Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Lars Müller
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:58:47PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
[ 8< ]

>
> Maybe I did not make my point succinctly enough. The technical
> solution here is not the point ...
>
> Starting as a young dev engineer in TV broadcasting aeons ago, there
> was often the comment from the engineer to a colleague, about the
> video producers and sound techs, "I know how it works best, they get
> what I can design best". This is mostly the incompetent, but
> technically genial, engineer that whats to decide what is best for
> the user.
Please keep in mind: I don't have anythibng to do with the YaST
development.  I'm a community user like you're.

> Over the years with the right amount of maturity, this way
> of 'believing' is forced to change. Users just use something else
> ... simple. Pity. Sigh.

Superb!  What're you trying to achieve by this?  Do you think anyone's
blood preasure gets higher?

As written before: This issue is a non issue to me.  I'm able to work
with the YaST package manager front end as it is.

But it never was or is a question to convince me.  You have to win the
community.  And that happens at https://features.openSUSE.org/

So where is the feature request you filed?

If you all count this feature that important for openSUSE why don't you
go the way we have to go to convince the YaST developers?

"Sorry, I don't have the time." is what we have seen before in this
thread and what I expect as answer to this mail too.

I hope anyone else is able to see the circular type of the
argumentation.

At https://features.openSUSE.org people can vote.  Developers and users
can add their comments.

But you guys expect others are doing stuff you like to see happening.

Sorry, following this approach must fail.

Lars
--
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

LLLActive@GMX.Net
In reply to this post by Per Jessen-2
> C wrote:
>
>> >  I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in
>> >  some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user...
> +1.
exactly !!
>
> Wouldn't it be nice with an option on the first YaST window:
>
> Please indicate user experience level

Good indicator, the user decides what (s)he wants! The technical issue
besides the point for now; it is the attitude that is reflected. Mature
software presents a non-patronizing manner to the user by allowing
choices, and informing by good help functions about them. Having done
some technical writing and training material, it was noticed that such
efforts by users willing to help with such uninteresting things like
documentation and help systems are scared off by these same engineers
that know how it all works and loathe the ignorance of these 'common'
users. In stead of working together, this attitude destroys great
products like openSUSE in the long run. No wonder many drift back to the
brain dead M$ approach out of frustration about such infantile
attitudes. Pity. Sigh.

.oOOo.
Dreiel

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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Lars Müller
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 07:22:57PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:

> >C wrote:
> >
> >>>  I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in
> >>>  some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user...
> >+1.
> exactly !!
> >
> >Wouldn't it be nice with an option on the first YaST window:
> >
> >Please indicate user experience level
>
> Good indicator, the user decides what (s)he wants! The technical
> issue besides the point for now; it is the attitude that is
> reflected. Mature software presents a non-patronizing manner to the
> user by allowing choices, and informing by good help functions about
> them. Having done some technical writing and training material, it
> was noticed that such efforts by users willing to help with such
> uninteresting things like documentation and help systems are scared
> off by these same engineers that know how it all works and loathe
> the ignorance of these 'common' users. In stead of working together,
> this attitude destroys great products like openSUSE in the long run.
> No wonder many drift back to the brain dead M$ approach out of
> frustration about such infantile attitudes. Pity. Sigh.
Ok, what's the conclusion?

   Something is broken from the view of several of us.

What are we doing?

   Discuss it as long as possible till one finally gets annoyed to work
   on it?

This habit I would call an infantile attitude.  Try to step back a bit
and then consider where to spent your time on.

Please compare the issue discussed here to the noise generated on list
and the input given to address it at via https://features.openSUSE.org/

Till now none of you who puts this amount of energy into this thread had
been powerful, smart, or solution driven enough to file a feature
request.  Instead you expect others to drive something you like to get
changed.

It's even impossible to all of you to quote the URL to the former
discussions on this topic.  But this is valid information and are pieces
of the argumentation needed to convice and win others.

