Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

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Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Javier Llorente-2
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Hello everyone,

I have been talking with openSUSE fellow contributors in #opensuse-es
and some of us (Spanish translators) think that it would be better to
split the Spanish translation of the distribution into two variants:

- - Castilian Spanish (es or es_ES)
- - Latin American Spanish (es_LAT)

Why?
- - Better, more targeted translations
- - Faster translations since we don't "correct" each other
- - There aren't lots of new strings, so we can take care of it even
with few people

There are already Portuguese variants. So why not Spanish?

I propose making a copy of "es", so that in the end we have "es" (or
"es_ES") and "es_LAT".


Greetings,
- --
Javier Llorente
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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-08-06 23:50, Javier Llorente wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I have been talking with openSUSE fellow contributors in
> #opensuse-es and some of us (Spanish translators) think that it
> would be better to split the Spanish translation of the
> distribution into two variants:

Why don't you propose that in the Spanish translation mail list?
You have first got to find out if there are enough people there to
keep those two branches.

That's where ALL the Spanish translators talk, not at #opensuse-es.
I have no idea about those other people.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Spanish translations and others

ddemaio
In reply to this post by Javier Llorente-2
Hi all,
I just wanted to add my two cents to this espanol topic conversation  
and hopefully you all agree with my view.

On the github contribution portio n -  
https://github.com/cyntss/opensuse-landing-page, paragraph 3 states:
Duplicate the file assets/js/langpack/translation-template.json and  
name the new file with the International code of language  
representation of the language you will translate. If you dont know  
the interntional code of your language you can find at  
https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php under ISO  
639-1 Code

The way I see it is we should not make any decisions about languages  
and by applying this international list we don't make a decision.  
Anyone that wants to contribute can and if the language is on the list  
it can be used. I think we should follow the list -  
https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php like it is  
recommended above. This helps openSUSE avoid making a decision that  
could be viewed as political. It also allows us to respect others  
through applying an international standard. When we apply the loc.gov  
standard, this alleviates us from making a decision that could be  
viewed as political.
v/r
Doug


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Re: Spanish translations and others

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-08-07 11:45, Douglas DeMaio wrote:

> Hi all, I just wanted to add my two cents to this espanol topic
> conversation and hopefully you all agree with my view.
>
> On the github contribution portio n -
> https://github.com/cyntss/opensuse-landing-page, paragraph 3
> states: Duplicate the file
> assets/js/langpack/translation-template.json and name the new file
> with the International code of language representation of the
> language you will translate. If you dont know the interntional
> code of your language you can find at
> https://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/php/code_list.php under ISO
> 639-1 Code


That list has:

spa es Spanish; Castilian espagnol; castillan

and doesn't mention any of the variants, save "ladino" :-?

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

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Re: Spanish translations and others

Stephan Kulow-3
In reply to this post by ddemaio
On 07.08.2015 11:45, Douglas DeMaio wrote:
> through applying an international standard. When we apply the loc.gov
> standard, this alleviates us from making a decision that could be viewed
> as political.

Hi Douglas,

International standards are always dominated by large countries. So
following international standards is already a political decision, sorry.

And languages, countries, regions *are* a very touchy topic.

Sometimes you have to pick sides:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Voting_res_2758.png is a neat example

Another https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80330

Greetings, Stephan

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Re: Spanish translations and others

ddemaio
Quoting Stephan Kulow <[hidden email]>:

> On 07.08.2015 11:45, Douglas DeMaio wrote:
>> through applying an international standard. When we apply the loc.gov
>> standard, this alleviates us from making a decision that could be viewed
>> as political.
>
> Hi Douglas,
>
> International standards are always dominated by large countries. So
> following international standards is already a political decision, sorry.

True, true Stephan, Have a good weekend.

v/r
Doug

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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
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On Friday, 2015-08-07 at 03:13 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> On 2015-08-06 23:50, Javier Llorente wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I have been talking with openSUSE fellow contributors in
>> #opensuse-es and some of us (Spanish translators) think that it
...
> Why don't you propose that in the Spanish translation mail list?
...
> That's where ALL the Spanish translators talk, not at #opensuse-es.
> I have no idea about those other people.


Maybe there is some confusion here.

There are two groups of translators. The group here, in this list,
translate software applications, using the "GNU ‘gettext’ utilities", ie,
standard .pot and .po files.

There is another group that translates the openSUSE wiki and other web
elements (I believe). They are not in this mail list.



Exceptionally, the translators in this mail list, the software
translators, translate web pages, on request. Because we are asked to
translate something important and fast. We usually do it, but we ask them
to provide us with .pot files so that we can use our tools and procedures.

This is what was done with the new landing page.


And about splitting the Spanish translation, I don't oppose it: but we
don't have the people for it. Consider that none of the translators has
commented on it, yet. Maybe if you ask in the Spanish translation list
they will, because few read the English one.


- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

jcsl
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
El Viernes, 7 de agosto de 2015 03:13:10 Carlos E. R. escribió:

> On 2015-08-06 23:50, Javier Llorente wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I have been talking with openSUSE fellow contributors in
> > #opensuse-es and some of us (Spanish translators) think that it
> > would be better to split the Spanish translation of the
>
> > distribution into two variants:
> Why don't you propose that in the Spanish translation mail list?
> You have first got to find out if there are enough people there to
> keep those two branches.
>
> That's where ALL the Spanish translators talk, not at #opensuse-es.
> I have no idea about those other people.
>
> --
> Cheers / Saludos,
>
> Carlos E. R.
>
>   (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))

Hi.

We talked about it in the IRC channel, and I think that it makes sense because
while translating I've found:

* words I've never read before because, according to the RAE dictionary, are
typical of some regions of south America,
* words with different punctuation marks that I "fix" unconsciously just because
I see them as mistakes,
* and words that have different meaning, even an offensive one.

