SLE translation team in Weblate

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SLE translation team in Weblate

Stanislav Brabec
Dear translators.

As you may know, SUSE is now working on SLE12 SP2. As part of this
effort, contracted translators and reviewers will work on translation of
16 languages of selected projects.

As we plan to completely migrate to Weblate, we selected three projects
as a pilot for this migration. These projects also represent two working
models:

libzypp, zypper: These projects now have only one branch that will be
deployed simultaneously on both Factory/Tumbleweed and SLE12 SP2.

yast-slide-show: This project has a separate branch for SLE12 SP2 and
master (Factory/Tumbleweed).

Last month we started phase 1: Merge of SLE translations into openSUSE
translations using SLE Merge Robot making suggestions. (Some of them
seen hundreds of mails. I apologize for that. Weblate sent one mail per
change.)

Now phase 2 will start: Contracted translators will start to work on
these translations, make them complete and reviewed.

As part of this work, these three project will be locked for community
translators. Community still could look into the progress and make
suggestions and comments.

Once SLE12 SP2 will be released, these projects will be open for
community translation again.

When this work will end, both SLE and openSUSE will use the same
translation, and the work of contracted translators will be
(automatically) inherited in the Tumbleweed project.

Note: In case of yast-slide-show, both branches will be locked. Weblate
does not yet support branch disconnection and locking only one branch,
so we need to lock both at once. In future, it will be possible to lock
only particular branch. The another branch will be open for community,
and inherit work from SLE branch.

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Stanislav Brabec
software developer
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

David Medina


> As you may know, SUSE is now working on SLE12 SP2. As part of this 
> effort, contracted translators and reviewers will work on translation
> of
> 16 languages of selected projects.

Hello, 

Is it possible to know which are these 16 languages?

Thanks,
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti-2
In reply to this post by Stanislav Brabec
2016-06-16 13:00 GMT-03:00 Stanislav Brabec <[hidden email]>:

> Dear translators.
>
> As you may know, SUSE is now working on SLE12 SP2. As part of this effort,
> contracted translators and reviewers will work on translation of
> 16 languages of selected projects.
>
> As we plan to completely migrate to Weblate, we selected three projects as a
> pilot for this migration. These projects also represent two working
> models:
>
> libzypp, zypper: These projects now have only one branch that will be
> deployed simultaneously on both Factory/Tumbleweed and SLE12 SP2.
>
> yast-slide-show: This project has a separate branch for SLE12 SP2 and master
> (Factory/Tumbleweed).
>
> Last month we started phase 1: Merge of SLE translations into openSUSE
> translations using SLE Merge Robot making suggestions. (Some of them seen
> hundreds of mails. I apologize for that. Weblate sent one mail per change.)
>
> Now phase 2 will start: Contracted translators will start to work on these
> translations, make them complete and reviewed.
>

Hi,

For libzypp and zypper, using pt_BR as an example, contracted
translators and comunity ones uses different terms for translations,
probably this means that in this phase, they will erase all our
comunity translations and re-apply the SLE Merge Robot which now are
just suggestions to make the zypper translation on next SLE like it
always was in SLE.

I saw this as a problem. Why? Right now zypper is 96,3% translated for
pt_BR. Will the contractors start with that or with the last version
they worked? (With that they will complain that the translation
doesn't comply with their standards.

After they do their work and when zypper is available to translate
again we, the comunity translators, will have to revert all the
changes contracted translators made or, at least, review all work done
and update the terms we use different. Next round of translations,
same problems...

Regards,

Luiz
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Ludwig Nussel
Luiz Fernando Ranghetti schrieb:
> [...]
> After they do their work and when zypper is available to translate
> again we, the comunity translators, will have to revert all the
> changes contracted translators made or, at least, review all work done
> and update the terms we use different. Next round of translations,
> same problems...

libzypp and zypper now use a model like most other upstream projects
like let's say util-linux. Ie the translations are inline with the
sources. So there is no way to have different translations between
SLE and openSUSE anymore. If the paid translator for your language
uses terms that you feel are inconsistent with the rest of the
system please discuss that with the translator and your language
community. The suggestion feature of Weblate hopefully helps there a
bit. The people on this list can try to moderate but cannot judge
what is correct in your language. The purpose of the paid
translators certainly is not to override good translations and ship
silly ones to customers.

cu
Ludwig

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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Yasuhiko Kamata
On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:32:20 +0200
Ludwig Nussel <[hidden email]> wrote:

> libzypp and zypper now use a model like most other upstream projects
> like let's say util-linux. Ie the translations are inline with the
> sources. So there is no way to have different translations between
> SLE and openSUSE anymore. If the paid translator for your language
> uses terms that you feel are inconsistent with the rest of the
> system please discuss that with the translator and your language
> community. The suggestion feature of Weblate hopefully helps there a
> bit. The people on this list can try to moderate but cannot judge
> what is correct in your language. The purpose of the paid
> translators certainly is not to override good translations and ship
> silly ones to customers.

