Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

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Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Lew Wolfgang
Hi Folks,

I stopped receiving SuSE list mail on Oct 14 and
didn't realize what's going on until this afternoon.
lists.suse.de is listed in the sorbs dns-rbl database
as a source of spam.  As such, list messages will be
silently dropped on many ISPs.

Check it out at http://www.au.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml.

It would seem that the list owner should contact sorbs
to get de-listed.

Regards,
Lew Wolfgang

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Carlos E. R.-2
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The Saturday 2006-11-04 at 17:18 -0800, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

> I stopped receiving SuSE list mail on Oct 14 and
> didn't realize what's going on until this afternoon.
> lists.suse.de is listed in the sorbs dns-rbl database
> as a source of spam.  As such, list messages will be
> silently dropped on many ISPs.

Which demonstrates that it is a bad thing for ISPs to use black lists. I'm
lucky and happy that my ISP doesn't.

>
> Check it out at http://www.au.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml.

I checked the two IPs and they are not listed.


> It would seem that the list owner should contact sorbs
> to get de-listed.

Tell him directly.

- --
Cheers,
       Carlos E. R.
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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Avi Schwartz-6
Carlos E. R. wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> The Saturday 2006-11-04 at 17:18 -0800, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
>
>  
>> I stopped receiving SuSE list mail on Oct 14 and
>> didn't realize what's going on until this afternoon.
>> lists.suse.de is listed in the sorbs dns-rbl database
>> as a source of spam.  As such, list messages will be
>> silently dropped on many ISPs.
>>    
>
> Which demonstrates that it is a bad thing for ISPs to use black lists. I'm
> lucky and happy that my ISP doesn't.
>  
I can understand why ISPs use black lists.  Since October 29 at 4 AM (it
is not even 7 days since) my lowly home mail server blocked 3883 spam
messages mailed to me or my wife. I am using spamhaus, spamcop and the
likes.  None of SuSE's emails got blocked though so the ones I use at
least seem to do a good job.  This is on a system with only two users,
can you imagine what is going on at large ISP mail servers?  I don't
know if they have a choice.

Avi

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SPAM: RE: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Ted.Harding
In reply to this post by Lew Wolfgang
On 05-Nov-06 Lew Wolfgang wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I stopped receiving SuSE list mail on Oct 14 and
> didn't realize what's going on until this afternoon.
> lists.suse.de is listed in the sorbs dns-rbl database
> as a source of spam.  As such, list messages will be
> silently dropped on many ISPs.
>
> Check it out at http://www.au.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml.
>
> It would seem that the list owner should contact sorbs
> to get de-listed.

I doubt it. See what SORBS themselves have to say about
getting de-listed from their spam database:

  http://www.au.sorbs.net/faq/spamdb.shtml

  Third and finally, if you are really not a spammer,
  or you are truly reformed, de-listing is relatively
  easy. You donate US$50 to a charity or trust approved
  by, and not connected with, SORBS for each spam received
  related to the listing. This is referred to as the SORBS
  'fine'. Please note that we do not expect end users to
  take this route if it is the case that the listing is
  not related to your own actions, such as is most often
  the case with ISP's outgoing mail servers, co-located
  servers, free webmails, etc. being listed. In those
  cases, the ISP involved needs to contact SORBS directly,
  and if the end user contacts us instead, this will be
  all we will be able to tell them.

Note: $50 *for each spam received related to the listing.*
And note that this applies even "if you are really not a
spammer". That could be a lot of money, where an IP address
or "originating" email address has been spoofed by a mass
spammer.

This has been discussed in a number of places. SORBS seem
to be unique in this policy.

My suggestion to Lew Wolfgang, in the light of the above,
is not to use an ISP that uses SORBS. Neither SuSE nor your
ISP is unlikely (for the above reasons) to negotiate with
SORBS to get the SuSE list delisted, so if you want to
receive the SuSE list then change your ISP. (Or, perhaps,
lobby them to drop SORBS; but good luck with that!)

(Note that, on my understanding of the above, it is the
SuSE list that is the "end user").

Best wishes,
Ted.

