Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Felix Miata-3
Felix Miata composed on 2017-09-04 19:48 (UTC-0400):

> https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/510082 (declined)
> GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings nor KDE mouse cursor
> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830

> What's going on with this? I don't know how to interpret the many lnussel
> entries in the request history. Is someone trying to push Lars' proposed fix
> upstream instead of carrying an openSUSE patch? If yes, where is its discussion
> to be found?

Fixes have been provided in updated rpms for Leap and SLE, but not TW. Is
another bug needed for getting this fixed for TW?
--
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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Karl Cheng
On 15 October 2017 at 16:06, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Fixes have been provided in updated rpms for Leap and SLE, but not TW. Is
> another bug needed for getting this fixed for TW?

I don't see why you'd need to open another bug. Surely it's just a
matter of getting someone to submit an updated patch to GNOME:Factory
(or doing it yourself)?


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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Luca Beltrame
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
Il giorno Sun, 15 Oct 2017 01:06:30 -0400
Felix Miata <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> Fixes have been provided in updated rpms for Leap and SLE, but not
> TW. Is another bug needed for getting this fixed for TW?

The official stance of the GNOME maintainers in TW, IIRC, is that this
needs to be done upstream (very hard to).

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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Felix Miata-3
Luca Beltrame composed on 2017-10-16 06:54 (UTC+0200):

> 15 Oct 2017 01:06:30 -0400 Felix Miata composed:

>> Fixes have been provided in updated rpms for Leap and SLE, but not
>> TW. Is another bug needed for getting this fixed for TW?

> The official stance of the GNOME maintainers in TW, IIRC, is that this
> needs to be done upstream (very hard to).

Very hard to do?

Very hard too?

In any event, I get that as the creator of this problem, upstream is the right
place to fix, but that doesn't make it right for users to suffer poor usability
or accessibility on account of an application's choice of toolkit. Persuading
upstream ought to be easier to do if more distros were onboard with the need.
Getting more distros onboard ought to be easier if the message from
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830
were stronger by including all current openSUSE releases instead of a subset.
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Richard Brown
Felix,

Take your concerns regarding this bug to the upstream GNOME community
where they belong.

The openSUSE GNOME team have decided that they will not carry this
patch in Tumbleweed.

That decision is final

Richard Brown
openSUSE GNOME Team

On 17 October 2017 at 08:02, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Luca Beltrame composed on 2017-10-16 06:54 (UTC+0200):
>
>> 15 Oct 2017 01:06:30 -0400 Felix Miata composed:
>
>>> Fixes have been provided in updated rpms for Leap and SLE, but not
>>> TW. Is another bug needed for getting this fixed for TW?
>
>> The official stance of the GNOME maintainers in TW, IIRC, is that this
>> needs to be done upstream (very hard to).
>
> Very hard to do?
>
> Very hard too?
>
> In any event, I get that as the creator of this problem, upstream is the right
> place to fix, but that doesn't make it right for users to suffer poor usability
> or accessibility on account of an application's choice of toolkit. Persuading
> upstream ought to be easier to do if more distros were onboard with the need.
> Getting more distros onboard ought to be easier if the message from
> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830
> were stronger by including all current openSUSE releases instead of a subset.
> --
> "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
> get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> To contact the owner, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Adrien Plazas
Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about, don't get false hopes.

You may have  a similar feature better implemented upstream once fractional scaling will be done, scaling not just the fonts or the cursor but the whole desktop.