The issue is for some use cases easy to address.  See my earlier mail on
this as part of this thread.¹  At least it is very easy to fix if the
system gets installed by a user with some experience.

Has anyone of those complaining loudly about this issue checked and
enhanced the documentation available from http://en.openSUSE.org/ ?

If all of you believe the endusers point of view is getting lost feed
https://features.openSUSE.org/ with a new request.  Quote the feature ID
here and allow all of us to vote.

If your argumentation is brilliant, maybe even if it only is good then
you might even get my positive vote.

Thanks,

Lars

¹ http://lists.openSUSE.org/opensuse/2012-03/msg00747.html
--
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Per Jessen-2
Lars Müller wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 07:22:57PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
>> >C wrote:
>> >
>> >>>  I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that
>> >>>  in some of what we do here in the project we forget the end
>> >>>  user...
>> >+1.
>> exactly !!
>> >
>> >Wouldn't it be nice with an option on the first YaST window:
>> >
>> >Please indicate user experience level
>>
>> Good indicator, the user decides what (s)he wants! The technical
>> issue besides the point for now; it is the attitude that is
>> reflected. Mature software presents a non-patronizing manner to the
>> user by allowing choices, and informing by good help functions about
>> them. Having done some technical writing and training material, it
>> was noticed that such efforts by users willing to help with such
>> uninteresting things like documentation and help systems are scared
>> off by these same engineers that know how it all works and loathe
>> the ignorance of these 'common' users. In stead of working together,
>> this attitude destroys great products like openSUSE in the long run.
>> No wonder many drift back to the brain dead M$ approach out of
>> frustration about such infantile attitudes. Pity. Sigh.
>
> Ok, what's the conclusion?
>
>    Something is broken from the view of several of us.

There is room for improvement if we are keen to make openSUSE remain a
good choice for less experienced users.  I think that is a goal worth
pursuing, but because our a distinct lack of leadership we don't know
if openSUSE thinks so too.

> What are we doing?
>
>    Discuss it as long as possible till one finally gets annoyed to
>    work on it?
>
> This habit I would call an infantile attitude.  Try to step back a bit
> and then consider where to spent your time on.
>
> Please compare the issue discussed here to the noise generated on list
> and the input given to address it at via
> https://features.openSUSE.org/

Where all good intentions go to die.  Well, not all, but it certainly is
not a happening place.  If Basil had posted a new FATE instead of
starting this thread, chances are that nobody would have ever heard
about it.

> Till now none of you who puts this amount of energy into this thread
> had been powerful, smart, or solution driven enough to file a feature
> request.  Instead you expect others to drive something you like to get
> changed.

Lars, in case you were not aware, one does not need to be powerful,
smart or even "solution driven" to file anything at openFATE. One just
needs a slightly naive belief that it'll start something.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't expect anyone to do anything.
I'm just pointing out a weakness in openSUSE that I think ought to be
addressed. If I had the time and resources, I would do it myself.



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Per Jessen, Zürich (10.1°C)

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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Per Jessen-2
In reply to this post by Lars Müller
Lars Müller wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:58:47PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> [ 8< ]
>>
>> Maybe I did not make my point succinctly enough. The technical
>> solution here is not the point ...
>>
>> Starting as a young dev engineer in TV broadcasting aeons ago, there
>> was often the comment from the engineer to a colleague, about the
>> video producers and sound techs, "I know how it works best, they get
>> what I can design best". This is mostly the incompetent, but
>> technically genial, engineer that whats to decide what is best for
>> the user.
>
> Please keep in mind: I don't have anythibng to do with the YaST
> development.  I'm a community user like you're.

Except you hail from a "suse.de" address.



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Per Jessen, Zürich (9.3°C)

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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

LLLActive@GMX.Net
In reply to this post by Lars Müller
>
> As written before: This issue is a non issue to me.  I'm able to work
> with the YaST package manager front end as it is.
>
The technical issue is not the point. It is the way things are seen and
discussed. For you it may be a non-issue, others are allowed to differ -
or not? It is a common problem of most humans not to accommodate the
issues of others.

