Thread Hijacking Protocol

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Thread Hijacking Protocol

Mike Dewhirst-3
Here is an axample of top-posting. So sue me :)

The fact is that we should be pleased this list attracts people who
don't know the correct etiquette. IT MEANS (please forgive my shouting)
NON-SAVVY PEOPLE ARE USING (trying to use) SuSE! This has been said many
times before.

Sure we need a protocol. Someone ought to write one and post it wherever
people sign up for this list. Then it would be easy to refer a hijacker
or otherwise uneducated beginner to that well written and politely
encouraging post.

I think it is important to help newbies rather than repel them. If you
(oldies) want to depend on SuSE indefinitely it must grow in popularity.

Things never stay the same. SuSE's popularity can either grow or shrink.
If it shrinks I have to switch my allegiance to another distro which I
can rely on to retain critical mass and continue indefinitely.

Mail rage is repulsive.

Mike



Dana J. Laude wrote:
 > On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 20:31 -0700, jdow wrote:
 >> Seems to me you men are hijacking a thread yourself. You are very
 >> bad men. Retire your selves to a corner and sit there for an hour
 >> contemplating your sin.
 >>
 >> {^_-}   Joanne, being 1) obnoxious, 2) silly, or 3) observant.
 >
 > Seems to me that top quoting isn't good either. WTF, this list was not
 > so unclued before.  Seriously though, a few of the latest threads have
 > been pretty lame.  (unsubscribe from SLE as an example)
 >
 > Let's just get back to support issues / questions and get along.
 > (putting on flame suit) ;)
 >
 > Dana
 >
 >


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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Basil Chupin
Mike Dewhirst wrote:
> Here is an axample of top-posting. So sue me :)
>
> The fact is that we should be pleased this list attracts people who
> don't know the correct etiquette. IT MEANS (please forgive my shouting)
> NON-SAVVY PEOPLE ARE USING (trying to use) SuSE! This has been said many
> times before.

Sorry, but I disagree with the logic of your argument :-) .

There are 2 aspects here: (1) attracting and retaining new SuSE users to
this forum, and (2) whether (new) people who come here are
posting-etiquette aware.

People who come here should already be posting-etiquette aware and if
they are not then it does not mean that they are simply new SuSE users.
I was once a "newbie" to this forum but I didn't come here ignorant of
how to or how not to post/reply to messages in mail lists or newsgroups.

There are people, of course, who either don't know what the
posting-etiquette is or who know but deliberately ignore it because they
are simply one of the anti-social breed of people. But this does not
mean, as you are suggesting, that they are "non-savvy people .. using..
SuSE".

As far as I know, this forum is no different to any other well run,
intelligent, forum where the normal posting-etiquette is known and
observed by the participants.

Nevertheless, I take your point about having a set of guidelines which
one could point a "newbie" at if, and when, they should deviate too far
from posting-etiquette.

Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world and there will always be
someone who will not adhere to requested standard of behaviour - take
your opening sentence for example - so all one can hope for when
arriving at a set of guidelines is that most people will follow them but
if they don't then there is no way that one could truly enforce them.

The one real thing going for this forum (and a few others that I
subscribe to associated with SuSE generally) is that there don't appear
to be any spotty-faced teenagers participating who cannot spell nor put
two words together in a sentence and whose problems and hardware etc are
always of the fornicating kind or of some other bodily function.


>
> Sure we need a protocol. Someone ought to write one and post it wherever
> people sign up for this list. Then it would be easy to refer a hijacker
> or otherwise uneducated beginner to that well written and politely
> encouraging post.
>
> I think it is important to help newbies rather than repel them. If you
> (oldies) want to depend on SuSE indefinitely it must grow in popularity.
>
> Things never stay the same. SuSE's popularity can either grow or shrink.
> If it shrinks I have to switch my allegiance to another distro which I
> can rely on to retain critical mass and continue indefinitely.
>
> Mail rage is repulsive.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Dana J. Laude wrote:
>  > On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 20:31 -0700, jdow wrote:
>  >> Seems to me you men are hijacking a thread yourself. You are very
>  >> bad men. Retire your selves to a corner and sit there for an hour
>  >> contemplating your sin.
>  >>
>  >> {^_-}   Joanne, being 1) obnoxious, 2) silly, or 3) observant.
>  >
>  > Seems to me that top quoting isn't good either. WTF, this list was not
>  > so unclued before.  Seriously though, a few of the latest threads have
>  > been pretty lame.  (unsubscribe from SLE as an example)
>  >
>  > Let's just get back to support issues / questions and get along.
>  > (putting on flame suit) ;)
>  >
>  > Dana
>  >
>  >
>
>

Cheers.

