Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report

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Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report

Sarah Julia Kriesch


> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020 um 21:10 Uhr
> Von: "Axel Braun" <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email], "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>, "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "ddemaio" <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report
>
> Hi all,
>
> Am Mittwoch, 24. Juni 2020, 12:39:22 CEST schrieb ddemaio:
>
> <snip>
>
> > You can find the overall minutes at
> > https://etherpad.opensuse.org/p/openSUSELeap152MarketingBrainstorm
>
> In the minutes is a sentence that concerns me:
>
> > The openSUSE Board (Marina, Axel, Simon) wants to do the Marketing stuff for
> > their own. They know that better than the Marketing Team.
>
> I can confirm that this is fake news.
>
> None of us intends to do 'marketing stuff on our own'. We have a very capable
> marketing team, with which we are very happy. It it not the boards duty or
> objecive to churn in every pot.
>
> Can this false sentense please be removed? And maybe the person who states
> this steps up?
>
Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election?
There are no fake news! That is the reality and you have lost 2 Board Members because
you are staying behind the discrimination of different groups of people in the community.

> Thanks
> Axel
>
Best regards,
Sarah

> --
> Dr. Axel Braun <[hidden email]>
> Member of the openSUSE global project board
>
>
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Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report

Marina Latini-2
On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 22:23, Sarah Julia Kriesch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election?
> There are no fake news! That is the reality and you have lost 2 Board Members because
> you are staying behind the discrimination of different groups of people in the community.
>

I am very surprised and concerned by what emerged from the thread.
I am truly concerned that someone felt the need to comment
anonymously: this should never happen in a community that aims to be
open and inclusive.
I think it is necessary to ask why this has become necessary. As a
proud community member part  of the board, and I think I can speak for
the other colleagues on the board as well, I ask everyone to speak
freely, and to express directly. Being on the board also means
listening to constructive criticisms and educated opinions.
Another thing that worries me, and that personally offends me, is that
someone may think that the board can implement any form of
discrimination; During these years both I and the communities with
which I have had the pleasure and the honor of collaborating, we have
committed ourselves to actively fight any form of discrimination of
any kind. For the sake of this community, I invite anyone with reasons
to feel discriminated against to come forward without fear and to
share their experience with us. I want to express maximum openness in
this regard.
At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term
"discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a
serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the
work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it.
This does not mean that, in a difficult period like the one we are
facing, something may have slipped out of sight; I invite anyone
involved in this story to express their opinion (eg Marketing Team) so
that we can provide clarifications and explanations on what has been
done so far.I am of the opinion that a discussion, even hard, but
open, is far more useful and productive than having hidden "snipers"
ready to shoot in the back.

Marina

--
Marina Latini
openSUSE Board: deneb_alpha
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Re: [opensuse-project] Marketing brainstorm meeting report

Christian Boltz-5
Hello,

Am Donnerstag, 25. Juni 2020, 10:18:38 CEST schrieb Marina Latini:

> On Wed, 24 Jun 2020 at 22:23, Sarah Julia Kriesch wrote:
> > Wasn't that the Board opinion after the last election?
> > There are no fake news! That is the reality and you have lost 2
> > Board Members because you are staying behind the discrimination of
> > different groups of people in the community.
> I am very surprised and concerned by what emerged from the thread.
> I am truly concerned that someone felt the need to comment
> anonymously: this should never happen in a community that aims to be
> open and inclusive.
> I think it is necessary to ask why this has become necessary. As a
> proud community member part  of the board, and I think I can speak for
> the other colleagues on the board as well, I ask everyone to speak
> freely, and to express directly. Being on the board also means
> listening to constructive criticisms and educated opinions.
> Another thing that worries me, and that personally offends me, is that
> someone may think that the board can implement any form of
> discrimination; During these years both I and the communities with
> which I have had the pleasure and the honor of collaborating, we have
> committed ourselves to actively fight any form of discrimination of
> any kind. For the sake of this community, I invite anyone with reasons
> to feel discriminated against to come forward without fear and to
> share their experience with us.

That statement sounds good, but hearing it from you or the current board
[0] is more than strange.

The last person who felt discriminated and asked the board for support
was shouted down and kicked out (including being shouted down and
getting all arguments rejected when trying to explain why she felt
discriminated), and the main reason quoted for kicking her out was based
on a sidenote in that request for support.

And now you write the above without feeling bad? Seriously?

I hate to say that, but with the current board, I can't recommend to ask
the board for support in such cases.

Maybe the problem is limited to a specific "whitelisted" [1] person on
the "other side"?
From all I know, that could indeed be the case, but that wouldn't make
things better. Quite the opposite.

> I want to express maximum openness in this regard.

As you wish - I hope the above was open enough ;-) (while still not
completely open to protect the involved)

If not, I can offer more things, but given that they involve human
beings and anonymization is very hard (fully anonym = no longer
understandable), it's probably better for all involved people not to
bring these things up in public.

> At the same time, however, I am urged to suggest not to use the term
> "discrimination" for things that have nothing to do with it. This is a
> serious problem, and using this term improperly risks undermining the
> work of all those who are committed to actively fighting it.

To start with - can we please first have an as-exact-as-possible
definition/description of what is or isn't discrimination?

I'll start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination because
that matches my understanding:

    Discrimination is the act of making distinctions between human
    beings based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which
    they are perceived to belong. People may discriminate on the basis
    of age, caste, [... long list ...] as well as other categories.

There can be positive (not punishing someone who misbehaved) and
negative discrimination (for example punishing someone who did nothing
wrong) - since we are a mostly technical community, they are easily
explained by the words "whitelisting" and "blocklisting" ([1] again).

Can we agree on this definition?



As a somewhat obscure (and admittedly not-too-serious) example: I like
wine and don't like beer. And at many conferences I get discriminated
for my drinking habits at the openSUSE booth because we only offer beer
;-)   [2]

While this is only a minor thing, IMHO it still technically qualifies as
discrimination (I get discriminated for my wine preference) - and also
shows that there are different levels of discrimination, starting from
minor annoyances (no wine at the booth) up to serious issues.
(Needless to say that I won't file a formal complaint because "no wine"
is too minor compared to "serious" discrimination.)

The things that end up with the board are much more serious, but are
still far from the highest level - sadly some recent events in the USA
redefined what worst-case discrimination can be.


Regards,

Christian Boltz

[0] Vinz joined the board late enough to count as an exception

[1] I know that the word "whitelisting" can be seen as discriminating
    (because of "white"), but so far I haven't heard an alternative that
    is better and still understandable for everybody.
    On the positive side, it's easy to replace "blacklist" with
    "blocklist" - and while I've seen people using "allowlist" instead
    of "whitelist", that (still?) sounds somewhat strange to me.

[2] Just to make it clear: the outcome of that not-so-serious example
    should _not_ be that we don't offer beer anymore - it's a good way
    to get people to our booth. However, I won't complain if we also
    offer wine or other drinks - and I'm sure that would bring even more
    people to our booth. Post-Covid19 of course, virtual wine just isn't
    the same as real wine.


--
* cboltz votes for the boring version - can't
<sarnold> that's a bit informal for a mandatory security platform :)
<sbeattie> ah, but you see, contractions are informal, and we can't,
           err can not, err cannot, err can ?not have that.
[from #apparmor, while discussing bugzilla.novell.com/853661]



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