SysV service error during dup on TW

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SysV service error during dup on TW

Ken Schneider - openSUSE
Today when I ran 'zypper dup' the following error appeared:

( 77/307) Installing: man-2.7.6-6.1.x86_64 ...........[done]
Additional rpm output:
SysV service man-db-create does not exist, skipping
Updating /etc/sysconfig/cron ...

Since TW has been using 'systemd' for quite a while why would the man
package still be trying to run a 'SysV' script?

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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Andrei Borzenkov
20.12.2017 19:47, Ken Schneider - Factory пишет:

> Today when I ran 'zypper dup' the following error appeared:
>
> ( 77/307) Installing: man-2.7.6-6.1.x86_64 ...........[done]
> Additional rpm output:
> SysV service man-db-create does not exist, skipping
> Updating /etc/sysconfig/cron ...
>
> Since TW has been using 'systemd' for quite a while why would the man
> package still be trying to run a 'SysV' script?
>

What makes you think it is "trying to run a 'SysV' script"?
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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Cristian Rodríguez-2
In reply to this post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Schneider - Factory
<[hidden email]> wrote:
 why would the man
> package still be trying to run a 'SysV' script?

It isn't.
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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Ken Schneider - openSUSE
On 12/20/2017 08:54 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Ken Schneider - Factory
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>   why would the man
>> package still be trying to run a 'SysV' script?
>
> It isn't.
>

Then what created this output:

SysV service man-db-create does not exist,

Looks like it clearly says something about a 'SysV service'

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SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998

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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
Hi Ken!

On 12/21/2017 07:09 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
> Then what created this output:
>
> SysV service man-db-create does not exist,
>
> Looks like it clearly says something about a 'SysV service'

I think you're misinterpreting this message.

From your original post:

( 77/307) Installing: man-2.7.6-6.1.x86_64 ...........[done]
Additional rpm output:
SysV service man-db-create does not exist, skipping
Updating /etc/sysconfig/cron ...

This means that the postinst script from the "man" package says that
your system doesn't have the SysV service "man-db-create" which is
why it's not trying to run the script in the first place.

This is just an information which you can ignore. The "man-db-create"
SysV script doesn't exist on your machine because your system doesn't
have SysVInit in the first place. It will just run the systemd equivalent
command to create the database for manpages.

So, you can just ignore this message.

Adrian
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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Johannes Meixner

Hello,

an addedum only FYI:

On Dec 21 19:24 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote (excerpt):

> On 12/21/2017 07:09 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
>> Then what created this output:
>>
>> SysV service man-db-create does not exist,
>>
>> Looks like it clearly says something about a 'SysV service'
>
> I think you're misinterpreting this message.
>
>> From your original post:
>
> ( 77/307) Installing: man-2.7.6-6.1.x86_64 ...........[done]
> Additional rpm output:
> SysV service man-db-create does not exist, skipping
> Updating /etc/sysconfig/cron ...
>
> This means that the postinst script from the "man" package says that
> your system doesn't have the SysV service "man-db-create" which is
> why it's not trying to run the script in the first place.
>
> This is just an information which you can ignore. The "man-db-create"
> SysV script doesn't exist on your machine because your system doesn't
> have SysVInit in the first place. It will just run the systemd equivalent
> command to create the database for manpages.
>
> So, you can just ignore this message.

I think messages that are meant to be ignored by the user
(i.e. messages that are meant only as optional information)
should not be shown to the user by default.

Normally such messages may appear only in a log file
or are shown to the user only in debug or verbose mode.

I don't know how excatly Ken Schneider ran 'zypper dup'
i.e. with or without '--verbose' or '--details'.


Cf.
"WARNING is a waste of my time"
at
http://blog.schlomo.schapiro.org/2015/04/warning-is-waste-of-my-time.html

You may also have a look at its origin
https://github.com/rear/rear/issues/564
therein in particular starting at
https://github.com/rear/rear/issues/564#issuecomment-86188528
and subsequent comments.


Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
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Graham Norton - HRB 21284 (AG Nuernberg)

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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
On 12/22/2017 09:33 AM, Johannes Meixner wrote:
> I think messages that are meant to be ignored by the user
> (i.e. messages that are meant only as optional information)
> should not be shown to the user by default.
>
> Normally such messages may appear only in a log file
> or are shown to the user only in debug or verbose mode.
>
> I don't know how excatly Ken Schneider ran 'zypper dup'
> i.e. with or without '--verbose' or '--details'.

Those messages usually show up as warning because it might not always
be known from the programmer's point of view whether the reported issues
might be a problem or not.

Warning basically says "I think this particular issue could cause an
issue on your system but that's not 100% sure so I'll just inform you
but let you continue anyway".

> Cf.
> "WARNING is a waste of my time"
> at
> http://blog.schlomo.schapiro.org/2015/04/warning-is-waste-of-my-time.html

Same here. Take gcc, for example. The compiler will warn you in many cases
when you forget to initialize variables or perform a cast with incompatible
data types which could result in your code crashing. However, since neither
are a violation of the C language specification, the compiler will just let
you continue. Sometimes the lack of initialization or the casts are intended
by the programmer.