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

gallafent
In reply to this post by Mike Dewhirst-3
On Thursday 10 August 2006 06:20, Mike Dewhirst wrote:

> Sure we need a protocol. Someone ought to write one and
> post it wherever people sign up for this list. Then it
> would be easy to refer a hijacker or otherwise uneducated
> beginner to that well written and politely encouraging
> post.

The basic FAQ is available by emailing
[hidden email], or, in summary, at
http://susefaq.sourceforge.net/faq/maillist.html.

An unofficial etiquette FAQ, more relevant to this point,
used to be available at
http://www.stud.fernuni-hagen.de/q5043905/Suse-Linux-Etiquette-e.html,
but appears to have been taken off line (susefaq owner take
note) :( It may be available from www.archive.org, but that
is down for me at the moment too!

In general,
http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/mailing-list-faq/etiquette.html
is a good start.

I found these by googling with the term "suse-linux-e faq"
or "suse-linux-e etiquette faq" (without the "s).

Perhaps the list welcome email should mention these links
(it may already - I don't remember).


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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Mike Dewhirst-3
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin
Basil Chupin wrote:

> Mike Dewhirst wrote:
>> Here is an axample of top-posting. So sue me :)
>>
>> The fact is that we should be pleased this list attracts people who
>> don't know the correct etiquette. IT MEANS (please forgive my
>> shouting) NON-SAVVY PEOPLE ARE USING (trying to use) SuSE! This has
>> been said many times before.
>
> Sorry, but I disagree with the logic of your argument :-) .
>
> There are 2 aspects here: (1) attracting and retaining new SuSE users to
> this forum, and (2) whether (new) people who come here are
> posting-etiquette aware.

Basil

(1) who cares whether the list attracts and retains new SuSE users? All
I care about is that there ARE new SuSE users - on an ongoing basis.
However, if they stick around they need to pick up on the netiquette. I
agree with you there but see below.

(2) the new people we want are from that market sector which dominates.
Most of those people never use lists like this. Windows users simply ask
each other for help. There are so many of them the majority don't know
we exist let alone that a list like this can make it possible for Linux
(alright, SuSE Linux) to satisfy our computing requirements.

If people from the 90% sector join us we can be almost certain it is the
first time they have joined a list.

I'm only exaggerating for effect. I know there are lots of Windows users
who are list savvy. They don't trigger widespread mail rage.

I think the point I'm trying to get across is that Linux (SuSE) needs to
infiltrate that vast bulk of the populace who are real newbies.

Let's give them a well written and even entertaining set of list
guidelines.

My original motivation was to suggest that a referral to the guidelines
by way of a link would be the polite way to welcome a newbie who trod on
toes.