>
> So where is the feature request you filed?
>
> If you all count this feature that important for openSUSE why don't you
> go the way we have to go to convince the YaST developers?
>
> "Sorry, I don't have the time." is what we have seen before in this
> thread and what I expect as answer to this mail too.
>
> I hope anyone else is able to see the circular type of the
> argumentation.
Technically, yes ... between technical specialists on this list? User
input unwanted?
>
> Athttps://features.openSUSE.org  people can vote.  Developers and users
> can add their comments.
>
> But you guys expect others are doing stuff you like to see happening.
OK, our ideas and 'stuff' are unimportant; not all on the list are able
to develop - should we then go and come again when we can code? Where do
users go then, if not on a user list? This causes the death of great
projects like openSUSE, this attitude scares off users, the ultimate
object of the project. If the object is to just turn out excellent code,
the project is condemned to 'geekness'. How enlightening ...

>
> Sorry, following this approach must fail.
>
>
>
Yes, it is a pity that users are bracketed to another lists. Won't it be
more useful if we all can share ideas with the people creating
openSUSE?  We common users will try not to frustrate, but just adding to
a feature list is not exactly a discussion. Users do not always know how
to describe a feature/problem, and need patient engineers to guide them
along a conceptual problem solving path to define the ideas. Is this
list then only for developers? I thought it was a user list.

>> Maybe I did not make my point succinctly enough. The technical
>> solution here is not the point ...
>>
>> Starting as a young dev engineer in TV broadcasting aeons ago, there
>> was often the comment from the engineer to a colleague, about the
>> video producers and sound techs, "I know how it works best, they get
>> what I can design best". This is mostly the incompetent, but
>> technically genial, engineer that whats to decide what is best for
>> the user.
> Please keep in mind: I don't have anythibng to do with the YaST
> development. I'm a community user like you're.
>> Over the years with the right amount of maturity, this way
>> of 'believing' is forced to change. Users just use something else
>> ... simple. Pity. Sigh.
> Superb! What're you trying to achieve by this? Do you think anyone's
> blood preasure gets higher?

No, just appealing to some mature acceptance that users are one of our
main resources and should be the target for developing openSUSE. No one
is interested in the fighting of who is technically right and who is
wrong - openSUSE should become the most accepted and user liked product!
If that is not the main aim of all what is happening here, what is the
point? Users move on - they do not care about internal problems. If the
product is user shy, it will be dropped.

.oOOo.
Dreiel
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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Lars Müller
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:50:35PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> >
> >As written before: This issue is a non issue to me.  I'm able to work
> >with the YaST package manager front end as it is.
> >
> The technical issue is not the point. It is the way things are seen
> and discussed. For you it may be a non-issue, others are allowed to
> differ - or not?

What is driving you to this rhetorical question?

What you believe, what you think, what you do is all up to you.  I
expressed my view how I like to see all of us working together on the
openSUSE project.

Idenpendent of our skill level, the nation we're coming from, or gender,
or background, or everthying.

> It is a common problem of most humans not to
> accommodate the issues of others.

Let me ask back if you have tried this?

I do and believe to handle this to approximately ¾ quite well.  Some
days better and some days not this good.

> >So where is the feature request you filed?
> >
> >If you all count this feature that important for openSUSE why don't you
> >go the way we have to go to convince the YaST developers?
> >
> >"Sorry, I don't have the time." is what we have seen before in this
> >thread and what I expect as answer to this mail too.
> >
> >I hope anyone else is able to see the circular type of the
> >argumentation.
> Technically, yes ... between technical specialists on this list?
> User input unwanted?
features.openSUSE.org is for anyone in the community.  But that's what
I've written before.  Are you reading my replies?  And are you even try
to understand them and to follow the argumentation?

> >Athttps://features.openSUSE.org  people can vote.  Developers and users
> >can add their comments.
> >
> >But you guys expect others are doing stuff you like to see happening.
> OK, our ideas and 'stuff' are unimportant;

What is driving you to this conclusion?

https://features.openSUSE.org/ is there for any community member.