And in this case, Ken was also misreading the message. It clearly said there
is no SysV script on the system, yet he assumed that was the case. Plus, the
warning is actually a hint to the programmer that this particular piece of
SysV code should be removed.

Adrian
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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Johannes Meixner

Hello John Paul Adrian Glaubitz,

I think you may have missed that I was talking about
what to show to the user _by_default_
and the reasoning behind
http://blog.schlomo.schapiro.org/2015/04/warning-is-waste-of-my-time.html

On Dec 22 10:00 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote (excerpt):
> Those messages usually show up as warning because it might not always
> be known from the programmer's point of view whether the reported issues
> might be a problem or not.

Of course, but see
https://github.com/rear/rear/issues/564#issuecomment-86418677

> Warning basically says "I think this particular issue could cause an
> issue on your system but that's not 100% sure so I'll just inform you
> but let you continue anyway".

Of course, but see
https://github.com/rear/rear/issues/564#issuecomment-86458179


Kind Regards
Johannes Meixner
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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
On 12/22/2017 01:26 PM, Johannes Meixner wrote:

>> Those messages usually show up as warning because it might not always
>> be known from the programmer's point of view whether the reported issues
>> might be a problem or not.
>
> Of course, but see
> https://github.com/rear/rear/issues/564#issuecomment-86418677
>
>> Warning basically says "I think this particular issue could cause an
>> issue on your system but that's not 100% sure so I'll just inform you
>> but let you continue anyway".
>
> Of course, but see
> https://github.com/rear/rear/issues/564#issuecomment-86458179

This isn't about shifting responsibility, this is simply a result of the fact
that most software simply cannot cover all potential configurations and use
cases that exist out there.

I don't understand why some people have to question fundamental design
principles of software just because one piece of software doesn't cover
their particular use case.

"I personally found warning messages to be pointless for my use cases,
  so they must be useless for everyone and every piece of software on
  the planet."

No one is hurt by a warning, but in some cases it gives you a hint what
to look for if you run into weird issues. You always have to keep in mind
that there are millions of different use cases and configurations out there,
including those people who use different init systems like OpenRC, different
kernels like BSD and what not. There are simply way too many moving parts and
variables to be able to write software which works 100% correct all the
time.

Adrian


 
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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Stefan Seyfried
In reply to this post by Johannes Meixner
On 22.12.2017 09:33, Johannes Meixner wrote:
> Cf.
> "WARNING is a waste of my time"
> at
> http://blog.schlomo.schapiro.org/2015/04/warning-is-waste-of-my-time.html

But in this case, there was no "WARNING", it was just a message.
It could still be just left off as it is useless IMHO anyway, but that's not my call ;)
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 public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Ken Schneider - openSUSE
In reply to this post by Johannes Meixner
On 12/22/2017 03:33 AM, Johannes Meixner wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> an addedum only FYI:
>
> On Dec 21 19:24 John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote (excerpt):
>> On 12/21/2017 07:09 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
>>> Then what created this output:
>>>
>>> SysV service man-db-create does not exist,
>>>
>>> Looks like it clearly says something about a 'SysV service'
>>
>> I think you're misinterpreting this message.
>>
>>> From your original post:
>>
>> ( 77/307) Installing: man-2.7.6-6.1.x86_64 ...........[done]
>> Additional rpm output:
>> SysV service man-db-create does not exist, skipping
>> Updating /etc/sysconfig/cron ...
>>
>> This means that the postinst script from the "man" package says that
>> your system doesn't have the SysV service "man-db-create" which is
>> why it's not trying to run the script in the first place.
>>
>> This is just an information which you can ignore. The "man-db-create"
>> SysV script doesn't exist on your machine because your system doesn't
>> have SysVInit in the first place. It will just run the systemd equivalent
>> command to create the database for manpages.
>>
>> So, you can just ignore this message.
>
> I think messages that are meant to be ignored by the user
> (i.e. messages that are meant only as optional information)
> should not be shown to the user by default.
>
> Normally such messages may appear only in a log file
> or are shown to the user only in debug or verbose mode.
>
> I don't know how excatly Ken Schneider ran 'zypper dup'
> i.e. with or without '--verbose' or '--details'.
>

I usually use 'zypper -vv dup'. Perhaps that is why I see the message.
Thanks for the info, I will just ignore any messages about SysV in the
future.