Mike




>
> People who come here should already be posting-etiquette aware and if
> they are not then it does not mean that they are simply new SuSE users.
> I was once a "newbie" to this forum but I didn't come here ignorant of
> how to or how not to post/reply to messages in mail lists or newsgroups.
>
> There are people, of course, who either don't know what the
> posting-etiquette is or who know but deliberately ignore it because they
> are simply one of the anti-social breed of people. But this does not
> mean, as you are suggesting, that they are "non-savvy people .. using..
> SuSE".
>
> As far as I know, this forum is no different to any other well run,
> intelligent, forum where the normal posting-etiquette is known and
> observed by the participants.
>
> Nevertheless, I take your point about having a set of guidelines which
> one could point a "newbie" at if, and when, they should deviate too far
> from posting-etiquette.
>
> Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world and there will always be
> someone who will not adhere to requested standard of behaviour - take
> your opening sentence for example - so all one can hope for when
> arriving at a set of guidelines is that most people will follow them but
> if they don't then there is no way that one could truly enforce them.
>
> The one real thing going for this forum (and a few others that I
> subscribe to associated with SuSE generally) is that there don't appear
> to be any spotty-faced teenagers participating who cannot spell nor put
> two words together in a sentence and whose problems and hardware etc are
> always of the fornicating kind or of some other bodily function.
>
>
>>
>> Sure we need a protocol. Someone ought to write one and post it
>> wherever people sign up for this list. Then it would be easy to refer
>> a hijacker or otherwise uneducated beginner to that well written and
>> politely encouraging post.
>>
>> I think it is important to help newbies rather than repel them. If you
>> (oldies) want to depend on SuSE indefinitely it must grow in popularity.
>>
>> Things never stay the same. SuSE's popularity can either grow or
>> shrink. If it shrinks I have to switch my allegiance to another distro
>> which I can rely on to retain critical mass and continue indefinitely.
>>
>> Mail rage is repulsive.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> Dana J. Laude wrote:
>>  > On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 20:31 -0700, jdow wrote:
>>  >> Seems to me you men are hijacking a thread yourself. You are very
>>  >> bad men. Retire your selves to a corner and sit there for an hour
>>  >> contemplating your sin.
>>  >>
>>  >> {^_-}   Joanne, being 1) obnoxious, 2) silly, or 3) observant.
>>  >
>>  > Seems to me that top quoting isn't good either. WTF, this list was not
>>  > so unclued before.  Seriously though, a few of the latest threads have
>>  > been pretty lame.  (unsubscribe from SLE as an example)
>>  >
>>  > Let's just get back to support issues / questions and get along.
>>  > (putting on flame suit) ;)
>>  >
>>  > Dana
>>  >
>>  >
>>
>>
>
> Cheers.
>



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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Peter Sutter
In reply to this post by Mike Dewhirst-3
On Thursday 10 August 2006 13:20, Mike Dewhirst wrote:

> Here is an axample of top-posting. So sue me :)
>
> The fact is that we should be pleased this list attracts people who
> don't know the correct etiquette. IT MEANS (please forgive my shouting)
> NON-SAVVY PEOPLE ARE USING (trying to use) SuSE! This has been said many
> times before.
>
> Sure we need a protocol. Someone ought to write one and post it wherever
> people sign up for this list. Then it would be easy to refer a hijacker
> or otherwise uneducated beginner to that well written and politely
> encouraging post.
>
> I think it is important to help newbies rather than repel them. If you
> (oldies) want to depend on SuSE indefinitely it must grow in popularity.
>
> Things never stay the same. SuSE's popularity can either grow or shrink.
> If it shrinks I have to switch my allegiance to another distro which I
> can rely on to retain critical mass and continue indefinitely.
>
> Mail rage is repulsive.
>
> Mike
>
Mike,

I agree with you, but we should be even more tolerant to newcomers and
ignorants.

Since years I try to convince Microsoft users to switch over to Linux, SuSE
Linux in particular, and when I could convince someone to make the switch, I
feel that I have done the right thing.

These newcomers need all the support we can give. Most of them have never
subscribed to a mailing list before, so they would not know about
'netiquette'; but all of them are keen to adapt and learn. If they make
mistakes like top posting or try to unsubscribe in an unsuitable way, we can
tell them in a polite way; and they will learn. Yes, there are some dickheads
out there that will never learn, whether with or without abuse.

Unfortunately the Windows way is by trial and error, and this has gone into
their blood, they believe that computers work that way and can't imagine that
there are operating systems that behave predictably. With newcomers, this
mentality  is initially carried over into the Linux environment.

I believe that the purpose of the suse-linux-e mailing list is to

1. Give sensible information about SuSE Linux in particular and maybe Linux in
general

2. To assist newcomers making the transition from either windows or another
distro

We have to ask ourselves why people want to unsubscribe from this list? Why
would anyone unsubscribe? I can't imagine they are doing it because they know
too much about SuSE Linux, but here are some reasons I can think off why they
want to:

Because they moved back to windows because they could not handle Linux
Because they could not get the answers here
Because they moved to another distro
Because they got peed off by the sometimes abusive comments and answers

If the unsubscribe request is for any of the above reasons, WE as
professionals have NOT done our job; we have failed to get our message
across. This hurts not only SuSE Linux but the wider Linux community.

Lets be polite even to those that want to leave this list and make this list
popular. I am sure all of us have the mental strength to do it.