Obviously, the opposite must be true for our friends from the other side of
the ocean. So the split would be a sane decision. I think it doesn't add a lot
of work for any of the parts because it's just a matter of changing the words
that doesn't fit well in your location starting from the current translation.

Greetings.

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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2015-08-07 22:25, jcsl wrote:

> Hi.
>
> We talked about it in the IRC channel, and I think that it makes sense because
> while translating I've found:

You have to talk it in our official channel, the Spanish openSUSE
translation mail list.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)


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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

jcsl
El Viernes, 7 de agosto de 2015 23:46:14 Carlos E. R. escribió:
> On 2015-08-07 22:25, jcsl wrote:
> > Hi.
> >
> > We talked about it in the IRC channel, and I think that it makes sense
> > because
> > while translating I've found:
> You have to talk it in our official channel, the Spanish openSUSE
> translation mail list.

Hi.

If the split is done it may require some changes in the infrastructure, so I
think it's ok to talk about it here. There could be technicals or any other
kind of reasons that prevent the operation.

Besides this, there's very little movement in our channel. You have been
practically the only one that helped me when I made questions there. It may be
that I only asks nonsense but anyway... :)

Greetings.
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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-08-08 00:25, jcsl wrote:

> If the split is done it may require some changes in the
> infrastructure, so I think it's ok to talk about it here. There
> could be technicals or any other kind of reasons that prevent the
> operation.

But it is they who have to decide if there will be a split.


> Besides this, there's very little movement in our channel. You have
> been practically the only one that helped me when I made questions
> there. It may be that I only asks nonsense but anyway... :)

Because there is little need to talk, and people are busy :-)
People just translate when they can.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Javier Llorente-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
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On 07/08/15 03:13, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-08-06 23:50, Javier Llorente wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>
>> I have been talking with openSUSE fellow contributors in
>> #opensuse-es and some of us (Spanish translators) think that it
>> would be better to split the Spanish translation of the
>> distribution into two variants:
>
> Why don't you propose that in the Spanish translation mail list?
> You have first got to find out if there are enough people there to
> keep those two branches.

That's what I'm doing, proposing the change here.

> That's where ALL the Spanish translators talk, not at
> #opensuse-es. I have no idea about those other people.

It's another channel of communication, isn't it? ;)

According to Vertaal* there are 11 translators (+ 2 coordinators) in
the Spanish team. Of course, some of them might be inactive. But
still, I think that we are enough people.

* https://www.vertaal.tk/teams/opensuse/es/

Greetings,
- --
Javier Llorente
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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-08-08 02:12, Javier Llorente wrote:
> On 07/08/15 03:13, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> Why don't you propose that in the Spanish translation mail list?
>>  You have first got to find out if there are enough people there
>> to keep those two branches.
>
> That's what I'm doing, proposing the change here.

You have to propose it where the rest of the team is. In the Spanish
translation mail list. I refuse to argue the subject here.

opensuse-translation-es at opensuse.org

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Javier Llorente-2
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On Thursday, 2015-08-06 at 23:50 +0200, Javier Llorente wrote:

> split the Spanish translation of the distribution into two variants:
>
> - Castilian Spanish (es or es_ES)
> - Latin American Spanish (es_LAT)

I just noticed that the es_LAT locale does not exist. These are the ones
I can find in my system:

cer@Telcontar:~> locale -a | grep es
es_AR
es_AR.utf8
es_BO
es_BO.utf8
es_CL
es_CL.utf8
es_CO
es_CO.utf8
es_CR
es_CR.utf8
es_CU
es_DO
es_DO.utf8
es_EC
es_EC.utf8
es_ES
es_ES.utf8
es_ES@euro
es_GT
es_GT.utf8
es_HN
es_HN.utf8
es_MX
es_MX.utf8
es_NI
es_NI.utf8
es_PA
es_PA.utf8
es_PE
es_PE.utf8
es_PR
es_PR.utf8
es_PY
es_PY.utf8
es_SV
es_SV.utf8
es_US
es_US.utf8
es_UY
es_UY.utf8
es_VE
es_VE.utf8
cer@Telcontar:~>



See locale(1p)

        LANG   Provide a default value for the internationalization
variables that are unset or null. (See the Base Definitions volume of IEEE
Std 1003.1-2001, Section 8.2, Internationalization Variables for the
precedence  of internationalization variables used to determine the values
of locale categories.)

That section is here, but it does not list valid codes:

http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap08.html



All language codes I can see in "/usr/lib/locale/" are two letter, none
has three (ie: xx_YY).

Linux may be following ISO 639-1 for the first group of letters
(language). The second group I think represents country, I believe
following ISO 3166-1 alpha-2 (which is two letter):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2


Three letter country codes (which I don't know if Linux supports) can be
found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-3

But "LAT" is not listed there. The official source is here:

https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#search


But "LAT" doesn't find anything.


If someone knows something else, please say.


- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
        (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: Splitting the Spanish translation into es and es_LAT

Javier Llorente-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
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On 08/08/15 02:41, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-08-08 02:12, Javier Llorente wrote:
>> On 07/08/15 03:13, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Why don't you propose that in the Spanish translation mail
>>> list? You have first got to find out if there are enough people
>>> there to keep those two branches.
>
>> That's what I'm doing, proposing the change here.
>
> You have to propose it where the rest of the team is. In the
> Spanish translation mail list. I refuse to argue the subject here.
>

I think that it's feasible to split the Spanish translation into two
(or more) variants as long as there are people willing to maintain them.

Anyways, I have just sent a message to opensuse-translation-es.


Greetings,
- --
Javier Llorente
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