Ja_jp is also like that (use different terms for translation).

Because they (paid translator) have responsibility for their customer
(should have consistent translations between the previous SLE version,
for example), I'm worrying that suggestions are refused or simply
ignored and all of translations are overwritten with SLE's version.

Thanks,

--
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E-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Carlos E. R.-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 2016-06-17 14:11, Yasuhiko Kamata wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:32:20 +0200 Ludwig Nussel <> wrote:

...

> Ja_jp is also like that (use different terms for translation).
>
> Because they (paid translator) have responsibility for their
> customer (should have consistent translations between the previous
> SLE version, for example), I'm worrying that suggestions are
> refused or simply ignored and all of translations are overwritten
> with SLE's version.

I have the same feeling regarding the Spanish translation. When we
started we inherited some translations done by paid translators. It
was not possible to contact them, there was not a list of vocabulary
that we could access, nor a guide of uses. We had to start fresh, and
thus we had to review and redo all that they had done, discussing all
in our mail list. For instance, we took very much under consideration
that we had to translate for Spain and for South America, which use
different expressions. For example, I can think of a common use verb
in Spain that is an insult to use in some other countries.

Basically the paid translators act like closed source. There is no
contact with them, no influence, no sharing.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Ancor Gonzalez Sosa
On 06/17/2016 02:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2016-06-17 14:11, Yasuhiko Kamata wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:32:20 +0200 Ludwig Nussel <> wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> Ja_jp is also like that (use different terms for translation).
>
>> Because they (paid translator) have responsibility for their
>> customer (should have consistent translations between the previous
>> SLE version, for example), I'm worrying that suggestions are
>> refused or simply ignored and all of translations are overwritten
>> with SLE's version.
>
> I have the same feeling regarding the Spanish translation. When we
> started we inherited some translations done by paid translators. It
> was not possible to contact them, there was not a list of vocabulary
> that we could access, nor a guide of uses. We had to start fresh, and
> thus we had to review and redo all that they had done, discussing all
> in our mail list. For instance, we took very much under consideration
> that we had to translate for Spain and for South America, which use
> different expressions. For example, I can think of a common use verb
> in Spain that is an insult to use in some other countries.
>
> Basically the paid translators act like closed source. There is no
> contact with them, no influence, no sharing.

That was years ago. Let's hope Leap becomes a opportunity to establish a
better collaboration. Everybody deserves a second chance.

Cheers.
--
Ancor González Sosa
YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti-2
2016-06-17 10:31 GMT-03:00 Ancor Gonzalez Sosa <[hidden email]>:

> On 06/17/2016 02:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> On 2016-06-17 14:11, Yasuhiko Kamata wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Jun 2016 10:32:20 +0200 Ludwig Nussel <> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> Ja_jp is also like that (use different terms for translation).
>>
>>> Because they (paid translator) have responsibility for their
>>> customer (should have consistent translations between the previous
>>> SLE version, for example), I'm worrying that suggestions are
>>> refused or simply ignored and all of translations are overwritten
>>> with SLE's version.
>>
>> I have the same feeling regarding the Spanish translation. When we
>> started we inherited some translations done by paid translators. It
>> was not possible to contact them, there was not a list of vocabulary
>> that we could access, nor a guide of uses. We had to start fresh, and
>> thus we had to review and redo all that they had done, discussing all
>> in our mail list. For instance, we took very much under consideration
>> that we had to translate for Spain and for South America, which use
>> different expressions. For example, I can think of a common use verb
>> in Spain that is an insult to use in some other countries.
>>
>> Basically the paid translators act like closed source. There is no
>> contact with them, no influence, no sharing.
>
> That was years ago. Let's hope Leap becomes a opportunity to establish a
> better collaboration. Everybody deserves a second chance.
>
> Cheers.
> --
> Ancor González Sosa
> YaST Team at SUSE Linux GmbH
> --

Hi,

Good to hear that, how can we get in touch with them? Better if we
talk before they start their job.