Peter

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Matthew Stringer
Agreed!

:P



On Thursday 10 August 2006 14:24, Peter Sutter wrote:

> On Thursday 10 August 2006 13:20, Mike Dewhirst wrote:
> > Here is an axample of top-posting. So sue me :)
> >
> > The fact is that we should be pleased this list attracts people who
> > don't know the correct etiquette. IT MEANS (please forgive my shouting)
> > NON-SAVVY PEOPLE ARE USING (trying to use) SuSE! This has been said many
> > times before.
> >
> > Sure we need a protocol. Someone ought to write one and post it wherever
> > people sign up for this list. Then it would be easy to refer a hijacker
> > or otherwise uneducated beginner to that well written and politely
> > encouraging post.
> >
> > I think it is important to help newbies rather than repel them. If you
> > (oldies) want to depend on SuSE indefinitely it must grow in popularity.
> >
> > Things never stay the same. SuSE's popularity can either grow or shrink.
> > If it shrinks I have to switch my allegiance to another distro which I
> > can rely on to retain critical mass and continue indefinitely.
> >
> > Mail rage is repulsive.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Mike,
>
> I agree with you, but we should be even more tolerant to newcomers and
> ignorants.
>
> Since years I try to convince Microsoft users to switch over to Linux, SuSE
> Linux in particular, and when I could convince someone to make the switch,
> I feel that I have done the right thing.
>
> These newcomers need all the support we can give. Most of them have never
> subscribed to a mailing list before, so they would not know about
> 'netiquette'; but all of them are keen to adapt and learn. If they make
> mistakes like top posting or try to unsubscribe in an unsuitable way, we
> can tell them in a polite way; and they will learn. Yes, there are some
> dickheads out there that will never learn, whether with or without abuse.
>
> Unfortunately the Windows way is by trial and error, and this has gone into
> their blood, they believe that computers work that way and can't imagine
> that there are operating systems that behave predictably. With newcomers,
> this mentality  is initially carried over into the Linux environment.
>
> I believe that the purpose of the suse-linux-e mailing list is to
>
> 1. Give sensible information about SuSE Linux in particular and maybe Linux
> in general
>
> 2. To assist newcomers making the transition from either windows or another
> distro
>
> We have to ask ourselves why people want to unsubscribe from this list? Why
> would anyone unsubscribe? I can't imagine they are doing it because they
> know too much about SuSE Linux, but here are some reasons I can think off
> why they want to:
>
> Because they moved back to windows because they could not handle Linux
> Because they could not get the answers here
> Because they moved to another distro
> Because they got peed off by the sometimes abusive comments and answers
>
> If the unsubscribe request is for any of the above reasons, WE as
> professionals have NOT done our job; we have failed to get our message
> across. This hurts not only SuSE Linux but the wider Linux community.
>
> Lets be polite even to those that want to leave this list and make this
> list popular. I am sure all of us have the mental strength to do it.
>
> Peter

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Daniel Bauer
In reply to this post by Peter Sutter
Am Donnerstag, 10. August 2006 15:24 schrieb Peter Sutter:
> [...]
> I agree with you, but we should be even more tolerant to newcomers and
> ignorants.

you're so right!
On the other hand I can understand, if somebody looses his nerves from time to
time and just wants to vent his anger...
>
>[...]
>
> These newcomers need all the support we can give. Most of them have never
> subscribed to a mailing list before, so they would not know about
> 'netiquette'; but all of them are keen to adapt and learn. If they make
> mistakes like top posting or try to unsubscribe in an unsuitable way, we
> can tell them in a polite way; and they will learn.

So very true. Opensuse was my first subscription, this list my second, I knew
*nothing* about mailing lists before. Thanks to polite people here I've
learned a lot - and still am learning :-)

> [...]
>
> We have to ask ourselves why people want to unsubscribe from this list? Why
> would anyone unsubscribe? I can't imagine they are doing it because they
> know too much about SuSE Linux, but here are some reasons I can think off
> why they want to:
>
> Because they moved back to windows because they could not handle Linux
> Because they could not get the answers here
> Because they moved to another distro
> Because they got peed off by the sometimes abusive comments and answers
>
> [...]
It can also be because filtering messages and ordering them in a threaded way
seems to be a problem for many that have never seen/done this before. My
Eudora on my old Win98 PC isn't even able to show a folder in threaded view
and it cannot reply to a list. If you suffer from an email client like that
the many mails from such a list can easily outgrow. To me this was such a
huge problem in the beginning that I almost unsubscribed...