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Date: 05-Nov-06                                       Time: 01:50:04
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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Lew Wolfgang
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
Carlos E. R. wrote:

>
> The Saturday 2006-11-04 at 17:18 -0800, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
>
>> I stopped receiving SuSE list mail on Oct 14 and
>> didn't realize what's going on until this afternoon.
>> lists.suse.de is listed in the sorbs dns-rbl database
>> as a source of spam.  As such, list messages will be
>> silently dropped on many ISPs.
>
> Which demonstrates that it is a bad thing for ISPs to use black lists. I'm
> lucky and happy that my ISP doesn't.

Well, this "bad thing" is dropping about 1,000 spams per day
on my server.  I'll continue to use rbl's, thank you.  It's
my choice since I'm my own ISP.  The lab where I work also
uses rbl's which, along with grey-listing, removes about
90,000 spams per day, which is about 90% of their total mail
traffic.

>> Check it out at http://www.au.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml.
>
> I checked the two IPs and they are not listed.

195.135.221.131 is the IP that's listed.  I don't know
which two you checked.

>
>> It would seem that the list owner should contact sorbs
>> to get de-listed.
>
> Tell him directly.

I presumed that my message would reach him/them, in addition
to alerting others of the problem.

Regards,
Lew Wolfgang

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Patrick Shanahan
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
* Carlos E. R. <[hidden email]> [11-04-06 20:32]:
> Which demonstrates that it is a bad thing for ISPs to use black
> lists. I'm lucky and happy that my ISP doesn't.

BUT rbl's are a *good* thing if you exclude sorbs.  I drop from 300-800
spams/day via rbl's locally.  And afaik, my isp (roadrunner) does not
utilize rbl's.  I am happy to control the use of rbl's myself  :^).
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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Darryl Gregorash
In reply to this post by Lew Wolfgang
On 2006-11-04 19:52, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
>>>It would seem that the list owner should contact sorbs
>>>to get de-listed.
>>>      
>>Tell him directly.
>>    
>
>I presumed that my message would reach him/them, in addition
>to alerting others of the problem.
The list owner doesn't necessarily read any of the suse lists; contact
[hidden email] (as per the header of every list message).

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SPAM: Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Ted.Harding
In reply to this post by Lew Wolfgang
On 05-Nov-06 Lew Wolfgang wrote:
> [...]
> Well, this "bad thing" is dropping about 1,000 spams per day
> on my server.  I'll continue to use rbl's, thank you.  It's
> my choice since I'm my own ISP.
> [...]

Ahh! Since Lew is his own ISP, the solution to SORBS is easy!
Just stop using them!

Best wishes,
Ted.

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Re: SPAM: Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Lew Wolfgang
(Ted Harding) wrote:
> On 05-Nov-06 Lew Wolfgang wrote:
>> [...]
>> Well, this "bad thing" is dropping about 1,000 spams per day
>> on my server.  I'll continue to use rbl's, thank you.  It's
>> my choice since I'm my own ISP.
>> [...]
>
> Ahh! Since Lew is his own ISP, the solution to SORBS is easy!
> Just stop using them!

Hi Ted,

Actually SORBS does a good job for me.  In the years that
I've been using it this is the first problem I've had.
In this case the solution is to white-list the offending
IP address.  I'll continue to use SORBS, and a few others.

Regards,
Lew Wolfgang

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Lew Wolfgang
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The Saturday 2006-11-04 at 17:52 -0800, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

> Well, this "bad thing" is dropping about 1,000 spams per day
> on my server.  I'll continue to use rbl's, thank you.  It's
> my choice since I'm my own ISP.  The lab where I work also
> uses rbl's which, along with grey-listing, removes about
> 90,000 spams per day, which is about 90% of their total mail
> traffic.

It is your choice. Just one unfair email dropped is enough for me not to
use them.


> >> Check it out at http://www.au.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml.
> >
> > I checked the two IPs and they are not listed.
>
> 195.135.221.131 is the IP that's listed.  I don't know
> which two you checked.

mx1.suse.de  and mx2.suse.de, the mail servers. You are checking
"lists.suse.de" which is not in the address from field.

lists.suse.de has been blacklisted, but the sorbs link you gave does not
tell the reason why, only that someone listed him.