Regards,

Luiz
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Stanislav Brabec
In reply to this post by David Medina
RbnDavid wrote:
> Is it possible to know which are these 16 languages?

ar Arabic
pt_BR Brazilian Portuguese
zh_CN Chinese Simplified
zh_TW Chinese Traditional
cs Czech
nl Dutch
fr French
de German
hu Hungarian
it Italian
ja Japanese
ko Korean
pl Polish
ru Russian
es Spanish
sv Swedish

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Stanislav Brabec
software developer
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Stanislav Brabec
In reply to this post by Stanislav Brabec
Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote:

> For libzypp and zypper, using pt_BR as an example, contracted
> translators and comunity ones uses different terms for translations,

And this is something that sounds very wrong. One system, identical
software, two different translations.

> probably this means that in this phase, they will erase all our comunity
> translations and re-apply the SLE Merge Robot which now are just
> suggestions to make the zypper translation on next SLE like it always
> was in SLE.

No. The openSUSE translation was took as a default one. SLE Merge Robot
changes were sent only as unapproved suggestions.

Anybody from the community still can go through the suggestions, and
solve them:
https://l10n.opensuse.org/translate/zypper/master/pt_BR/?type=suggestions
https://l10n.opensuse.org/translate/libzypp/master/pt_BR/?type=suggestions

If it will not be done by community, contracted translators will be paid
to make it 100% translated (and with with no pending suggestions).

They should not change terminology, only make a linguistic review of the
translated part.

I believe that they will work carefully and check suggestions one by
one. However I am not a native speaker of these languages, so I have to
trust that the best available translation will be used.

> I saw this as a problem. Why? Right now zypper is 96,3% translated for
> pt_BR. Will the contractors start with that or with the last version
> they worked? (With that they will complain that the translation doesn't
> comply with their standards.

No, this time (SLE12 SP2 for these three projects, SLE13 for all
projects) they will start on top of the last openSUSE version.

> After they do their work and when zypper is available to translate again
> we, the comunity translators, will have to revert all the changes
> contracted translators made or, at least, review all work done and
> update the terms we use different. Next round of translations, same
> problems...

Translators should use community translations, as the rest of the system
uses it as well. If you find a problem, you can make suggestion or
comment during the translation process.

I hope that the word fight will not appear.

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Stanislav Brabec
software developer
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti-2
2016-06-17 11:06 GMT-03:00 Stanislav Brabec <[hidden email]>:

> Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote:
>
>> For libzypp and zypper, using pt_BR as an example, contracted
>> translators and comunity ones uses different terms for translations,
>
>
> And this is something that sounds very wrong. One system, identical
> software, two different translations.
>
>> probably this means that in this phase, they will erase all our comunity
>> translations and re-apply the SLE Merge Robot which now are just
>> suggestions to make the zypper translation on next SLE like it always
>> was in SLE.
>
>
> No. The openSUSE translation was took as a default one. SLE Merge Robot
> changes were sent only as unapproved suggestions.
>
> Anybody from the community still can go through the suggestions, and solve
> them:
> https://l10n.opensuse.org/translate/zypper/master/pt_BR/?type=suggestions
> https://l10n.opensuse.org/translate/libzypp/master/pt_BR/?type=suggestions
>
> If it will not be done by community, contracted translators will be paid to
> make it 100% translated (and with with no pending suggestions).
>

Hi,

Which is our deadline?

Regards

Luiz
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Stanislav Brabec
Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote:

>> Anybody from the community still can go through the suggestions, and solve
>> them:
>> https://l10n.opensuse.org/translate/zypper/master/pt_BR/?type=suggestions
>> https://l10n.opensuse.org/translate/libzypp/master/pt_BR/?type=suggestions
>>
>> If it will not be done by community, contracted translators will be paid to
>> make it 100% translated (and with with no pending suggestions).
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> Which is our deadline?
>
Contracted translators should start to translate this week.

--
Best Regards / S pozdravem,

Stanislav Brabec
software developer
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RE: SLE translation team in Weblate

Padraig Dillon
Hi Luiz/All,

I just wanted to take the opportunity to allay some of the concerns and give some more information.  As Stanislav highlighted we will be starting to engage our translators for these 3 packages by Friday of this week, though we can push this to next Monday if needed.  Our plan is to translate any currently untranslated strings, fix any fuzzy strings or strings with QA issues.  We also plan to review the suggestion strings. The instructions to the translators for suggestions is to only make a change if there's a real improvement to the translation by making the change. If the existing openSUSE string is a good translation, then it won't be changed.  

In addition, we also have Linguistic Consultants. These review the work of the translators to ensure quality levels are maintained. They will review a sample of the strings for quality control. The feedback on these will be sent back to the translators who can them implement the required improvements.