> not all on the list are
> able to develop - should we then go and come again when we can code?

Has anyone written that you or anyone else has to offer a diff, a patch,
an algorithm or anthing else technical?

Even a good desciption of an idea is enough.  This tool is to track and
evaluate suggestions and ideas.  The name could even be
public.brain.storm.openSUSE.org

See it as a +1 -1 collecting engine.  It's a tool which _might_ save all
of us extra work if we make use of it.

As some people make regular use of bugzilla, the tool to track bug
reports.  This is something which drives development.

> Where do users go then, if not on a user list? This causes the death
> of great projects like openSUSE, this attitude scares off users, the
> ultimate object of the project. If the object is to just turn out
> excellent code, the project is condemned to 'geekness'. How
> enlightening ...

No.  You read something into this and the mails earlier what has not
been written.  Not even in between the lines.

Which leads me to the question: Do you like the project to be like you
describe it or how it looks to you?

> >Sorry, following this approach must fail.
> >
> Yes, it is a pity that users are bracketed to another lists.

I never have sent anyone to a different list.  Even here you miss the
context or like to see it different.

If you like to get something done or moved you _also_ need to get
developers involved.  I expect the majority of developers are not on
this list.  Therfore we have to use the established interface to
communicate user needs.  This inteface is features.openSUSE.org or the
bug tracker.

> Won't
> it be more useful if we all can share ideas with the people creating
> openSUSE?

You can share ideas as much as you like.  And even if the main goal is
to produce hot air or to cause a long thread.

There might even be some outcome.

That's all up to you.

But it's even up to me to raise my voice and to try to focus the forces
to get at the end a better result for the openSUSE project.  And that's
at the end good to any of us.

But the big question might be: who creates openSUSE?

My view: the people doing the work on the numerous componets openSUSE is
compiled/ constructed from.

The feature tracking tool is one mechanism to focus and filter
communication.  As bugzilla is.  Much advanced compared to a plain
mailing list.

That's the reason why I stressed to use the available tools.  Tools made
from the Open Source community to be used by the Open Source community
to enhance the Open Source community.

As openSUSE is part of this community you and I are also part of it and
are invited to make use of these tools.

Nothing more or less did I intend to express.

Make use of the available tools to enhance openSUSE, please.

> We common users will try not to frustrate, but just
> adding to a feature list is not exactly a discussion. Users do not
> always know how to describe a feature/problem, and need patient
> engineers to guide them along a conceptual problem solving path to
> define the ideas. Is this list then only for developers? I thought
> it was a user list.

Read http://lists.openSUSE.org/ there is a summary what this list is
intended for.

  Generic questions and User to User support for the openSUSE
  distribution

For the remaining see the arguments above and in earlier mails as part
of this thread.

[ 8< ]
> No, just appealing to some mature acceptance that users are one of
> our main resources and should be the target for developing openSUSE.
> No one is interested in the fighting of who is technically right and
> who is wrong - openSUSE should become the most accepted and user
> liked product! If that is not the main aim of all what is happening
> here, what is the point? Users move on - they do not care about
> internal problems. If the product is user shy, it will be dropped.

cat /etc/motd and see what I guess is the main goal of the project.

If we create at the end a fabulous operating system I'm more than happy
too.

Users are needed.  But any 'only' user also has to be aware that
developers also have needs.  The big question is how to balance the
needs.

As the result of this discussion I'm more and more able to understand
why developers stay away from this list.  Its very, very time consuming.

On the other side it's frustrating to argue and argue again and again
and to see no progress at all.

Instead of driving this simple, non complex technical issue - keep in
mind we started at the point to change the YaST on exit default action
which is already configurable! - into a direction to address it, more
and more text without any new aspects got created.

Unproductive, time consuming, lame, no fun.  Good arguments to stay away
from this list.