Do you remember those people posting here now an then asking to be
unsubscribed? O for us to stop spamming him? I have received direct claims
like that. Perhaps one of those clueless people protested to sorbs and
they have listed SuSE without further investigation.

> >> It would seem that the list owner should contact sorbs
> >> to get de-listed.
> >
> > Tell him directly.
>
> I presumed that my message would reach him/them, in addition
> to alerting others of the problem.

Don't presume that.

It is in the list FAQ, and I know for certain that they don't always read
the list and have to be alerted of problems, like the spam tags in the
subject line.

- --
Cheers,
       Carlos E. R.
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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Avi Schwartz-6
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The Saturday 2006-11-04 at 19:45 -0600, Avi Schwartz wrote:

> This is on a system with only two users, can you imagine what is going
> on at large ISP mail servers?  I don't know if they have a choice.

Oh, yes, I can imagine.

My ISP has users in the million count, and they don't use any shuch thing
as black listing, AFAIK. It is my job to filter spam, or to pay them to do
it for me.

For one thing, they are often listed themselves!

- --
Cheers,
       Carlos E. R.

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

John Andersen
On Saturday 04 November 2006 17:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>  It is my job to filter spam, or to pay them to do
> it for me.

Now there's a scam I would like to see outlawed.  It costs an ISP more
to handle spam than to deal filter it, so why charge anybody?

As long as there is someone making money off of spam there
will always be spam.  How serious will any ISP be about anti-spam
measures if they are making money off of it?

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Carlos E. R.-2
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The Saturday 2006-11-04 at 18:08 -0900, John Andersen wrote:

> On Saturday 04 November 2006 17:52, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> >  It is my job to filter spam, or to pay them to do
> > it for me.
>
> Now there's a scam I would like to see outlawed.  It costs an ISP more
> to handle spam than to deal filter it, so why charge anybody?
>
> As long as there is someone making money off of spam there
> will always be spam.  How serious will any ISP be about anti-spam
> measures if they are making money off of it?

Because if they did filter by default their basic charges would be higher.
I prefer to pay less and to do it my self, where I have full control.
There are other extra services, like virus protection, parental control
whatever and other things. It is a business, they charge for things.

Of course, there are mail providers out there that provide such things for
free, or so it seems: I know they are charging me for that in hidden ways.


By the way, I'm not sure it cost them more money to handle spam than
filter it. Passing on the spam received is just some resources. Filtering
them is, I think, extra resources and man power. Using filters like
spamassassin are very cpu intensive; and any way, that spam mail has
entered their servers, so they store it in our folders that have limited
space, anyway.

- --
Cheers,
       Carlos E. R.

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Matt T.
In reply to this post by Lew Wolfgang
On Sunday 05 November 2006 08:18, Lew Wolfgang wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> I stopped receiving SuSE list mail on Oct 14 and
> didn't realize what's going on until this afternoon.
> lists.suse.de is listed in the sorbs dns-rbl database
> as a source of spam.  As such, list messages will be
> silently dropped on many ISPs.
>
> Check it out at http://www.au.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml.
>
> It would seem that the list owner should contact sorbs
> to get de-listed.
>
> Regards,
> Lew Wolfgang

SORBS sucks big time.

Quote:
"SORBS is operated by a vindictive college student named "Matthew Sullivan".
SORBS (and most similar DNSBLs) are run on volunteer labor. As a result SORBS
is creating a problem it can't control or handle by virtue of the fact that
it's using flimsy tests to make authorative designations of fact which may
not yet be reasonably ascertainable on today's internet, and certainly, not
with the petty trivial testing that is currently taking place. There are a
huge amount of false positives, and legitimate emails en masse are blocked by
SORBS. No qualified postmaster is using them, as soon as they have taken a
closer look at them."

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Matt T.
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
On Sunday 05 November 2006 10:25, Carlos E. R. wrote:
...
> By the way, I'm not sure it cost them more money to handle spam than
> filter it. Passing on the spam received is just some resources. Filtering
> them is, I think, extra resources and man power. Using filters like
> spamassassin are very cpu intensive; and any way, that spam mail has
> entered their servers, so they store it in our folders that have limited
> space, anyway.