I saw one message regarding terminology. We have a terminology database that our translators do have access to. This can be found here: www.novellglossaries.com. This is available for you to access with the following credentials:
Username: guest
Password: guest

Our goal here is to help supplement the translations you have already submitted. We feel this is an opportunity to work together to improve the quality levels throughout the products. This Weblate pilot will  help us to adjust to the new tool, while also building a workflow so we can all contribute in a constructive way. There will likely be teething issues as we go through the pilot but I think this is an opportunity to work together in a way that hasn't happened before.

Thanks,
Padraig.

Padraig Dillon PMP
Localization Account Project Manager
Office +353 1 605 8078  | [hidden email]




-----Original Message-----
From: Stanislav Brabec [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 21 June 2016 08:12
To: Luiz Fernando Ranghetti <[hidden email]>
Cc: OS-trans <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] SLE translation team in Weblate

Luiz Fernando Ranghetti wrote:

>> Anybody from the community still can go through the suggestions, and
>> solve
>> them:
>> https://l10n.opensuse.org/translate/zypper/master/pt_BR/?type=suggest
>> ions
>> https://l10n.opensuse.org/translate/libzypp/master/pt_BR/?type=sugges
>> tions
>>
>> If it will not be done by community, contracted translators will be
>> paid to make it 100% translated (and with with no pending suggestions).
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> Which is our deadline?
>
Contracted translators should start to translate this week.

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Stanislav Brabec
software developer
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Vojtěch Zeisek-2
Hello

Dne úterý 21. června 2016 8:49:14 CEST, Padraig Dillon napsal(a):
> I saw one message regarding terminology. We have a terminology database that
> our translators do have access to. This can be found here:
> www.novellglossaries.com. This is available for you to access with the
> following credentials:
> Username: guest
> Password: guest

I had a quick look at the Czech language and only about 25 % of the strings
were translated and among them, some were wrong, misleading or inconsistent
with the rest of the Czech Linux world or even with the usage of the term in
Leap. Not tragic situation, but there are some weird terms. Such index is of
course very helpful, but we need some way to improve it...
Sincerely,
Vojtěch

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Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux

https://www.opensuse.org/
https://trapa.cz/

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RE: SLE translation team in Weblate

Padraig Dillon
Hi Vojtěch,

Thanks for the initial feedback. I should have clarified, that we use this database to capture terms for non Linux product localisation also. We use it for SUSE product lines along with other Micro Focus product lines.

Thanks,
Padraig

-----Original Message-----
From: Vojtěch Zeisek [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 21 June 2016 10:36
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] SLE translation team in Weblate

Hello

Dne úterý 21. června 2016 8:49:14 CEST, Padraig Dillon napsal(a):
> I saw one message regarding terminology. We have a terminology
> database that our translators do have access to. This can be found here:
> www.novellglossaries.com. This is available for you to access with the
> following credentials:
> Username: guest
> Password: guest

I had a quick look at the Czech language and only about 25 % of the strings were translated and among them, some were wrong, misleading or inconsistent with the rest of the Czech Linux world or even with the usage of the term in Leap. Not tragic situation, but there are some weird terms. Such index is of course very helpful, but we need some way to improve it...
Sincerely,
Vojtěch

--
Vojtěch Zeisek

Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux

https://www.opensuse.org/
https://trapa.cz/
N�����r��y隊Z)z{.��kj{%jب�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.��kj{%jب��0�����Ǩ�
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2016-06-21 11:53, Padraig Dillon wrote:
> Hi Vojtěch,
>
> Thanks for the initial feedback. I should have clarified, that we use this database to capture terms for non Linux product localisation also. We use it for SUSE product lines along with other Micro Focus product lines.

I'll point out just one pair of terms that were much discussed by the
Spanish team: file vs archive. In English they have different meanings.
In Spanish they are typically equivalent. We, after long discussions,
reached an agreement on how to differentiate both. I don't see that
differentiation in that vocabulary, so that the new translation may
break our past agreement.

I could point to our own glossary, but it has been taken offline.

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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)


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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Vojtěch Zeisek-2
In reply to this post by Padraig Dillon
Dne úterý 21. června 2016 9:53:47 CEST, Padraig Dillon napsal(a):
> Thanks for the initial feedback. I should have clarified, that we use this
> database to capture terms for non Linux product localisation also. We use
> it for SUSE product lines along with other Micro Focus product lines.

Ah, OK, I see. Then this issue can be much more complicated... At least in
Czech, let's say Linux and Windows worlds use bit different wording...