Cheers, Adrien Plazas

Le mar. 17 oct. 2017 à 9:36, Richard Brown <[hidden email]> a écrit :
Felix, Take your concerns regarding this bug to the upstream GNOME community where they belong. The openSUSE GNOME team have decided that they will not carry this patch in Tumbleweed. That decision is final Richard Brown openSUSE GNOME Team On 17 October 2017 at 08:02, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:
Luca Beltrame composed on 2017-10-16 06:54 (UTC+0200):
15 Oct 2017 01:06:30 -0400 Felix Miata composed:
Fixes have been provided in updated rpms for Leap and SLE, but not TW. Is another bug needed for getting this fixed for TW?
The official stance of the GNOME maintainers in TW, IIRC, is that this needs to be done upstream (very hard to).
Very hard to do? Very hard too? In any event, I get that as the creator of this problem, upstream is the right place to fix, but that doesn't make it right for users to suffer poor usability or accessibility on account of an application's choice of toolkit. Persuading upstream ought to be easier to do if more distros were onboard with the need. Getting more distros onboard ought to be easier if the message from https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1022830 were stronger by including all current openSUSE releases instead of a subset. -- "Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email] To contact the owner, e-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Richard Brown
Richard Brown composed on 2017-10-17 09:36 (UTC+0200):

> Take your concerns regarding this bug to the upstream GNOME community
> where they belong.

1-I tried that, and had no luck figuring out where any such discussion has taken
place. All I found is the disdainful (Clasen/RedHat) attitude in
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 comment 3 whose foundation is
laid upon a much older (RedHat originated) usurpation of sensible behavior, that
is, not employing the server's automatic display density calculation (not
letting the computer do the computing), which would obviate need for need for
manual override in the first place:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705
"xserver forces 96 DPI on randr-1.2-capable drivers, overriding correct
autodetection"
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41115
"Please add option to avoid forcing of 96dpi"

2-I'm not part of the Gnome community and don't expect ever will be. Gnome is
what turned me off of Linux on first exposure to it two decades ago. It took KDE
through Mandrake and later SUSE to overcome that poor taste. I use Mozilla (and
thus the thorn that is GTK) only due to absence of alternatives. What standing
would I have to be heard there?

This isn't just about Gnome. It's about surreptitious forcing, absent explicit
specification, of 96 DPI in Xorg, of which Xft.dpi (about which bug 757142) is
only one method. 96 DPI is an anti-usability, anti-accessibility travesty upon
those with poorer than average vision, the underlying reason for my interest in
the subject bug.
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Sergey Kondakov
On 17.10.2017 13:42, Felix Miata wrote:

> Richard Brown composed on 2017-10-17 09:36 (UTC+0200):
>
>> Take your concerns regarding this bug to the upstream GNOME community
>> where they belong.
>
> 1-I tried that, and had no luck figuring out where any such discussion has taken
> place. All I found is the disdainful (Clasen/RedHat) attitude in
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=757142 comment 3 whose foundation is
> laid upon a much older (RedHat originated) usurpation of sensible behavior, that
> is, not employing the server's automatic display density calculation (not
> letting the computer do the computing), which would obviate need for need for
> manual override in the first place:
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705
> "xserver forces 96 DPI on randr-1.2-capable drivers, overriding correct
> autodetection"
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41115
> "Please add option to avoid forcing of 96dpi"
>
> 2-I'm not part of the Gnome community and don't expect ever will be. Gnome is
> what turned me off of Linux on first exposure to it two decades ago. It took KDE
> through Mandrake and later SUSE to overcome that poor taste. I use Mozilla (and
> thus the thorn that is GTK) only due to absence of alternatives. What standing
> would I have to be heard there?
>
> This isn't just about Gnome. It's about surreptitious forcing, absent explicit
> specification, of 96 DPI in Xorg, of which Xft.dpi (about which bug 757142) is
> only one method. 96 DPI is an anti-usability, anti-accessibility travesty upon
> those with poorer than average vision, the underlying reason for my interest in
> the subject bug.
>
Well, if corporate officials are so keen on breaking their distro just for the sake of some solidarity with Gnome/KDE/FD madmen, maybe we should rely on user repoes for that. Does anyone already keep branch-forks on OBS for Xorg and GTK3 with these DPI patches ? I'm too lazy to do it for myself and don't have necessity yet but would switch to them without a second thought.

