Recommended Website Tools

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Recommended Website Tools

Bugzilla from brettholcomb@bellsouth.net
I need to maintain an existing website.  The last time I did this was with
Windows and Dreamweaver.  However, I'm now running OpenSuse 10.1 with KDE and
am wondering what are some recommended Web Authoring tools.  Is Quanta any
good or are there others.

Also, are there any good opensource tools for Windows (part of my life I have
to live in the Windows world <G>).

Thanks.

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Billie Walsh
Brett I. Holcomb wrote:

> I need to maintain an existing website.  The last time I did this was with
> Windows and Dreamweaver.  However, I'm now running OpenSuse 10.1 with KDE and
> am wondering what are some recommended Web Authoring tools.  Is Quanta any
> good or are there others.
>
> Also, are there any good opensource tools for Windows (part of my life I have
> to live in the Windows world <G>).
>
> Thanks.
>
>  
My own opinion is, I like Quanta. I use it in text mode, but it does
have a rather nice graphical mode also if your so inclined. NVu is
another nice editor. It also has text and graphical modes. According to
their website you can edit pages right on the website. Haven't ever
tried that feature so can't speak from personal experience.

Unlike most graphical editors, neither will add any extraneous html to
the page.

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Bugzilla from brettholcomb@bellsouth.net
Thanks.  I'll check both of them out.

On Wednesday 17 January 2007 23:05, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:
> Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
> > I need to maintain an existing website.  The last time I did this was
> > with Windows and Dreamweaver.  However, I'm now running OpenSuse 10.1
snip

> >
> > Thanks.
>
> My own opinion is, I like Quanta. I use it in text mode, but it does
> have a rather nice graphical mode also if your so inclined. NVu is
> another nice editor. It also has text and graphical modes. According to
> their website you can edit pages right on the website. Haven't ever
> tried that feature so can't speak from personal experience.
>
> Unlike most graphical editors, neither will add any extraneous html to
> the page.
>
> --
>
> (o:]>*HUGGLES*<[:o)
> Billie Walsh
> The three best words in the English Language:
> "I LOVE YOU"
> Pass them on!

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Marc Wilson
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from brettholcomb@bellsouth.net
On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 10:55:03PM -0500, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
> I need to maintain an existing website.  The last time I did this was with
> Windows and Dreamweaver.

You can't continue to use Windows and Dreamweaver?  What's wrong with
Dreamweaver?

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

PerfectReign
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from brettholcomb@bellsouth.net
On Wednesday 17 January 2007 19:55, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
> I need to maintain an existing website.  The last time I did this was with
> Windows and Dreamweaver.  However, I'm now running OpenSuse 10.1 with KDE
> and am wondering what are some recommended Web Authoring tools.  Is Quanta
> any good or are there others.

Quanta is good, but IMO, Kate does the trick well.

You could - as I've seen posted - use NVu as well. This all heavily depends on
what exactly you mean by "maintain".

Since you mention Dreamweaver, I'm assuming you don't know how to use
HTML/Javascript/CSS, since Dreamweaver is kinda like FrontPage, AFAIK.

In that case, stick with NVu, because it does a pretty good job of spitting
out fairly normal (unlike FrontPage) HTML/CSS.


>
> Also, are there any good opensource tools for Windows (part of my life I
> have to live in the Windows world <G>).

When using Wintendo, I use HTML-Kit from chami.com.  Brilliant program, with
all the html, css, javascript, php... tags and wizards you could imagine.

Or you could just use FrontPage 98.  :P


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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Raoul Snyman
Hi,

> Quanta is good, but IMO, Kate does the trick well.
I'm a web developer, and I use Quanta. It has code completion and all the rest of that, and uses Kate's editor KPart as it's engine, so all the goodness of Kate with the sweetness of Quanta ;-)

> You could - as I've seen posted - use NVu as well.
I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad experiences. :-(

>> Also, are there any good opensource tools for Windows (part of my life I
>> have to live in the Windows world <G>).
> When using Wintendo, I use HTML-Kit from chami.com.
Trying not to blow my own trumpet here, but I'm developing an open source HTML/PHP/etc editor for Windows. Visit http://www.saturnlaboratories.co.za/ringhtml3.php if you wanna give it a spin. Just be warned that it's nowhere near complete; there are a few bugs, although most of the core functionality works fine. If I'm in Windows, I use my editor.