On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:48:37PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
> Lars Müller wrote:
[ 8< ]
> > Till now none of you who puts this amount of energy into this thread
> > had been powerful, smart, or solution driven enough to file a feature
> > request.  Instead you expect others to drive something you like to get
> > changed.
>
> Lars, in case you were not aware, one does not need to be powerful,
> smart or even "solution driven" to file anything at openFATE. One just
> needs a slightly naive belief that it'll start something.

But openFATE offers a mechanism to vote.  Ok, all of you don't make use
of it?  Then I believe it's time to file a request to drop this tool.

From a filed request I believe it's possible to guess if the initiating
person has an understanding or not about what got requested.
 

On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:49:23PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

> Lars Müller wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:58:47PM +0100, [hidden email] wrote:
> > [ 8< ]
> >>
> >> Maybe I did not make my point succinctly enough. The technical
> >> solution here is not the point ...
> >>
> >> Starting as a young dev engineer in TV broadcasting aeons ago, there
> >> was often the comment from the engineer to a colleague, about the
> >> video producers and sound techs, "I know how it works best, they get
> >> what I can design best". This is mostly the incompetent, but
> >> technically genial, engineer that whats to decide what is best for
> >> the user.
> >
> > Please keep in mind: I don't have anythibng to do with the YaST
> > development.  I'm a community user like you're.
>
> Except you hail from a "suse.de" address.
And I said this before the domain part of my address doesn't make any
difference.  I have to argue the same way as anyone else.  Believe it or
not.

Thanks,

Lars
--
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Lars Müller
Lars Müller composed:

> As written before: This issue is a non issue to me.

Your prolific writing in this thread belies this statement, nearly one
lengthy post for each of the past 7 hours.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Lars Müller
On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:51:07PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> Lars Müller composed:
>
> >As written before: This issue is a non issue to me.
>
> Your prolific writing in this thread belies this statement, nearly
> one lengthy post for each of the past 7 hours.

There is a difference between the technical issue which is more or less
non existing to me.  See one of my initial relpies.  I'm able to
configure how the YaST software mangement tools behaves on exit.

But there is some issue regarding how users think to communicate with
developers.  And from the arguments presented I count this a big and
important issue.

You're using bugzilla and are driving issues forward there.

Is that tool ok, is it brilliant, or is at at the other end of scale of
tools you had or have to use?

If you used http://features.openSUSE.org/ I'd like to ask you the same
questions as raised for bugzilla.

We need to know how high the pain level is to use the existing tools.

If they're non acceptable or not considered to help we have to evaluate
if and which tools support our project goals better.

Cheers,

Lars
--
Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

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Re: communication with developers (was: Software Mana...)

Felix Miata-3
On 2012/03/16 00:06 (GMT+0100) Lars Müller composed:

> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 06:51:07PM -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

>>  Lars Müller composed:

>>  >As written before: This issue is a non issue to me.

>>  Your prolific writing in this thread belies this statement, nearly
>>  one lengthy post for each of the past 7 hours.

> There is a difference between the technical issue which is more or less
> non existing to me.  See one of my initial relpies.  I'm able to
> configure how the YaST software mangement tools behaves on exit.

> But there is some issue regarding how users think to communicate with
> developers.  And from the arguments presented I count this a big and
> important issue.

Then it should have been split off the original subject with a relevant subject.

> You're using bugzilla and are driving issues forward there.

> Is that tool ok, is it brilliant, or is at at the other end of scale of
> tools you had or have to use?

Typically on other distros I've been exposed to they have bug trackers that
are also enhancement trackers. I much prefer those systems. Often the
distinction between enhancement and bug or feature are blurry or
non-existent. It's much easier to mark enhancement or not than to shift into
an entirely different system, and suffer through incessant discussions about
how to/where to/why to not use the bug tracker, and why the feature system is
marginally useful.

> If you used http://features.openSUSE.org/ I'd like to ask you the same
> questions as raised for bugzilla.

I've used it little, for the reasons above and put forth by others.