Or maybe it's time to switch distro entirely. They already ditched live installer, so, I wouldn't be able to reliably do new TW installs with my fixes anyway. And there are seem to be some alternatives rising with their analogues to OBS. And from countries that don't recognize software patenting to that. Their updates are slower and community is smaller, thought. Yet.

It seems that public build farm that gives us the ability to selectively defy anti-user behaviour like this is the last and only thing that's going for openSUSE these days.


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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Karl Cheng
In reply to this post by Richard Brown
On 17 October 2017 at 18:36, Richard Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Felix,
>
> Take your concerns regarding this bug to the upstream GNOME community
> where they belong.
>
> The openSUSE GNOME team have decided that they will not carry this
> patch in Tumbleweed.
>
> That decision is final
>
> Richard Brown
> openSUSE GNOME Team

I'd like to ask a few questions with regards to this:

1. Is it important that openSUSE Leap and Tumbleweed have a consistent
user experience as far as possible? Surely carrying the patch in one
distribution but not the other is incongruent with that principle.

2. Are there any other members of the openSUSE GNOME team (aside from
the users listed in the GNOME OBS repo)?

3. Is this team any different to other teams with regards to
maintainership processes and who can be involved in managing these
packages?

I'm not trying to disparage the great work that the GNOME maintainers
do for openSUSE but I do think it's important that these types of
issues are clarified as much as possible.

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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Luca Beltrame
In reply to this post by Sergey Kondakov
Il giorno Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:53:28 +0500
Sergey Kondakov <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

> Well, if corporate officials are so keen on breaking their distro
> just for the sake of some solidarity with Gnome/KDE/FD madmen, maybe

It doesn't make sense. SLE (the one which should be ruled by "corporate
officials" according to your questionable statement) accepted the
patch. So this policy, which can be debatable if you may (but not with
this tone), is set by people as part of their community involvement,
not by corporate overlords.

> Or maybe it's time to switch distro entirely. They already ditched
> live installer, so, I wouldn't be able to reliably do new TW installs

If you need to rant, get your facts straight at least. Live images (at
least the KDE software ones, which I'm more familiar with) have a live
installer, and it's even being tested.

--
Luca Beltrame - KDE Forums team
GPG key ID: A29D259B

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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Sergey Kondakov
On 18.10.2017 10:25, Luca Beltrame wrote:

> Il giorno Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:53:28 +0500
> Sergey Kondakov <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
>
>> Well, if corporate officials are so keen on breaking their distro
>> just for the sake of some solidarity with Gnome/KDE/FD madmen, maybe
>
> It doesn't make sense. SLE (the one which should be ruled by "corporate
> officials" according to your questionable statement) accepted the
> patch. So this policy, which can be debatable if you may (but not with
> this tone), is set by people as part of their community involvement,
> not by corporate overlords.
Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you too irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless pricks ! Especially if breakage comes from an employee of your competitor. Although, doesn't *SUSE now belongs to HP and that's where Keith Packard ( https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705#c6 ) works ? I guess breaking X11 is just in fashion now, along with ugly monochrome icons and general removal of decades-old functionality. How long before filesystem tree structure is deemed "obsolete", like it's Android or year 1967 ?

Graphical interface always was an afterthought in FOSS since it's not part of clusters and supercomputers but software vendors for these do try to sell "workstation" licenses and support contracts. And these "workstations" use Gnome as officially supported DE. But that kind of "support" is beyond ridiculous at this point, it's cluelessly irresponsible. Things like that is why people shell out the big bucks to pay for Apple products. It's not even an issue of money or manpower.

>> Or maybe it's time to switch distro entirely. They already ditched
>> live installer, so, I wouldn't be able to reliably do new TW installs
>
> If you need to rant, get your facts straight at least. Live images (at
> least the KDE software ones, which I'm more familiar with) have a live
> installer, and it's even being tested.
>

Really ? And where can I install that installer for _my_ live kiwi-built images ? Because what I see is https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/404819


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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Luca Beltrame
Il giorno Wed, 18 Oct 2017 13:13:51 +0500
Sergey Kondakov <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
 
> Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone
> just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a

No, it's a decision by the maintainers, those that happen to do the
work. To make an example, the move from Plasma 4 to Plasma 5 in oS was
also a "final decision" by the KDE team.
As I said, it may be up for debate on this specific issue, but deviating
from upstream places a burden on whoever's maintaining it. And yes,
things do break from time to time due to this. So, it may be reasonable
for the maintainer to not want a downstream patch.
This can be discussed, can be agreed upon, can be disagreed upon: but
not ranting.