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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Kevin Donnelly
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
On Thursday 18 January 2007 04:05, Billie Erin Walsh wrote:
> My own opinion is, I like Quanta. I use it in text mode, but it does
> have a rather nice graphical mode also if your so inclined. NVu is
> another nice editor.

As you say, Quanta is easily the best there is for Linux.  

I'm afraid I would strongly recommend *not* using Nvu.  It produces awful
markup.  It tends to use spans for everything, but doesn't delete them
correctly if you change the format (eg from bold to italic).  You then end up
with nested spans which produce unexpected visual results, and to fix this
you have to go into the markup anyway.

I suggested Nvu to my son for a school project, but he got so frustrated with
"why does this heading look different from that one, when I've told them both
to be H1?" that I told him I would go through the markup and tidy it up for
him.  It took 3 hours to tidy up 4 or 5 pages, the markup was so awful.  So
never again!  YMMV, of course.

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

C-29
> I'm afraid I would strongly recommend *not* using Nvu.  It produces awful
> markup.  It tends to use spans for everything, but doesn't delete them
> correctly if you change the format (eg from bold to italic).  You then end up
> with nested spans which produce unexpected visual results, and to fix this
> you have to go into the markup anyway.
>
> I suggested Nvu to my son for a school project, but he got so frustrated with
> "why does this heading look different from that one, when I've told them both
> to be H1?" that I told him I would go through the markup and tidy it up for
> him.  It took 3 hours to tidy up 4 or 5 pages, the markup was so awful.  So
> never again!  YMMV, of course.

This is exactly my experience.  I used NVU once in the past year... I
actually persisted with it for a while too.  The nested span thing was
a nightmare.  Everything is fine-ish if you create the content, and
then do the markup just once, but if you change your mind on anything,
then the nesting gets out of control, and do it a few times and you
webpage starts to do funny things.

I ended up dropping back to a plain text editor to clean things up
(didn't have access to Linux for this work).

On Linux.. I almost always use Quanta+.  The ability to chose raw
code, or wysiwyg views is really nice.. and it (for me anyway)
seamlessly switches back and forth as I need it to.  My alternative to
Quanta is Bluefish.

C.
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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Sergey Mkrtchyan
In reply to this post by PerfectReign
Kai Ponte wrote:
>
> Since you mention Dreamweaver, I'm assuming you don't know how to use
> HTML/Javascript/CSS, since Dreamweaver is kinda like FrontPage, AFAIK.
>

Well, when installing first time, it allows to choose between two modes,
either Coder or Designer, pick up coder and that's it. It is also easy
to switch from one to another afterwards, and use even them both with
splited window.

Notepad++ is another tool for this kind of stuff. I like it even more
than Dreamweaver.

Best
Sergey
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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Ken Schneider - openSUSE
In reply to this post by C-29
On Thu, 2007-01-18 at 12:55 +0100, Clayton wrote:

> > I'm afraid I would strongly recommend *not* using Nvu.  It produces awful
> > markup.  It tends to use spans for everything, but doesn't delete them
> > correctly if you change the format (eg from bold to italic).  You then end up
> > with nested spans which produce unexpected visual results, and to fix this
> > you have to go into the markup anyway.
> >
> > I suggested Nvu to my son for a school project, but he got so frustrated with
> > "why does this heading look different from that one, when I've told them both
> > to be H1?" that I told him I would go through the markup and tidy it up for
> > him.  It took 3 hours to tidy up 4 or 5 pages, the markup was so awful.  So
> > never again!  YMMV, of course.
>
> This is exactly my experience.  I used NVU once in the past year... I
> actually persisted with it for a while too.  The nested span thing was
> a nightmare.  Everything is fine-ish if you create the content, and
> then do the markup just once, but if you change your mind on anything,
> then the nesting gets out of control, and do it a few times and you
> webpage starts to do funny things.
>
> I ended up dropping back to a plain text editor to clean things up
> (didn't have access to Linux for this work).
>
> On Linux.. I almost always use Quanta+.  The ability to chose raw
> code, or wysiwyg views is really nice.. and it (for me anyway)
> seamlessly switches back and forth as I need it to.  My alternative to
> Quanta is Bluefish.
>

OpenOffice produces some fairly clean code.