Daniel

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RE: Thread Hijacking Protocol

mlist-3
In reply to this post by Mike Dewhirst-3
Basil Chupin [mailto:[hidden email]] replied to
Mike Dewhirst, saying:

[...]
> People who come here should already be posting-etiquette aware and if
> they are not then it does not mean that they are simply new
> SuSE users.
> I was once a "newbie" to this forum but I didn't come here
> ignorant of
> how to or how not to post/reply to messages in mail lists or
> newsgroups.

On the other hand, I was a participant for years in BBS and
internet mailing lists before I came to [SLE], but it was
only here that I learned about:

a) top-posting (used to be called TOFU when most of the list
gurus were German)

b) that hitting "Reply" (to get a new message with the correct
address in place) and just writing in a new topic/Subject
amounted to hijacking a thread (because of the header material
that was invisibly (to my mail reader) brought along.

I'm sure I was an ignorant turd, but the two topics
simply went unmentioned in several years and many hundreds
of posts to a variety of mailing lists (some technical, some
social/political/whatever).  Once I read an explanation of
(at the time) TOFU, and an explanation of how threads were
being unintentionally hijacked, I made it a point to avoid
both practices thereafter. But the idea is that this list
was in the minority from my perspective... still is, mostly,
but when in Rome...

Also, modern mail readers make the thread-hijack thing
hard to excuse, because it now takes fewer clicks or
keystrokes to get a new message with the list address
already in place, than to "Reply" and then delete the
undesired stuff.

> As far as I know, this forum is no different to any other well run,
> intelligent, forum where the normal posting-etiquette is known and
> observed by the participants.

It is observed by well-meaning participants (like me :-)
when it is pointed out, but it doesn't necessarily come
with a newcomer if their previous forum experience didn't
involve the two specific characteristics that seem to
be most important here (most talked about, anyway).
 
Now, on a related topic, dear to my own heart...
[snippety-doo-dah]

This is where I snipped the entire remainder of
Mike's post that you unnecessarily retained (and
did not comment on), as well as the entire,
un-edited and un-commented text of Dana's
message, to which Mike had replied.

In most of the other mailing lists in which I
participate, THAT is a crime, and gets your
knuckles soundly rapped.

Considerate replies trim and edit the text to
which they are replying, and never leave 50+ lines
of untouched old message at the end. It's not
friendly to people who receive individual messages,
because they often scroll down through the stale
stuff just to see your next comment, only to find
that you have no further comment. It's extremely
unfriendly to people who receive lists in digest
format.

I'm guilty myself, sometimes, but it's rare, and
it's always an embarrassing mistake, rather than
my standard don't-give-a-f*** policy.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm getting dizzy up
here on the soap-box.

(Sorry to stomp all over you for something that
many people do - including some of the list gurus -
but you handed me such a juicy example.  :-)

Kevin

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Darryl Gregorash
On 10/08/06 10:34, [hidden email] wrote:

>Basil Chupin [mailto:[hidden email]] replied to
>Mike Dewhirst, saying:
>
>[...]
>  
>>People who come here should already be posting-etiquette aware and if
>>they are not then it does not mean that they are simply new
>>SuSE users.
>>I was once a "newbie" to this forum but I didn't come here
>>ignorant of
>>how to or how not to post/reply to messages in mail lists or
>>newsgroups.
>>    
>
>On the other hand, I was a participant for years in BBS and
>internet mailing lists before I came to [SLE], but it was
>only here that I learned about:
>  
Apparently you never participated in any of the Fidonet "echoes" that I
did.. several of those were even worse -- much, much worse -- than the
recent flurry of activity here :-) Why, one could even get flamed for
using <colon-right_parenthesis> as a smiley.


>I'm sure I was an ignorant turd ....

There is also another class of user, certain to become more common as
Linux gains popularity, characterized by this email extract a friend
sent me recently:

"I used to work in technical support for a 24/7 call center! One day I got a
call from an individual who asked what hours the call center was open. I
told him, "The number you dialed is open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week." He
responded, "Is that Eastern or Pacific time?" Wanting to end the call
quickly, I said, "Uh, Pacific" . . He ALSO votes!"