> "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably
> sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you too

The "maintainers" are also community members, and this includes people
*not* on any corporate payroll (not that being on a corporate payroll
is a bad thing, mind you). This overgeneralization is offensive
for those who spend their free time putting things together.

> "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless

What do you think most those "useless pricks" do? For the reason above,
upstream engagement is frequent, if not daily.

> competitor. Although, doesn't *SUSE now belongs to HP and that's
> where Keith Packard

It's actually the other way round, as far as I can remember.

> Really ? And where can I install that installer for _my_ live

Yes, really. https://openqa.opensuse.org/tests/507111

(And it's obviously useless to continue this discussion given the
vitriol poured)

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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Sergey Kondakov
Sergey Kondakov composed on 2017-10-18 13:13 (UTC+0500):

> ...if breakage comes from an employee of your competitor. Although,
> doesn't *SUSE now belongs to HP and that's where Keith Packard (
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705#c6 ) works ? I guess
> breaking X11 is just in fashion now, along with ugly monochrome icons and
> general removal of decades-old functionality....
IMO blame for the immediate problem does not belong with Packard, but with the
creator of the patch that created the problem, RedHat's Matthias Clasen, with
RedHat's backing, as RedHat is pushing for the replacement of Xorg with Wayland.
Foundational IMO blame does ultimately belong to Packard, back around 2008 or 9
(who originally created the Xorg fork of XFree86; while working for Intel;
leading to bug 23705), for disallowing application of Xorg's computation of
display density, absent willful override, from being applied automatically (not
letting the computer do the computing).

IMO, Clasen's patch:

1-constitutes covert inducement to get more people to sooner make a switch to
Fedora/RedHat/Wayland/Gnome.

2-intentionally defeats patches attached to
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41115

I suspect that this was transparent to our Gnome team, and at least part of the
reason(s) why all Leap users using >96 DPI displays are lucky enough to have
GTK3 apps able to respect users' font settings without additional manual
reconfiguration whenever a display is installed or changed.
--
"Wisdom is supreme; therefore get wisdom. Whatever else you
get, get wisdom." Proverbs 4:7 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Christian Boltz-5
In reply to this post by Sergey Kondakov
Hi Sergey,

Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017, 10:13:51 CEST schrieb Sergey Kondakov:
> Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone
> just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a
> random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core
> functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called
> "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably
> sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you too
> irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your
> "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless pricks
> !

Please adjust your tone!

Flaming and insulting people won't help you to convince someone to fulfil
your wish (quite the opposite). The only thing you improve this way is
the chance to get banned from the mailinglist. (Consider this an official
warning from the Board!)

Please also take a few minutes to read
    https://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_principles
and act in a way that follows our guiding principles.


Regards,

Christian Boltz
--
<sarnold> the old "which is worse, X or Y?" game :)
<mancha> which is worse, the which is worse game or recursion jokes?

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Toxic inuslt directed at contributers [was Re: Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings]

badshah400
Dear Christian,

As one of these voluntary contributors to the openSUSE GNOME desktop*,
I am __personally__ offended by the email quoted below, and furthermore
by the board's tolerance of such toxic insult, by essentially rewarding
virulence** with a slap-of-the-wrist "consider yourself warned"
message.

Let's just summarise what the email alleges about me, given that I am
part of the GNOME team:
 * I want to be an asshole to the whole userbase,
 * So-called "maintainer" who sits with thumb up someone else's arse,
   and
 * A useless prick.