> We need to know how high the pain level is to use the existing tools.

> If they're non acceptable or not considered to help we have to evaluate
> if and which tools support our project goals better.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: communication with developers

Basil Chupin-2
On 16/03/12 10:19, Felix Miata wrote:

[pruned]

> Typically on other distros I've been exposed to they have bug trackers
> that are also enhancement trackers. I much prefer those systems. Often
> the distinction between enhancement and bug or feature are blurry or
> non-existent. It's much easier to mark enhancement or not than to
> shift into an entirely different system, and suffer through incessant
> discussions about how to/where to/why to not use the bug tracker, and
> why the feature system is marginally useful.

[pruned]

If you are referring to Launchpad, used in K/Ubuntu, then I totally
agree. A most useful source of information for those users.

BC

--
The vulgar crowd always is taken by appearances, and the world consists chiefly of the vulgar.
                    Niccolo Machiavelli

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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Anthony Irven Scott
In reply to this post by Clayton-29
C wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 15:34, Lars Müller<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>> Apparently you haven't had to field calls from confused beginner users
>>> who are wondering what they did wrong after installing an application.
>> Beginning users I'm not allowing to call YaST at all.  They even don't
>> know that the user with the most power is named root.
> So, you support them every single time they want to update? and add an
> application?  Can I give my "users" your phone number?  I field
> support for users in Australia, Canada, USA, Germany, Netherlands,
> Sweden and and and.. (I've got friends scattered all over the place)
>
> They don't know they have root for the most part.. they know that if
> they want to add an application, they use their user password.
>
>
>> Well, if they're root on their box, then it's quite eady to change the
>> default.  It's possible from the GUI which you call obscure.  Well, your
>> point of view.
> You (as in experienced users, not you specifically) are used to and
> comfortable with the YaST tools for editing system configurations...
> they are not.. to say "just go change the option" is silly... you
> don't tell a user to go tweak their Windows Registry any more than you
> tell these same users to go twiddle the oepnSUSE system
> configurations.  That's a "stay away from there or you might break it"
> place.
>
>
>>> This one issue I see over and over... "why did my software installer
>>> disappear?" or... "why do I always have to restart the software
>>> installer?"
>> If that's the case feel free to feed https://features.openSUSE.org/  If
>> non has done this in the past.  As I don't care you'll neither get a
>> plus or minus from me.
>>
>> Best is you branch YaST, change the default and start to smack the YaST
>> devs around.  I expect they'll love you. :)
> I'm not going to branch YaST... like you.. limited time.
>
> This was discusses ad-nasueum when the change was made.  The reasons
> for making the change make sense for experienced users and don't make
> sense for in-experienced users.... but that fact was railroaded over
> during the discussion.
>
> One thing that was requested back during the horse flogging was that
> there be an option added to the software manager... nothing ever came
> of it because people are understandably busy.  So in the end, the
> default was changed to what makes sense for experienced users.... and
> the rest of use are left standing there trying to explain to Joe and
> Jane User how to navigate the scary sysconfig applet in YaST.
>
> I'm not asking for a change now.. just trying to point out that in
> some of what we do here in the project we forget the end user... this
> is one prime example.  We made a change to a default that may not have
> been the best one - depending on who your user is... an experienced
> developer and long time Linux user, or someone who is making their
> first steps into Linux... or doesn't know enough to be confident
> enough to poke the dragon lurking under the surface of their KDE or
> Gnome (or LXDE ect etc) desktop
>
> C.
+1
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Re: Software Manager (YaST2) - a question about its behaviour

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Lars Müller
Lars Müller wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:48:37PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
>> Lars Müller wrote:
> [ 8< ]
>> > Till now none of you who puts this amount of energy into this
>> > thread had been powerful, smart, or solution driven enough to file
>> > a feature request.  Instead you expect others to drive something
>> > you like to get changed.
>>
>> Lars, in case you were not aware, one does not need to be powerful,
>> smart or even "solution driven" to file anything at openFATE. One
>> just needs a slightly naive belief that it'll start something.
>
> But openFATE offers a mechanism to vote.  Ok, all of you don't make
> use of it?  Then I believe it's time to file a request to drop this
> tool.

