon

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Daniel Bauer
On 09/02/2016 04:21 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:

>
> would syslog-ng give me a textfile like /var/log/messages that I can just look
> at from time to time?

The short answer is yes.
The longer answer is that (a) it depends what you mean by "like", and (b) how
willing you are to spend time learning, RTFM, reading how-to articles, to get
syslog-ng to sing and dance the way you want.

Maybe, just maybe, your expectations are low.
In which case you want care that it can do things that you've never considered
before and what may be of great benefit to you, automation your work and so
forth in ways you never dreamt of.

Who knows?

In the dim mists of times long past one of the most useful programs to me as a
pupal sysadmin was a tool called 'swatch'.  This was long before the Swiss watch
company of that name with the colourful bands.  It was a Perl script that
watched the output of the old, vanilla, under-equipped syslog.  It could be
configured to watch for any event or series of events occurring in a time period
or sequence and notify you by email, writing to your console or even LO! by
sending a message to your pager.  This was in the days before cell phones and
SMS.  When they came along there was an upgrade for SMS :-)
It even had what Marcus Ranum termed 'artificial ignorance' - it could ignore
the stuff you deemed 'noise'.

And lets face it, if you knew Perl you knew that its scanners and RE matching
was so much better than the shell and grep! And faster and ... well, just Better!

But now its irrelevant.

There's syslog and there's syslog-ng.

If you aren't interested in what syslog-ng can do that makes things like swatch
irrelevant because syslog-ng can be configured to do it all, then stick with the
vanilla 'syslog'.

Why am I saying this?

Regular readers will recall that I'm into amateur (that is, I don't get paid for
it, no matter the quality) photography.  I have been since my mid teens.  I've
owned many cameras; I've followed their technological evolution.  I've been
using SLRs for longer than I've been using *NIX.   Sometimes I'm out and about
and I meet professionals and discuss technique; yes they have good, often
leading edge equipment, but that's incidental - being professionals they (a)
need it and (b) can pay for it as a business expense.  But we talk technique not
technology.  Then I meet the people with more money than sense.  They buy
expensive, complicated cameras and clearly don't know how to configure them -
heck that might involve reading the manual and that's not !FUN!  If you do talk
to them they speak of the cost of their equipment and how great it is and how
its so much better than my ("antiquated") stuff, how many meagpixels they have,
how many lenses they have.  I try not to deal with these people.  All they have
is very very expensive, very overpowered point-and-shoot.

If all you need is the basic "point and sheet' level of technology then don't
get something more complicated, more complex, more configurable than you need
unless you are willing to invest in learning about it and making use of its
capability.  It will be a frustration for you.


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Re: What syslog daemon

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
On 09/02/2016 09:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> For some reason, rsyslog was the default on openSUSE some years back,
> that's the reason I have it. And it's given me problems.

If rsyslog gave you problems, what makes you think the more complex, more
advanced syslog-ng wont?

--
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     >   Q: Are you sure?
     >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
     >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?

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Re: What syslog daemon

Michael Fischer-3
On Fri, Sep 02, Anton Aylward wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 09:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > For some reason, rsyslog was the default on openSUSE some years back,
> > that's the reason I have it. And it's given me problems.
>
> If rsyslog gave you problems, what makes you think the more complex, more
> advanced syslog-ng wont?

Speaking personally, the config syntax for -ng is *far* nicer to work with,
irrespective of whether I'm shooting for something "complex" or simple.

Oh, Carlos, as I just went through this exercise this morning... be prepared
for huge amounts of systemd spam in /var/log/messages.

See http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/fedora-35/systemd-log-flood-session-opened-for-user-root-4175534737/
 as just one example I found out there. Lots of bad "just filter it" answers
out there, on that and other threads, but page two of the above seems to
have figured out the appropriate workaround: `sudo loginctl enable-linger root`.

Quoting the hypothesis from the above, and trying it now:

"Systemd is running a per-user systemd for root whenever a session is started,
e.g. to run a cron job. Then when root’s last session is closed, the per-user
systemd is killed. The spew of log messages has to do with the the spawning and
killing of that per-user systemd."