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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Ken Schneider - openSUSE
In reply to this post by John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
On 12/22/2017 04:00 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

> On 12/22/2017 09:33 AM, Johannes Meixner wrote:
>> I think messages that are meant to be ignored by the user
>> (i.e. messages that are meant only as optional information)
>> should not be shown to the user by default.
>>
>> Normally such messages may appear only in a log file
>> or are shown to the user only in debug or verbose mode.
>>
>> I don't know how excatly Ken Schneider ran 'zypper dup'
>> i.e. with or without '--verbose' or '--details'.
>
> Those messages usually show up as warning because it might not always
> be known from the programmer's point of view whether the reported issues
> might be a problem or not.
>
> Warning basically says "I think this particular issue could cause an
> issue on your system but that's not 100% sure so I'll just inform you
> but let you continue anyway".
>
>> Cf.
>> "WARNING is a waste of my time"
>> at
>> http://blog.schlomo.schapiro.org/2015/04/warning-is-waste-of-my-time.html
>
> Same here. Take gcc, for example. The compiler will warn you in many cases
> when you forget to initialize variables or perform a cast with incompatible
> data types which could result in your code crashing. However, since neither
> are a violation of the C language specification, the compiler will just let
> you continue. Sometimes the lack of initialization or the casts are intended
> by the programmer.
>
> And in this case, Ken was also misreading the message. It clearly said there
> is no SysV script on the system, yet he assumed that was the case.

I made no such assumption. I wondered why 'any' SysV code would need to
be run on a system without SysV installed.

  Plus, the
> warning is actually a hint to the programmer that this particular piece of
> SysV code should be removed.

Better would be (if possible) for the packager to not have any SysV
scripts be run at all if SysV is not installed.

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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

John Paul Adrian Glaubitz

> On Dec 22, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Ken Schneider - Factory <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/22/2017 04:00 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2017 09:33 AM, Johannes Meixner wrote:
>>> I think messages that are meant to be ignored by the user
>>> (i.e. messages that are meant only as optional information)
>>> should not be shown to the user by default.
>>>
>>> Normally such messages may appear only in a log file
>>> or are shown to the user only in debug or verbose mode.
>>>
>>> I don't know how excatly Ken Schneider ran 'zypper dup'
>>> i.e. with or without '--verbose' or '--details'.
>> Those messages usually show up as warning because it might not always
>> be known from the programmer's point of view whether the reported issues
>> might be a problem or not.
>> Warning basically says "I think this particular issue could cause an
>> issue on your system but that's not 100% sure so I'll just inform you
>> but let you continue anyway".
>>> Cf.
>>> "WARNING is a waste of my time"
>>> at
>>> http://blog.schlomo.schapiro.org/2015/04/warning-is-waste-of-my-time.html
>> Same here. Take gcc, for example. The compiler will warn you in many cases
>> when you forget to initialize variables or perform a cast with incompatible
>> data types which could result in your code crashing. However, since neither
>> are a violation of the C language specification, the compiler will just let
>> you continue. Sometimes the lack of initialization or the casts are intended
>> by the programmer.
>> And in this case, Ken was also misreading the message. It clearly said there
>> is no SysV script on the system, yet he assumed that was the case.
>
> I made no such assumption. I wondered why 'any' SysV code would need to be run on a system without SysV installed.

I said „SysV script“, not „SysV“. And it didn’t run anything, it said „skipping“. You just misread the message.

Adrian

> Plus, the
>> warning is actually a hint to the programmer that this particular piece of
>> SysV code should be removed.
>
> Better would be (if possible) for the packager to not have any SysV scripts be run at all if SysV is not installed.
>
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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Thorsten Kukuk
In reply to this post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
On Fri, Dec 22, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:

> I made no such assumption. I wondered why 'any' SysV code would need to be
> run on a system without SysV installed.

It does not try to run it, it looks during update, if there is a SysV init
script from the old package, and if that configuration needs to be migrated to systemd.
Make a fresh installation and you want see that message.
Make a second update, and you should not see that message, too.

> Better would be (if possible) for the packager to not have any SysV scripts
> be run at all if SysV is not installed.

Which is the case.

  Thorsten

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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Thorsten Kukuk
In reply to this post by Stefan Seyfried
On Fri, Dec 22, Stefan Seyfried wrote:

> It could still be just left off as it is useless IMHO anyway, but that's not my call ;)

It's only useless for you as you don't debug migration issues.
If you would do, you would not call it useless ;)

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Re: SysV service error during dup on TW

Andrei Borzenkov
In reply to this post by Thorsten Kukuk
23.12.2017 09:21, Thorsten Kukuk пишет:
> On Fri, Dec 22, Ken Schneider - Factory wrote:
>
>> I made no such assumption. I wondered why 'any' SysV code would need to be
>> run on a system without SysV installed.
>
> It does not try to run it, it looks during update, if there is a SysV init
> script from the old package, and if that configuration needs to be migrated to systemd.
> Make a fresh installation and you want see that message.

Actually you should *not* see this message  during fresh installation,
it should simply skip this code. If not, something went wrong.

> Make a second update, and you should not see that message, too.
>
>> Better would be (if possible) for the packager to not have any SysV scripts
>> be run at all if SysV is not installed.
>
> Which is the case.
>
>   Thorsten
>

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