> Thanks,
> Padraig

Thank You,
V.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vojtěch Zeisek [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 21 June 2016 10:36
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] SLE translation team in Weblate
>
> Dne úterý 21. června 2016 8:49:14 CEST, Padraig Dillon napsal(a):
> > I saw one message regarding terminology. We have a terminology
> > database that our translators do have access to. This can be found here:
> > www.novellglossaries.com. This is available for you to access with the
> > following credentials:
> > Username: guest
> > Password: guest
>
> I had a quick look at the Czech language and only about 25 % of the strings
> were translated and among them, some were wrong, misleading or inconsistent
> with the rest of the Czech Linux world or even with the usage of the term
> in Leap. Not tragic situation, but there are some weird terms. Such index
> is of course very helpful, but we need some way to improve it...
> Sincerely,
> Vojtěch
--
Vojtěch Zeisek

Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux

https://www.opensuse.org/
https://trapa.cz/

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RE: SLE translation team in Weblate

Marlyse Eyike
Hello Vojtěch

If I may clarify, it may not necessarily be more more complicated, as the distinction is made in the database between Linux terms (via the use of the product name "SUSE Linux") and non-Linux terms (using all other Micro Focus product names).

HTH
Thanks & regards,
Marlyse

-----Original Message-----
From: Vojtěch Zeisek [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 1:39 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] SLE translation team in Weblate

Dne úterý 21. června 2016 9:53:47 CEST, Padraig Dillon napsal(a):
> Thanks for the initial feedback. I should have clarified, that we use
> this database to capture terms for non Linux product localisation
> also. We use it for SUSE product lines along with other Micro Focus product lines.

Ah, OK, I see. Then this issue can be much more complicated... At least in Czech, let's say Linux and Windows worlds use bit different wording...

> Thanks,
> Padraig

Thank You,
V.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Vojtěch Zeisek [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 21 June 2016 10:36
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] SLE translation team in Weblate
>
> Dne úterý 21. června 2016 8:49:14 CEST, Padraig Dillon napsal(a):
> > I saw one message regarding terminology. We have a terminology
> > database that our translators do have access to. This can be found here:
> > www.novellglossaries.com. This is available for you to access with
> > the following credentials:
> > Username: guest
> > Password: guest
>
> I had a quick look at the Czech language and only about 25 % of the
> strings were translated and among them, some were wrong, misleading or
> inconsistent with the rest of the Czech Linux world or even with the
> usage of the term in Leap. Not tragic situation, but there are some
> weird terms. Such index is of course very helpful, but we need some way to improve it...
> Sincerely,
> Vojtěch
--
Vojtěch Zeisek

Komunita openSUSE GNU/Linuxu
Community of the openSUSE GNU/Linux

https://www.opensuse.org/
https://trapa.cz/
N�����r��y隊Z)z{.��kj{%jب�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.��kj{%jب��0�����Ǩ�
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RE: SLE translation team in Weblate

Padraig Dillon
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
Hi Carlos,

You mention that you have a glossary but it is offline. It there a way to make it available, or a dump of the content so we could have our translators stay consistent with it.

Are there any other language glossaries available?

Thanks,
Padraig.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carlos E. R. [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 21 June 2016 11:45
To: os-trans <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [opensuse-translation] SLE translation team in Weblate

On 2016-06-21 11:53, Padraig Dillon wrote:
> Hi Vojtěch,
>
> Thanks for the initial feedback. I should have clarified, that we use this database to capture terms for non Linux product localisation also. We use it for SUSE product lines along with other Micro Focus product lines.

I'll point out just one pair of terms that were much discussed by the Spanish team: file vs archive. In English they have different meanings.
In Spanish they are typically equivalent. We, after long discussions, reached an agreement on how to differentiate both. I don't see that differentiation in that vocabulary, so that the new translation may break our past agreement.

I could point to our own glossary, but it has been taken offline.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)

N�����r��y隊Z)z{.��kj{%jب�맲��r��z�^�ˬz��N�(�֜��^� ޭ隊Z)z{.��kj{%jب��0�����Ǩ�
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Re: SLE translation team in Weblate

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2016-06-27 13:34, Padraig Dillon wrote:
> Hi Carlos,
>
> You mention that you have a glossary but it is offline. It there a way to make it available, or a dump of the content so we could have our translators stay consistent with it.

It was the glossary used on Vertaal, and yes, I asked Gabriel for a dump
of it (the Spanish one). It's a XML file. Yes, I could forward it to you.

> Are there any other language glossaries available?

Yes, all the languages that were supported by Vertaal could have their
own glossaries. You would have to ask him for a copy of those.

Wait... I think that the xml file I have also has other languages. It is
xml, but I failed to open it with LO.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)


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