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Daniel Bauer
On Thursday 18 January 2007 15:08, Kenneth Schneider wrote:
>
> OpenOffice produces some fairly clean code.
>
Sorry Ken, I disagree completely and would rather say that OpenOffice's html
editor is quite useless. It messes up the code by changing the html just by
opening a page, inserts unwanted tags etc. - all without asking and without
the possibility to turn this weird behaviour off.

I don't know what code quanta produces, but at least quanta is well integrated
in KDE which for sure is a plus. And it lets you edit the source as you want
(in OO you can also edit and clean up the code, but as soon as you save it,
all the mess is back again, no way to get around that).

IMO OO can really only be used if you just want a little "me-too-page", but
not for anything serious.

(I use several windows of kwrite [one for the html, another for the css, maybe
one for javascripts] plus a browser window, so I can always see the effects
of what I'm doing just after clicking reload in the browser. I'm faster with
that than earlier when using Adobe GoLive - and have the code as I want it)

Daniel
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Re: Recommended Website Tools

jdd@dodin.org
In reply to this post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
Kenneth Schneider wrote:

> OpenOffice produces some fairly clean code.
>

when you have a document from textprocessing, exporting it
to html is probably the best way (is pdf is not a solution),
but nothing more.

Openoffice insists to keep the paper layout on the website
(settint CSS on any font) ans can only manage one table, so
drop any nested table that exists (unless this changed recently)

I used Quanta on the beginning, mainly for it's very good
help system, but sometime after it become not so well
maintained and I had problems. May be this is old story, but
I didn't use it anymore. (at that time the wisiwyg didn't
anything good)

I stay on "vi", the only one that never made me problems...

when I have to build a complex table or structure, I
sometimes open a mozilla composer, create the table there
and copy/paste the source result

vi lacks only a good utility to code accents (I'm french) in
the file, but _not_ on the screen. In fact you can make it
code the accents when writinbg the file but not the other
way round, so proofreading in vi is awfull.

however, having a konq window for html reading and editing
in vi is acceptable


by the way I hate dreamweather (it destroyed one of my web
site one day...)

jdd
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Re: Recommended Website Tools

peredur
In reply to this post by Marc Wilson
Ysgrifennodd Marc Wilson:
> On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 10:55:03PM -0500, Brett I. Holcomb wrote:
>  
>> I need to maintain an existing website.  The last time I did this was with
>> Windows and Dreamweaver.
>>    
>
> You can't continue to use Windows and Dreamweaver?  What's wrong with
> Dreamweaver?
>  
It produces crappy HTML/CSS just like all the other draggy/droppy
thingies.  We all tried Dreamweaver in work, but went back to hand
coding.  It turns out to be quicker than messing with Dreamweaver and
the demoronifying it.  It's better than FrontPage, I'll give you that,
but that's not saying much.

And I'm not usually a macho-type programmer who thinks everything should
be done in vi and compiled from a Makefile.  Give me a decent IDE any
day: but I've not found a decent HTML/CSS generator anywhere.


Peter


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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Thomas Hertweck
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from brettholcomb@bellsouth.net

I use "bluefish".

Cheers, Th.
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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Bugzilla from brettholcomb@bellsouth.net
Thank you to all who responded.  I'll check out Quanta and bluefish.  Maybe as
I get more familiar with web programming I'll be able to go to vi and the
straight text.  I'm saving all the responses for my reference.

On Thursday 18 January 2007 14:17, Thomas Hertweck wrote:
> I use "bluefish".
>
> Cheers, Th.

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Charles philip Chan
In reply to this post by peredur
On 18 Jan 2007, [hidden email] wrote:

> And I'm not usually a macho-type programmer who thinks everything
> should be done in vi and compiled from a Makefile.  Give me a decent
> IDE any day: but I've not found a decent HTML/CSS generator anywhere.

