Steps for creating Spanish variants?

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Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Javier Llorente-2
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Hello,

The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations
into two variants:

- - Castilian Spanish: es_ES (decided). I think we could start with this
one.
- - Latin American Spanish: es_LAT or a specific one, such es_AR (to be
decided by them).

What are the next steps?

Greetings,
- --
Javier Llorente

*Thread:
http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-translation-es/2015-08/msg00000.html
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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-09-04 21:59, Javier Llorente wrote:
> Hello,
>
> The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the
> translations into two variants:

¡FALSE!

We have not decided such a thing.

:-/

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Javier Llorente-2
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On 05/09/15 03:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-09-04 21:59, Javier Llorente wrote:
>> Hello,
>
>> The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the
>> translations into two variants:
>
> ¡FALSE!
>
> We have not decided such a thing.
>
> :-/
>
>

We (all the active translators) have voted, haven't we?
Please don't use caps and be a bit more verbose next time.


Greetings,
- --
Javier Llorente
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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-09-05 11:50, Javier Llorente wrote:

> On 05/09/15 03:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2015-09-04 21:59, Javier Llorente wrote:
>>> Hello,
>
>>> The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the
>>> translations into two variants:
>
>> ¡FALSE!
>
>> We have not decided such a thing.
>
>> :-/
>
>
>
> We (all the active translators) have voted, haven't we? Please
> don't use caps and be a bit more verbose next time.

I'm angry, so I use CAPS.

Gabriel and me are the coordinators, so you should have contacted us
to do the official request. WE should have been the ones to announce a
decision.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Karl Ove Hufthammer
In reply to this post by Javier Llorente-2
Den 04. sep. 2015 21:59, Javier Llorente skreiv:
> The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations
> into two variants:
>
> - - Castilian Spanish: es_ES (decided). I think we could start with this
> one.
> - - Latin American Spanish: es_LAT or a specific one, such es_AR (to be
> decided by them).

This decision doesn’t make sense. There is no es_LAT locale, and it’s
*not even a syntactically valid* locale code (ref. BCP 47). I’m not sure
exactly what es_LAT is supposed to cover, but it seems to me that es_419
would be the appropriate locale code:
http://www.localeplanet.com/icu/es-419/index.html

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Alexander Melentev
> Den 04. sep. 2015 21:59, Javier Llorente skreiv:
>>
>> The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations
>> into two variants:
>>
>> - - Castilian Spanish: es_ES (decided). I think we could start with this
>> one.
>> - - Latin American Spanish: es_LAT or a specific one, such es_AR (to be
>> decided by them).
The only action that makes sense now is renaming current "es" to
"es_ES" just to stress out this is for metropolian Spanish. If any
other volunteer for specific region will show up later, then another
folder should be created with proper locale name.


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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Karl Eichwalder-2
I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a translation of the variant is not available.
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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Javier Llorente-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
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On 06/09/15 21:57, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-09-05 11:50, Javier Llorente wrote:
>> On 05/09/15 03:21, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> On 2015-09-04 21:59, Javier Llorente wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>
>>>> The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the
>>>> translations into two variants:
>
>>> ¡FALSE!
>
>>> We have not decided such a thing.
>
>>> :-/
>
>
>
>> We (all the active translators) have voted, haven't we? Please
>> don't use caps and be a bit more verbose next time.
>
> I'm angry, so I use CAPS.
>
> Gabriel and me are the coordinators, so you should have contacted
> us to do the official request. WE should have been the ones to
> announce a decision.

Thanks for being more verbose. But still, there's no reason to shout :P
No one said anything in several weeks.

Cheers,
- --
Javier Llorente
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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Karl Eichwalder-2
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On 2015-09-07 08:03, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South
> American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are
> demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a
> translation of the variant is not available.

And how would anybody decide which variant? The differences between
South/Central American Spanish variants are quite large, same as with
es_ES. And we don't have those resources.


- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Karl Eichwalder
"Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 2015-09-07 08:03, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>> I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South
>> American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are
>> demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a
>> translation of the variant is not available.
>
> And how would anybody decide which variant?

I'd say the one who provides the translation -- in the open source
context, that's the only way that could work.

> The differences between South/Central American Spanish variants are
> quite large, same as with es_ES. And we don't have those resources.

I'd pick one or two of the bigger Countries (AR or MX).  Of course, if a
translator from, say, CR would not feel comfortable neither with AR nor
MX, it would be fine to start with es_CR (in addition to plain and
hopefully very international "es").