The problem is - you can vote any way you want, votes are no good if 1)
they are not representative of the community and 2) there are no
developer resources interested in doing the job.  

A separate topic, but if we want to gauge the usability of openFATE, we
could look at some percentages:

a) percent of requests filed (in the last 12 months) that have received
more than X votes.
b) percent of requests filed (in the last 12 months) that have been
succesfully implemented.

> On Thu, Mar 15, 2012 at 08:49:23PM +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
>> Lars Müller wrote:
>>
>> > Please keep in mind: I don't have anythibng to do with the YaST
>> > development.  I'm a community user like you're.
>>
>> Except you hail from a "suse.de" address.
>
> And I said this before the domain part of my address doesn't make any
> difference.  I have to argue the same way as anyone else.  Believe it
> or not.

Maybe so, but you're sending the wrong signal.


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Re: Solve one issue at the time - Software Manager (YaST2)

Rajko M.
On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:32:55 +0100
Per Jessen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > And I said this before the domain part of my address doesn't make
> > any difference.  I have to argue the same way as anyone else.
> >  Believe it or not.  
>
> Maybe so, but you're sending the wrong signal.

Per please, what signal?

Lars is one of few people with the suse.de address that reads this list
and is trying to channel energy people spend in endless discussions in a
places that promise some result. Current topic of his efforts is
openSUSE feature request and management system, on example of
requested feature for YaST Software Manager.  


Everybody, except Lars:

Operating openFATE web interface is quite easy for users that want to
add comment and vote. It is as easy as Forums software. It is the
other pair of shoes for people adding details in feature description,
but well, those should be a bit more technically inclined anyway.  

BTW, what I find interesting is that no one discussing this particular
feature did not take fraction of time spent filling mail list with
posts to check http://features.opensuse.org for feature requested here,
and, surprise, we already have two requests, one direct and one
related.  

Make Yast2 stay open after installing packages
https://features.opensuse.org/312750
This is discussing change in default.

YaST2-software manager : Add "Action after Installation" option
https://features.opensuse.org/309296
This one is looking for other options for the same issue.

If you want feature implemented go there and vote, then blog, use
Facebook, Google+, Forums, IRC to find more people interested in either
of features. Of course avoid to repeat practice seen to discuss how
poor user souls have no tools to request features and then point to
https://features.opensuse.org/312750 , your readers will laugh at you.

Also, focus on this issue, make it solved and then we can go to
another.


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Re: Launchpad and communication with developers

Rajko M.
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:00:03 +1100
Basil Chupin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If you are referring to Launchpad, used in K/Ubuntu, then I totally
> agree. A most useful source of information for those users.

To all:

It would be nice, in order to address Lars question in a rounded
discusson, to open new thread, possibly on [hidden email]
mail list. It is a good place to discuss project related issues (and
infrastructure is one). We can compare Launchpad vs. comparable services
that provides openSUSE.

Probably it would be even better to make use of openSUSE Wiki at
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Infrastructure_improvements (it is
empty now), list features of Launchpad and compare them to our
infrastructure. Let people fix article and after some time, say 7
days, close that and open discussion on a project mail list. In a few
rounds of described process we should have clear idea what has to be
improved and in which order, fill http://features.opensuse.org with
descriptions and then go and look for developers that can do that.
They can be SUSE employees, but also just about anybody looking for
something to do, like students participating in GSoC.

http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/opensuse 
is good place to add tasks that can be done by one student participant
in a allotted time. In other words those that look for developers, at
GSoC will be plethora of candidates, all young, restless and qualified.

For those complaining about sending to another mail list, I must
remind present that [hidden email] is generic list where
discussion can be started if user has no idea where it belongs, but
then it should be moved if there is a better place.