Michael
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Re: What syslog daemon

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
On 2016-09-02 16:36, Anton Aylward wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 09:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> For some reason, rsyslog was the default on openSUSE some years back,
>> that's the reason I have it. And it's given me problems.
>
> If rsyslog gave you problems, what makes you think the more complex, more
> advanced syslog-ng wont?

That's what I'm going to try :-)

The main problem is that rsyslog, when it finds a syntax error, does not
point to the token in error, not says the exact type of error. It just
says the line, and with line continuation (\) this can be anywhere in
thirty lines in my setup. I have to remove all of them and re-add one by
one till I find the bad one.

Remember I said I used syslog-ng years ago. I still have backups of my
files. At least this one. :-)

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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)


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Re: What syslog daemon

Michael Fischer-3
In reply to this post by Michael Fischer-3
On Fri, Sep 02, Michael Fischer wrote:

> Oh, Carlos, as I just went through this exercise this morning... be prepared
> for huge amounts of systemd spam in /var/log/messages.
>
> See http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/fedora-35/systemd-log-flood-session-opened-for-user-root-4175534737/
>  as just one example I found out there. Lots of bad "just filter it" answers
> out there, on that and other threads, but page two of the above seems to
> have figured out the appropriate workaround: `sudo loginctl enable-linger root`.
>
> Quoting the hypothesis from the above, and trying it now:
>
> "Systemd is running a per-user systemd for root whenever a session is started,
> e.g. to run a cron job. Then when root’s last session is closed, the per-user
> systemd is killed. The spew of log messages has to do with the the spawning and
> killing of that per-user systemd."

FWIW, this trick works... much less spammy /var/log/messages. HTH.

Michael
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Re: What syslog daemon

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
Anton Aylward wrote:

> On 09/02/2016 09:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> For some reason, rsyslog was the default on openSUSE some years back,
>> that's the reason I have it. And it's given me problems.
>
> If rsyslog gave you problems, what makes you think the more complex,
> more advanced syslog-ng wont?

What makes you think syslog-ng is more complex, Anton?  I distinctly
remember a few years back when openSUSE switched to rsyslog.  I tried
to get rsyslog to write timestamps in the ISO8601 format.  In syslog-ng
it was just add "ts_format(iso)" to the main options, I don't remember
if I ever worked it out in rsyslog :-)


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Re: What syslog daemon

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Michael Fischer-3
Michael Fischer wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 02, Anton Aylward wrote:
>> On 09/02/2016 09:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> > For some reason, rsyslog was the default on openSUSE some years
>> > back, that's the reason I have it. And it's given me problems.
>>
>> If rsyslog gave you problems, what makes you think the more complex,
>> more advanced syslog-ng wont?
>
> Speaking personally, the config syntax for -ng is *far* nicer to work
> with,

I second that.  That is probably my top reason for using syslog-ng.



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Re: What syslog daemon

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Michael Fischer-3
On 09/02/2016 10:53 AM, Michael Fischer wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 02, Anton Aylward wrote:
>> On 09/02/2016 09:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> For some reason, rsyslog was the default on openSUSE some years back,
>>> that's the reason I have it. And it's given me problems.
>>
>> If rsyslog gave you problems, what makes you think the more complex, more
>> advanced syslog-ng wont?
>
> Speaking personally, the config syntax for -ng is *far* nicer to work with,
> irrespective of whether I'm shooting for something "complex" or simple.

Speaking as someone who is very CLI oriented and tends to edit config files by
hand rather than use YAST or some other configuration management tool specific
to such things, ... well, that's a consideration.

But if you're a more normal, regular user who doesn't have this obsession that
Thee and Mee seem to have, the kind of people that play with awkward
configuration settings just because, who does use YAST or whatever tool, then in
all probability there are more KISS approaches.

Not everyone wants to operate 'close to the edge'.

What? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51oPKLSuyQY




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Re: What syslog daemon

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
Anton Aylward wrote:

> On 09/02/2016 04:21 AM, Daniel Bauer wrote:
>
>>
>> would syslog-ng give me a textfile like /var/log/messages that I can
>> just look at from time to time?
>
> The short answer is yes.
> The longer answer is that (a) it depends what you mean by "like", and
> (b) how willing you are to spend time learning, RTFM, reading how-to
> articles, to get syslog-ng to sing and dance the way you want.

Anton, that is just not true.  What Daniel wants, he'll get with the
default config.  There is no need to suggest it is any more difficult.

> In the dim mists of times long past one of the most useful programs to
> me as a pupal sysadmin was a tool called 'swatch'.  This was long
> before the Swiss watch company of that name with the colourful bands.
> It was a Perl script that ... [snip]

So that means it was after 1987, by which time Swatch had been operating
for five years I think :-)

> watched the output of the old, vanilla, under-equipped syslog.  It
> could be configured to watch for any event or series of events
> occurring in a time period or sequence and notify you by email,
> writing to your console or even LO! by sending a message to your
> pager.  This was in the days before cell phones and SMS.

Okay, now we've got it narrowed down to somewhere between 1987 and 1995.

> There's syslog and there's syslog-ng.
>
> If you aren't interested in what syslog-ng can do that makes things
> like swatch irrelevant because syslog-ng can be configured to do it
> all, then stick with the vanilla 'syslog'.

openSUSE defaults to installing no syslog, but to suggest "syslogd"
today instead of rsyslog or syslog-ng is really poor advice, IMHO.

> Why am I saying this?

Yes, I do wonder.

> If all you need is the basic "point and sheet' level of technology
> then don't get something more complicated, more complex, more
> configurable than you need unless you are willing to invest in
> learning about it and making use of its capability.  It will be a
> frustration for you.

Assuming we are talking about syslog-ng, I disagree. Completely.
For anyone with a desire to have /var/log/messages and /var/log/mail
written to disk as we used to have, simply install rsyslog or
syslog-ng, and that's it.  They'll both do all kinds of singing and
dancing, but unless you want them to, you don't need to do any further
studies.


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Re: What syslog daemon

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
Anton Aylward wrote:

> On 09/02/2016 10:53 AM, Michael Fischer wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 02, Anton Aylward wrote:
>>> On 09/02/2016 09:05 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> For some reason, rsyslog was the default on openSUSE some years
>>>> back, that's the reason I have it. And it's given me problems.
>>>
>>> If rsyslog gave you problems, what makes you think the more complex,
>>> more advanced syslog-ng wont?
>>
>> Speaking personally, the config syntax for -ng is *far* nicer to work
>> with, irrespective of whether I'm shooting for something "complex" or
>> simple.
>
> Speaking as someone who is very CLI oriented and tends to edit config
> files by hand rather than use YAST or some other configuration
> management tool specific to such things, ... well, that's a
> consideration.
>
> But if you're a more normal, regular user who doesn't have this
> obsession that Thee and Mee seem to have,

A "more normal, regular user" is hopefully quite happy with the current
openSUSE default (of having no syslog daemon).



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Re: What syslog daemon

ianseeks-3
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
On Friday, 2 September 2016 15:29:51 BST Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2016-09-02 15:05, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> > Then I'll try it again in 42.2, and probably switch back to it.
>
> I just did. I was very surprised that when I started it, it logged all
> messages since boot. It must have queried the systemd journal, instead
> of starting logging messages since the instant it starts to run.
I think both syslog and rsyslog have been updated to query the journal
database.
I think the config option in systemd to forward logs to syslog is not longer
set to do it automatically, i think they are going to drop the option

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Re: What syslog daemon

John Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
On 09/02/2016 09:35 AM, Per Jessen wrote:
> A "more normal, regular user" is hopefully quite happy with the current
> openSUSE default (of having no syslog daemon).
>

Was going to chime in with this, but didn't want to get in the middle of
a flame fest.  Daniel can have it any way he wants it.

But for me, the time it would take to get it running the old way
exceed the time (and the disk space) it would take me to learn how to
use journalctl.





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