Use greylisting - the spam email does not enter the system, with _no_ false
positives.

No need to use dubious blacklists such as SORBS which justifies their actions
with IEEE _drafts_ they submitted themselves...

I did run and still do a test where I let the same email be seen by
greylisting and by some blacklists, and so far greylisting does catch more,
and the blacklist does not add additional value.

I'm fully aware though that this will change once the spammers adapt and built
more mail server functionality in their spam bomb software.

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

kj-12
In reply to this post by Lew Wolfgang
On Sat, 2006-11-04 at 17:18 -0800, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I stopped receiving SuSE list mail on Oct 14 and
> didn't realize what's going on until this afternoon.
> lists.suse.de is listed in the sorbs dns-rbl database
> as a source of spam.

Don't use sorbs.  While I think blacklists is an excellent idea, sorbs
has proven themselves to be extremely liberal at blacklisting domains.
Someone received a mail with a forged From: field (the From: part being
our domain).  They checked where our mail was hosted and blacklisted
that IP.  Then they charged us $50 to remove the listing (how can that
be legal), and didn't remove it at all.  We moved our mail server to a
different hosting facility more than a year ago, and got a new IP in the
process.  The old IP is *still* listed at sorbs...

Hans

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

John-203
Hans du Plooy wrote:

> On Sat, 2006-11-04 at 17:18 -0800, Lew Wolfgang wrote:
>  
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> I stopped receiving SuSE list mail on Oct 14 and
>> didn't realize what's going on until this afternoon.
>> lists.suse.de is listed in the sorbs dns-rbl database
>> as a source of spam.
>>    
>
> Don't use sorbs.  While I think blacklists is an excellent idea, sorbs
> has proven themselves to be extremely liberal at blacklisting domains.
> Someone received a mail with a forged From: field (the From: part being
> our domain).  They checked where our mail was hosted and blacklisted
> that IP.  Then they charged us $50 to remove the listing (how can that
> be legal), and didn't remove it at all.  We moved our mail server to a
> different hosting facility more than a year ago, and got a new IP in the
> process.  The old IP is *still* listed at sorbs...
>
> Hans
>
>  
Wasn' t there a case of an incorrectly blacklisted company suing the
likes of sorbs for defamation recently?

Don't pay the $50 - sue them for all they've got.

J

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Carlos E. R.-2
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The Monday 2006-11-06 at 12:05 -0000, John wrote:

> Wasn' t there a case of an incorrectly blacklisted company suing the likes of
> sorbs for defamation recently?

Yes, more or less. It was comented here, I think, search the archive.

- --
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       Carlos E. R.

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

kj-12
In reply to this post by John-203
On Mon, 2006-11-06 at 12:05 +0000, John wrote:

> Hans du Plooy wrote:
> > Don't use sorbs.  While I think blacklists is an excellent idea, sorbs
> > has proven themselves to be extremely liberal at blacklisting domains.
> > Someone received a mail with a forged From: field (the From: part being
> > our domain).  They checked where our mail was hosted and blacklisted
> > that IP.  Then they charged us $50 to remove the listing (how can that
> > be legal), and didn't remove it at all.  We moved our mail server to a
> > different hosting facility more than a year ago, and got a new IP in the
> > process.  The old IP is *still* listed at sorbs...
> >
> > Hans
> >
> >  
> Wasn' t there a case of an incorrectly blacklisted company suing the
> likes of sorbs for defamation recently?

I sure hope so - they deserve it.

The postfix user list has had a few threads on just why SORBS is so bad.
Interesting reading....

Hans

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Re: Suse mailing list relay listed at SORBS as spam source

Patrick Shanahan
* Hans du Plooy <[hidden email]> [11-06-06 12:20]:
> The postfix user list has had a few threads on just why SORBS is so bad.
> Interesting reading....

from several years  :^)
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Patrick Shanahan                        Registered Linux User #207535
http://wahoo.no-ip.org                        @ http://counter.li.org
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