Anyone want a copy of the complete email? :-) (All requests off-list
only, **please**)



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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Kenneth Schneider-2
On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 11:11 -0600, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
> On 10/08/06 10:34, [hidden email] wrote:
> >Basil Chupin [mailto:[hidden email]] replied to
> >Mike Dewhirst, saying:
> >
<snip>

This was posted on this list earlier this year and perhaps needs to be
repeated on occasion:

**********************************************************************

All,

We seem to be getting lots of new people on the list recently,
which is generally a good thing. However, some participants
seem to be a little inexperienced in how to write a reply.

Remember, this is not ICQ and Instant Messaging. You have some
control over where and how your text appears. Use it wisely.

In the interests of peace, good order, and getting lots of helpful
responses, would everybody please:

 - edit your replies -- that means trim off everything from  
    the old message except the paragraph or two to which
    you are replying.  
    Never reproduce somebody's signature and tag-lines,
    unless that is specifically what you are replying to.
    If somebody included a lengthy excerpt from a log file
    or a shell script, or program output, then everybody in
    the list received it at least once. They don't need you
    to quote it to them again - trim it out of your reply.

 - write your replies below the material to which you are
    replying -- that means, either start writing at the bottom,
    or else write your replies between paragraphs of the other
    person's message, and there should be no quoted text
    after your last sentence. Writing your replies above
    quoted material is called "top-posting" and it seems to
    offend some of the old-timers (the people with the most
    experience and knowledge, whom you would therefore
    least like to offend...), and it makes it difficult to follow an
    ongoing conversation.

    As well, if you leave a lot of untrimmed quoted text in
    a message, it annoys people who scroll all the way down,
    only to find out that you made them waste their time.
    People who are receiving a digest version have to scroll
    past all your useless quoting just to get to the next
    message in the digest. You want to be more polite
    and accommodating than that, don't you?  
    Good. We appreciate it.

If you are using KMail, then when you see a sentence or a paragraph
that really needs a response from you, highlight just that piece of
text
and press the "L" key. This creates a new message in the thread,
containing only the text that you highlighted, and addressed to the
mailing
list (not to the original sender, who doesn't really need or want to
see
two copies of your reply in his in-box). In other words, text-select
plus
"L" key does most of the things that list-etiquette requests. The only  
thing that it doesn't seem to do automatically is to place your cursor
at a starting position below the last line of quoted text. I guess the
makers of KMail wanted to leave something for you to do.

If you are using another mail program that doesn't support these KMail
functions........ fake it.

**********************************************************************

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Ken Schneider
UNIX  since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE  since 1998


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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Örn Hansen
In reply to this post by Peter Sutter

  For all you people who are so concerned with "netiqete", here is an example
of what you're not supposed to do.

  When you answer to a letter, nobody reading your answer is really interested
in reading the entire history of the entire thread.  Top post is "ok" in
cases, where you aren't answering to anything specific ... better yet, remove
the unnecesary lines.  And then you edit the lines, and include only
the "history" that you are actually answering to.

  But then ... nobody follows these netiquettes, but why don't YOU start.

:-)


torsdaginn 10 augusti 2006 15:24 skrev Peter Sutter:

> On Thursday 10 August 2006 13:20, Mike Dewhirst wrote:
> > Here is an axample of top-posting. So sue me :)
> >
> > The fact is that we should be pleased this list attracts people who
> > don't know the correct etiquette. IT MEANS (please forgive my shouting)
> > NON-SAVVY PEOPLE ARE USING (trying to use) SuSE! This has been said many
> > times before.
> >
> > Sure we need a protocol. Someone ought to write one and post it wherever
> > people sign up for this list. Then it would be easy to refer a hijacker
> > or otherwise uneducated beginner to that well written and politely
> > encouraging post.
> >
> > I think it is important to help newbies rather than repel them. If you
> > (oldies) want to depend on SuSE indefinitely it must grow in popularity.
> >
> > Things never stay the same. SuSE's popularity can either grow or shrink.
> > If it shrinks I have to switch my allegiance to another distro which I
> > can rely on to retain critical mass and continue indefinitely.
> >
> > Mail rage is repulsive.
> >
> > Mike
>
> Mike,
>
> I agree with you, but we should be even more tolerant to newcomers and
> ignorants.
>
> Since years I try to convince Microsoft users to switch over to Linux, SuSE
> Linux in particular, and when I could convince someone to make the switch,
> I feel that I have done the right thing.
>
> These newcomers need all the support we can give. Most of them have never
> subscribed to a mailing list before, so they would not know about
> 'netiquette'; but all of them are keen to adapt and learn. If they make
> mistakes like top posting or try to unsubscribe in an unsuitable way, we
> can tell them in a polite way; and they will learn. Yes, there are some
> dickheads out there that will never learn, whether with or without abuse.
>
> Unfortunately the Windows way is by trial and error, and this has gone into
> their blood, they believe that computers work that way and can't imagine
> that there are operating systems that behave predictably. With newcomers,
> this mentality  is initially carried over into the Linux environment.
>
> I believe that the purpose of the suse-linux-e mailing list is to
>
> 1. Give sensible information about SuSE Linux in particular and maybe Linux
> in general
>
> 2. To assist newcomers making the transition from either windows or another
> distro
>
> We have to ask ourselves why people want to unsubscribe from this list? Why
> would anyone unsubscribe? I can't imagine they are doing it because they
> know too much about SuSE Linux, but here are some reasons I can think off
> why they want to:
>
> Because they moved back to windows because they could not handle Linux
> Because they could not get the answers here
> Because they moved to another distro
> Because they got peed off by the sometimes abusive comments and answers
>
> If the unsubscribe request is for any of the above reasons, WE as
> professionals have NOT done our job; we have failed to get our message
> across. This hurts not only SuSE Linux but the wider Linux community.
>
> Lets be polite even to those that want to leave this list and make this
> list popular. I am sure all of us have the mental strength to do it.
>
> Peter

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Philipp Thomas
* Orn E. Hansen ([hidden email]) [20060810 23:18]:

> Top post is "ok" in cases, where you aren't answering to anything specific

IMNSHO, top posting is *never* OK, like reading a book back to front is
in most cases nonsense.

Philipp

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Daniel Bauer
Am Freitag, 11. August 2006 16:43 schrieb Philipp Thomas:
> > Top post is "ok" in cases, where you aren't answering to anything
> > specific
>
> IMNSHO, top posting is *never* OK, like reading a book back to front is
> in most cases nonsense.

I'd replace *never* by *in most cases not*. When buying a book I first look at
the back of it for a summary of it's contents (and yes: the price).

If somebody top posts "thanks, this was the solution" it can be quite a help
to identify the mail that contains the solution (and not the discussion to
find it).

Just my 2cents...

Daniel

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Philipp Thomas
* Daniel Bauer ([hidden email]) [20060811 17:07]:

> to identify the mail that contains the solution (and not the discussion to
> find it).

You do this by replying to the mail that helped. Any MUA that's worth being
called one will show the thread with its branches and will thus show which
mail contained the solution.

The better way would be to follow an old usenet tradition and finish of
such a thread by a mail that describes the original problem and the steps
you took to solve it.

Philipp

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Brad Bourn
In reply to this post by Philipp Thomas
Not all people / languages / logic is top down, left to right, front to
back.....


When I see a post that I know the answer to, and it is quick and simple, I top
post it.  


When I ask a question, I like to see the answer, not my question again, I
already know what I'm asking.


Search the archives and relegate me to your /dev/null, as I have my own
opinion and am not afraid to stand up for my beliefs.


B-)

On Friday 11 August 2006 8:43 am, Philipp Thomas wrote:

> * Orn E. Hansen ([hidden email]) [20060810 23:18]:
>
> > Top post is "ok" in cases, where you aren't answering to anything specific
>
> IMNSHO, top posting is *never* OK, like reading a book back to front is
> in most cases nonsense.
>
> Philipp
>
> --
> Check the headers for your unsubscription address
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>
>
>

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Patrick Shanahan
In reply to this post by Daniel Bauer
* Daniel Bauer <[hidden email]> [08-11-06 11:09]:
> I'd replace *never* by *in most cases not*. When buying a book I
> first look at the back of it for a summary of it's contents (and yes:
> the price).