Also, don't forget to reference here mail list archive URL of opening article
in another mail list and there for instance this thread, that was moved,
so that people can actually follow discussion. This little convenience
is your contribution to better communication, without single developer
hour needed, so without excuse why is not implemented.

PS.
There can be proposed improvements to mail list traffic and
corresponding archives, but I'll give other readers time to discover
what are the problems and propose improvements.

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Re: Launchpad and communication with developers

Basil Chupin-2
On 17/03/12 16:30, Rajko M. wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:00:03 +1100
> Basil Chupin<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> If you are referring to Launchpad, used in K/Ubuntu, then I totally
>> agree. A most useful source of information for those users.
> To all:
>
> It would be nice, in order to address Lars question in a rounded
> discusson, to open new thread, possibly [hidden email]
> mail list. It is a good place to discuss project related issues (and
> infrastructure is one). We can compare Launchpad vs. comparable services
> that provides openSUSE.
>
> Probably it would be even better to make use of openSUSE Wiki at
> http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Infrastructure_improvements  (it is
> empty now), list features of Launchpad and compare them to our
> infrastructure. Let people fix article and after some time, say 7
> days, close that and open discussion on a project mail list. In a few
> rounds of described process we should have clear idea what has to be
> improved and in which order, fillhttp://features.opensuse.org  with
> descriptions and then go and look for developers that can do that.
> They can be SUSE employees, but also just about anybody looking for
> something to do, like students participating in GSoC.
>
> http://www.google-melange.com/gsoc/org/google/gsoc2012/opensuse
> is good place to add tasks that can be done by one student participant
> in a allotted time. In other words those that look for developers, at
> GSoC will be plethora of candidates, all young, restless and qualified.
>
> For those complaining about sending to another mail list, I must
> remind present [hidden email]  is generic list where
> discussion can be started if user has no idea where it belongs, but
> then it should be moved if there is a better place.
>
> Also, don't forget to reference here mail list archive URL of opening article
> in another mail list and there for instance this thread, that was moved,
> so that people can actually follow discussion. This little convenience
> is your contribution to better communication, without single developer
> hour needed, so without excuse why is not implemented.
>
> PS.
> There can be proposed improvements to mail list traffic and
> corresponding archives, but I'll give other readers time to discover
> what are the problems and propose improvements.


Rajko, old boy, you have done 2 "naughty" things here:

the first is that you altered the Subject heading of this thread without
even quoting any part of the original thread name; and

second is that you should have or could have created a new thread :-) .

What you wrote deserves a new thread Subject so that what you have in
mind does not get lost in the thread which I started :-) .

BC

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The vulgar crowd always is taken by appearances, and the world consists chiefly of the vulgar.
                    Niccolo Machiavelli

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Re: Launchpad and communication with developers

Rajko M.
On Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:51:47 +1100
Basil Chupin <[hidden email]> wrote:

...
> the first is that you altered the Subject heading of this thread
> without even quoting any part of the original thread name; and

It was just adjustement to real topic of the article, and as you can
see the second part is previous article subject, so it would be a bit
redundant:
"Launchpad and communication with developers (was:communication with
developers)"

> second is that you should have or could have created a new
> thread :-) .

I can't be everywhere, so some kind soul should take honors :)

> What you wrote deserves a new thread Subject so that what you have in
> mind does not get lost in the thread which I started :-) .

Which one "communication with developers", or "Software Manager (YaST2)
- a question about its behaviour" where later had more then a few hidden
topics under never changed original, which is very confusing practice.

In short, not all rules are equally applicable, some are more equal
then the other :)  (if you recall "1984")

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Re: Solve one issue at the time - Software Manager (YaST2)

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Rajko M.
Rajko M. wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:32:55 +0100
> Per Jessen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> > And I said this before the domain part of my address doesn't make
>> > any difference.  I have to argue the same way as anyone else.
>> > Believe it or not.
>>
>> Maybe so, but you're sending the wrong signal.
>
> Per please, what signal?

Rajko, if you can't see it, let's forget it.



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