Emacs (psgml-mode, html-mode or html-help-mode) in conjunction with
css-mode. Let the editor flame wars begin. ;-)

Charles

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by Raoul Snyman
On 01/18/2007 Raoul Snyman wrote:
> I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad
> experiences.  :-(

Nvu has a good text mode also. I have used it for several pages and it
never trashed anything I had done beforehand. It's very similar to Quanta.

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by C-29
Clayton wrote:

>> I'm afraid I would strongly recommend *not* using Nvu.  It produces
>> awful
>> markup.  It tends to use spans for everything, but doesn't delete them
>> correctly if you change the format (eg from bold to italic).  You
>> then end up
>> with nested spans which produce unexpected visual results, and to fix
>> this
>> you have to go into the markup anyway.
>>
>> I suggested Nvu to my son for a school project, but he got so
>> frustrated with
>> "why does this heading look different from that one, when I've told
>> them both
>> to be H1?" that I told him I would go through the markup and tidy it
>> up for
>> him.  It took 3 hours to tidy up 4 or 5 pages, the markup was so
>> awful.  So
>> never again!  YMMV, of course.
>
> This is exactly my experience.  I used NVU once in the past year... I
> actually persisted with it for a while too.  The nested span thing was
> a nightmare.  Everything is fine-ish if you create the content, and
> then do the markup just once, but if you change your mind on anything,
> then the nesting gets out of control, and do it a few times and you
> webpage starts to do funny things.

I've never had any problem like this, and I have used Nvu off and on for
a couple years. Were you using the graphic mode? I have to admit that I
have never tried it in graphic mode. I've only used the text mode.

In windows I use an OLD program called HTMLed. It was originally written
for Windows 3 and updated to 95. As far as I know it was never updated
again after that. It might be a bit difficult to find, but it is still
out there.

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

StephenW-2
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh

--- Billie Erin Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 01/18/2007 Raoul Snyman wrote:
> > I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad
> > experiences.  :-(
>
> Nvu has a good text mode also. I have used it for several pages and it
> never trashed anything I had done beforehand. It's very similar to Quanta.
>

OK ... now I am lost on this web design thing.
I have a teacher at school who asked for an easy web design program she could
use.  I suggested Nvu ... now I wish I had not.  Seems it is not for beginners
(since she will be limited to the WYSIWYG.

I am afraid our school system is stuck (mired, sinking in the quicksand of MS)
using WinXP.  I guess the easiest is some MS slop -- like Frontpage.  Unless,
you can steer me to an acceptable OSS.

Thanks
SW

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Re: Recommended Website Tools

Billie Walsh
StephenW wrote:

> --- Billie Erin Walsh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> On 01/18/2007 Raoul Snyman wrote:
>>    
>>> I prefer not to use WYSIWYG tools, like Nvu, I've only had bad
>>> experiences.  :-(
>>>      
>> Nvu has a good text mode also. I have used it for several pages and it
>> never trashed anything I had done beforehand. It's very similar to Quanta.
>>
>>    
>
> OK ... now I am lost on this web design thing.
> I have a teacher at school who asked for an easy web design program she could
> use.  I suggested Nvu ... now I wish I had not.  Seems it is not for beginners
> (since she will be limited to the WYSIWYG.
>
> I am afraid our school system is stuck (mired, sinking in the quicksand of MS)
> using WinXP.  I guess the easiest is some MS slop -- like Frontpage.  Unless,
> you can steer me to an acceptable OSS.
>
> Thanks
> SW
>
>  
99.9999999% of the WYSIWYG editors are pure trash. They make garbage pages.

Taking the time to learn HTML is well worth it.

Programs like Quanta+ and, despite what some say, Nvu in text mode are
very good. I confess, I have never tried either in WYSIWYG mode. They
both have "button" shortcuts to the tags that you need most, thus
simplifying the process.

For Windows, taking the time to locate HTMLed can be worthwhile. It is
primarily a text editor, although it does have a "preview" capability in
the pro version. As I said in another post it is an OLD Win3/95 program
but still works perfectly in XP. Nvu is also available for Windows as a
more modern editor.

AFAIAC, all the above are easy to use, but then I did my first pages in
Notepad.

For those that don't want to learn the tags "easy" is Frontpage and it's
trash pages.

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