This all depends on those who actually want to do translations.  I would
not create SVN directories "in advance".

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-09-07 14:22, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

> "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>> On 2015-09-07 08:03, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>>> I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South
>>> American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are
>>> demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if
>>> a translation of the variant is not available.
>>
>> And how would anybody decide which variant?
>
> I'd say the one who provides the translation -- in the open source
> context, that's the only way that could work.

Till now, the consensus was to provide a single translation using
language accepted by all. But some of the new translators do not
accept this agreement and want to split the Spain variant.

This being so, I'm considering to quit.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Javier Llorente-2
In reply to this post by Karl Eichwalder-2
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On 07/09/15 08:03, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
> I think you'd better keep es for now, and start with a South
> American (es_AR) (and European (es_ES)) variant, if there are
> demand and resources. Then we would use "es" as a fallback, if a
> translation of the variant is not available.
>

Another option could be making "es" a symlink to "es_ES", for instance
(as a fallback).

Greetings,
- --
Javier Llorente
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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Karl Eichwalder
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
"Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]> writes:

> Till now, the consensus was to provide a single translation using
> language accepted by all. But some of the new translators do not
> accept this agreement and want to split the Spain variant.

I do not see why we could not keep "es" as-is and add other variants as
needed or as provided.  Once more translations are available, we'd have
to discuss how to enable them in the system.

Here in Germany we added one or two flavors some time ago (esp. "nds"),
but in written context and especially as a computer language they are
not used by native speakers.  Bavarian or "Austrian" ( ;-) ) is widely
used, but as a GUI language is would be confusing; of course, some of
the vocabulary would make sense (e.g., "Jänner" instead of "Januar").

Spanish issues have to be decided by Spanish native speakers.  But I'd
recommend to be as conservative as possible.  With those changes, you
quickly can do more harm than good.  Users are probably used to the
state of the art and "happy" with it (even if some term are "foreign").

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-09-07 16:49, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

> "Carlos E. R." <> writes:
>
>> Till now, the consensus was to provide a single translation
>> using language accepted by all. But some of the new translators
>> do not accept this agreement and want to split the Spain
>> variant.
>
> I do not see why we could not keep "es" as-is and add other
> variants as needed or as provided.  Once more translations are
> available, we'd have to discuss how to enable them in the system.

Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till now was
the generic one, and now would be the specific for Spain.


> Spanish issues have to be decided by Spanish native speakers.  But
> I'd recommend to be as conservative as possible.  With those
> changes, you quickly can do more harm than good.  Users are
> probably used to the state of the art and "happy" with it (even if
> some term are "foreign").

I agree. :-(

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Vojtěch Zeisek-2
In reply to this post by Javier Llorente-2
Hi

Dne Pá 4. září 2015 21:59:55, Javier Llorente napsal(a):
> The Spanish translation team has decided* to split the translations
> into two variants:
>
> - Castilian Spanish: es_ES (decided). I think we could start with this
> one.
> - Latin American Spanish: es_LAT or a specific one, such es_AR (to be
> decided by them).

My knowledge of Spanish is not great, but I'm learning Castilian variant and
in every South American country I experienced little bit different language.
Of course, I don't know how big differences are related to IT. It seems to me
that variability between any two South American Spanish-speaking countries is
of comparable degree of magnitude as between Spain and any South American
Spanish-speaking country. So that es_LAT seems useless for me. And what about
Spanish variant used in Philippines? :-)
But of course, this is fully decision of Spanish team... But when it is
discussed here...
Sincerely,
Vojtěch

--
Vojtěch Zeisek

Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux

http://www.opensuse.org/
http://trapa.cz/

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Karl Ove Hufthammer
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Den 07. sep. 2015 19:10, Carlos E. R. skreiv:

>>> >>Till now, the consensus was to provide a single translation
>>> >>using language accepted by all. But some of the new translators
>>> >>do not accept this agreement and want to split the Spain
>>> >>variant.
>> >
>> >I do not see why we could not keep "es" as-is and add other
>> >variants as needed or as provided.  Once more translations are
>> >available, we'd have to discuss how to enable them in the system.
> Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till now was
> the generic one, and now would be the specific for Spain.

Am I correct in assuming that the current translation is in what’s
sometimes called ‘neutral Spanish’ or ‘Standard Spanish’? See

http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/what-is-neutral-spanish.aspx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish

For example, if it actively tries to avoid using words and expression
only used in certain Spanish-speaking countries (e.g. Spain), plain ‘es’
is certainly the right language code, and the translation would be
appropriate for many es_* locales.