  *never*
 
> If somebody top posts "thanks, this was the solution" it can be quite
> a help to identify the mail that contains the solution (and not the
> discussion to find it).

a two or three line quote with the 'thanks' below achieves your intent
and still follows acceptable protocol
 
> Just my 2cents...

My 3 cents, raise you and call
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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Philipp Thomas
In reply to this post by Brad Bourn
* Brad Bourn ([hidden email]) [20060811 17:12]:

> When I ask a question, I like to see the answer, not my question again, I
> already know what I'm asking.

Isn't that just a wee bit selfish? Normally you're not the only participant
of a given mailing list, so there are probably quite a few other people that
do *not* know you're question. Besides: never heard of sensible quoting?

Philipp


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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Brad Bourn
On Friday 11 August 2006 9:14 am, Philipp Thomas wrote:
> Isn't that just a wee bit selfish? Normally you're not the only participant
> of a given mailing list, so there are probably quite a few other people that
> do *not* know you're question. Besides: never heard of sensible quoting?


I don't think so, (search the archives, I stated this before) because if they
didn't know the question, it is still in the answerd email, below the answer.


When you search the archives, and see in the results the answer right there
first, it is for everyone that follows benefit.


It is much easier for me when searching to see the answers on top for the
previous email.  My client does threading nicely, and this is easier.


Understand that I'm not saying that it is better.  I'm saying that like for my
opinions, I don't expect everyone else to have the same.  I think your
opinion is just as valid as mine.  And that seems to be the crux of the
arguement.  I think your opinion is valid, regardless of whether it is the
same as mine.  You regard my opinion as invalid, becuase it is different than
yours.  Your opinion leaves no room for people who think for themselves, or
for any change whatsoever.  It is interesting that most of the policed
discussions always end up, when confronted with individual thinking and
logic, back to "this is the way the list has been, and is what is expected,
therefore, do it just because...".  I've always thought it odd that a list
for technology that is "open" could be so "closed".


B-)

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Patrick Shanahan
* Brad Bourn <[hidden email]> [08-11-06 11:27]:
> Understand that I'm not saying that it is better.  I'm saying that
> like for my opinions, I don't expect everyone else to have the same.
> I think your opinion is just as valid as mine.  And that seems to be
> the crux of the arguement.  I think your opinion is valid, regardless
> of whether it is the same as mine.  

and your next statement is where your reasoning fails:

> You regard my opinion as invalid, becuase it is different than yours.

because this is *only* your *assumption*!

> Your opinion leaves no room for people who think for themselves, or
> for any change whatsoever.

more assumption, or *only* your opinion

> It is interesting that most of the policed discussions always end up,
> when confronted with individual thinking and logic, back to "this is
> the way the list has been, and is what is expected, therefore, do it
> just because...".  

and you have pulled this out of who-knows-where (rather than stating
the real location) because it was not in the list of reasons presented.

> I've always thought it odd that a list for technology that is "open"
> could be so "closed".

more opinion

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Re: Thread Hijacking Protocol

Kenneth Schneider-2
In reply to this post by Brad Bourn
On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 09:31 -0600, Brad Bourn wrote:
> On Friday 11 August 2006 9:14 am, Philipp Thomas wrote:
<snip>
>
> Understand that I'm not saying that it is better.  I'm saying that like for my
> opinions, I don't expect everyone else to have the same.  I think your
> opinion is just as valid as mine.  And that seems to be the crux of the
> arguement.  I think your opinion is valid, regardless of whether it is the
> same as mine.  You regard my opinion as invalid,

We don't regard your opinion as invalid at all. Everyone is entitled to
their opinion. But you must also accept the ways of _this_ list. The
accepted practice on _this_ list is (and has been for many many years)
for bottom posting. Put your answer after the question not before. It is
also the accepted practice on _this_ list to trim out parts of email
that your reply does not apply to. If you moved to a different country
that did not speak your native language would you expect everyone to
learn your language because it is more convenient for you? It is all
about accepting what has been the _norm_ on this list (and has worked
well for many years), not suddenly expecting everyone else to change to
your way of thinking because your opinion is different. You can have
your opinion, just respect the opinion of the majority of the members of
this list.

--
Ken Schneider
UNIX  since 1989, linux since 1994, SuSE  since 1998


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12