But if the current translation instead uses words, expression and
terminology specific to Spain, ‘es_ES’ is the right language code, and
the translation files should be renamed. (Note that this doesn’t stop
people in other locales using this translation if they want, e.g., by
setting the LANGUAGE variable.)

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-09-09 19:01, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
> Den 07. sep. 2015 19:10, Carlos E. R. skreiv:


>> Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till now
>> was the generic one, and now would be the specific for Spain.
>
> Am I correct in assuming that the current translation is in what’s
> sometimes called ‘neutral Spanish’ or ‘Standard Spanish’? See
>
> http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/what-is-neutral-spanish.aspx 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish

I was not aware of the definition, but yes, indeed, that was our goal
when we started several years ago.

> For example, if it actively tries to avoid using words and
> expression only used in certain Spanish-speaking countries (e.g.
> Spain), plain ‘es’ is certainly the right language code, and the
> translation would be appropriate for many es_* locales.

Well, yes. The current translation should be 'es', and the new branch
would be "es_ES".

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Javier Llorente-2
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On 09/09/15 19:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-09-09 19:01, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
>> Den 07. sep. 2015 19:10, Carlos E. R. skreiv:
>
>
>>> Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till
>>> now was the generic one, and now would be the specific for
>>> Spain.
>
>> Am I correct in assuming that the current translation is in
>> what’s sometimes called ‘neutral Spanish’ or ‘Standard Spanish’?
>> See
>
>> http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/what-is-neutral-spanish.aspx
>>
>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish

>
> I was not aware of the definition, but yes, indeed, that was our
> goal when we started several years ago.
>
>> For example, if it actively tries to avoid using words and
>> expression only used in certain Spanish-speaking countries (e.g.
>> Spain), plain ‘es’ is certainly the right language code, and the
>> translation would be appropriate for many es_* locales.
>
> Well, yes. The current translation should be 'es', and the new
> branch would be "es_ES".

I think it's a good option; "es" for those who want to keep using the
same translation style and "es_ES" for those who want to translate it
into Castilian Spanish. We would need to use an extra word on menus;
Spanish (neutral), Spanish (Spain) or Neutral Spanish, Castilian
Spanish, for example.

Greetings,
- --
Javier Llorente
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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Javier Llorente-2
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On 10/09/15 22:44, Javier Llorente wrote:

> On 09/09/15 19:39, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2015-09-09 19:01, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote:
>>> Den 07. sep. 2015 19:10, Carlos E. R. skreiv:
>
>
>>>> Because the variant they want to create is es-ES, which till
>>>> now was the generic one, and now would be the specific for
>>>> Spain.
>
>>> Am I correct in assuming that the current translation is in
>>> what’s sometimes called ‘neutral Spanish’ or ‘Standard
>>> Spanish’? See
>
>>> http://blog.globalizationpartners.com/what-is-neutral-spanish.aspx
>>>
>>>
>
>>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Spanish

>
>> I was not aware of the definition, but yes, indeed, that was our
>> goal when we started several years ago.
>
>>> For example, if it actively tries to avoid using words and
>>> expression only used in certain Spanish-speaking countries
>>> (e.g. Spain), plain ‘es’ is certainly the right language code,
>>> and the translation would be appropriate for many es_*
>>> locales.
>
>> Well, yes. The current translation should be 'es', and the new
>> branch would be "es_ES".
>
> I think it's a good option; "es" for those who want to keep using
> the same translation style and "es_ES" for those who want to
> translate it into Castilian Spanish. We would need to use an extra
> word on menus; Spanish (neutral), Spanish (Spain) or Neutral
> Spanish, Castilian Spanish, for example.

That said, I think that "es" is going to end up being "neutral" Latin
American Spanish, since I don't think that many European Spanish
translators would translate the distribution into "neutral Spanish"
having their own variant, Castilian Spanish.
"International Spanish" is a better choice for "es", isn't it?

Greetings,
- --
Javier Llorente
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Re: Steps for creating Spanish variants?

Carlos E. R.-3
On 2015-09-10 22:58, Javier Llorente wrote:

> That said, I think that "es" is going to end up being "neutral"
> Latin American Spanish, since I don't think that many European
> Spanish translators would translate the distribution into "neutral
> Spanish" having their own variant, Castilian Spanish.
> "International Spanish" is a better choice for "es", isn't it?

I would contribute to the "es", neutral, variant.

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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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