In response, you "warned" him. Yeah, much good that will do!!! If every
single one of us gets one chance to spit such insult on someone else on
this ML, I am pretty sure you know how that will turn out. While I
understand differences in opinion can drive conflict which can
sometimes straddle the boundary of civil and not-so-civil, this kind of
abuse is not something anyone, let alone the board of a respectable
community organisation, ought to tolerate. Even. Once.

Please consider this my official complaint against this particular
individual, and against this policy of warn once no-matter-how-bad.

* I also voluntarily devote my not-all-that-much free time toward the
maintenance of several packages in the science and Education projects.
** No, I won't just accept and move on, in case you are wondering.
Nobody told me I had to first build the skin of a rhino to contribute
to an opensource community project.
*** In case you received my email twice, apologies! My previous message
didn't get through to the list, as far as I can see.
--
Atri B (irc nick: badshah400)

On Wed, 2017-10-18 at 14:30 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:

> Hi Sergey,
>
> Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017, 10:13:51 CEST schrieb Sergey Kondakov:
> > Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone
> > just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a
> > random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core
> > functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called
> > "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself comfortably
> > sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you
> > too
> > irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your
> > "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless
> > pricks
> > !
>
> Please adjust your tone!
>
> Flaming and insulting people won't help you to convince someone to
> fulfil
> your wish (quite the opposite). The only thing you improve this way
> is
> the chance to get banned from the mailinglist. (Consider this an
> official
> warning from the Board!)
>
> Please also take a few minutes to read
>     https://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_principles
> and act in a way that follows our guiding principles.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Christian Boltz
> --
> <sarnold> the old "which is worse, X or Y?" game :)
> <mancha> which is worse, the which is worse game or recursion jokes?
>
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We're all people, after all. [was: Toxic inuslt directed at contributers [was Re: Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings]]

Christopher Myers-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

It deeply saddens me how terribly human beings treat each other.


Christian, you very much owe an apology to the folks you just
lambasted. There is absolutely no excuse for someone to act the way
that you did, especially over something that, in the grand scheme of
life, matters so very very little.


Atri, while I don't use Gnome, I very much appreciate the (often
thankless) effort that you and the other maintainers put in on our
behalf.




On Wed, 2017-10-18 at 21:35 +0200, [hidden email] wrote:

> Dear Christian,
>
> As one of these voluntary contributors to the openSUSE GNOME
> desktop*,
> I am __personally__ offended by the email quoted below, and
> furthermore
> by the board's tolerance of such toxic insult, by essentially
> rewarding
> virulence** with a slap-of-the-wrist "consider yourself warned"
> message.
>
> Let's just summarise what the email alleges about me, given that I am
> part of the GNOME team:
>  * I want to be an asshole to the whole userbase,
>  * So-called "maintainer" who sits with thumb up someone else's arse,
>    and
>  * A useless prick.
>
> In response, you "warned" him. Yeah, much good that will do!!! If
> every
> single one of us gets one chance to spit such insult on someone else
> on
> this ML, I am pretty sure you know how that will turn out. While I
> understand differences in opinion can drive conflict which can
> sometimes straddle the boundary of civil and not-so-civil, this kind
> of
> abuse is not something anyone, let alone the board of a respectable
> community organisation, ought to tolerate. Even. Once.
>
> Please consider this my official complaint against this particular
> individual, and against this policy of warn once no-matter-how-bad.
>
> * I also voluntarily devote my not-all-that-much free time toward the
> maintenance of several packages in the science and Education
> projects.
> ** No, I won't just accept and move on, in case you are wondering.
> Nobody told me I had to first build the skin of a rhino to contribute
> to an opensource community project.
> *** In case you received my email twice, apologies! My previous
> message
> didn't get through to the list, as far as I can see.
> --
> Atri B (irc nick: badshah400)
>
> On Wed, 2017-10-18 at 14:30 +0200, Christian Boltz wrote:
> > Hi Sergey,
> >
> > Am Mittwoch, 18. Oktober 2017, 10:13:51 CEST schrieb Sergey
> > Kondakov:
> > > Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like
> > > someone
> > > just wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's
> > > a
> > > random user's responsibility to single-handedly fix core
> > > functionality _and_ deal with upstream while these so called
> > > "maintainers", "teams" and paid project leader himself
> > > comfortably
> > > sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ? First take (if you
> > > too
> > > irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix in your
> > > "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless
> > > pricks
> > > !
> >
> > Please adjust your tone!
> >
> > Flaming and insulting people won't help you to convince someone to
> > fulfil
> > your wish (quite the opposite). The only thing you improve this way
> > is
> > the chance to get banned from the mailinglist. (Consider this an
> > official
> > warning from the Board!)
> >
> > Please also take a few minutes to read
> >     https://en.opensuse.org/Guiding_principles
> > and act in a way that follows our guiding principles.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Christian Boltz
> > --
> > <sarnold> the old "which is worse, X or Y?" game :)
> > <mancha> which is worse, the which is worse game or recursion
> > jokes?
> >
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Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings

Knurpht-openSUSE
In reply to this post by Sergey Kondakov
Op woensdag 18 oktober 2017 10:13:51 CEST schreef Sergey Kondakov:

> On 18.10.2017 10:25, Luca Beltrame wrote:
> > Il giorno Tue, 17 Oct 2017 19:53:28 +0500
> >
> > Sergey Kondakov <[hidden email]> ha scritto:
> >> Well, if corporate officials are so keen on breaking their distro
> >> just for the sake of some solidarity with Gnome/KDE/FD madmen, maybe
> >
> > It doesn't make sense. SLE (the one which should be ruled by "corporate
> > officials" according to your questionable statement) accepted the
> > patch. So this policy, which can be debatable if you may (but not with
> > this tone), is set by people as part of their community involvement,
> > not by corporate overlords.
>
> Then this "final decision" makes even less sense. It's like someone just
> wants to be an asshole to whole userbase. How the hell it's a random user's
> responsibility to single-handedly fix core functionality _and_ deal with
> upstream while these so called "maintainers", "teams" and paid project
> leader himself comfortably sit with each others' thumbs up their assess ?
> First take (if you too irresponsible to even find/make it yourself) the fix
> in your "product" and then deal with upstream yourselves, you useless
> pricks ! Especially if breakage comes from an employee of your competitor.
> Although, doesn't *SUSE now belongs to HP and that's where Keith Packard (
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=23705#c6 ) works ? I guess
> breaking X11 is just in fashion now, along with ugly monochrome icons and
> general removal of decades-old functionality. How long before filesystem
> tree structure is deemed "obsolete", like it's Android or year 1967 ?
>
> Graphical interface always was an afterthought in FOSS since it's not part
> of clusters and supercomputers but software vendors for these do try to
> sell "workstation" licenses and support contracts. And these "workstations"
> use Gnome as officially supported DE. But that kind of "support" is beyond
> ridiculous at this point, it's cluelessly irresponsible. Things like that
> is why people shell out the big bucks to pay for Apple products. It's not
> even an issue of money or manpower.
> >> Or maybe it's time to switch distro entirely. They already ditched
> >> live installer, so, I wouldn't be able to reliably do new TW installs
> >
> > If you need to rant, get your facts straight at least. Live images (at
> > least the KDE software ones, which I'm more familiar with) have a live
> > installer, and it's even being tested.
>
> Really ? And where can I install that installer for _my_ live kiwi-built
> images ? Because what I see is
> https://build.opensuse.org/request/show/404819

FYI : You've crossed every line of what is acceptable in this community. I for
one will not tolerate people being talked to like this. You should be ashamed
of yourself going this far below the belt in implicite personal attacks.
Intolerable is the word.

--
Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht

openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team
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Re: Toxic inuslt directed at contributers [was Re: Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings]

Brüns, Stefan
In reply to this post by badshah400
Dear Atri,

I can clearly understand you feel hurt, there are enough statements in Sergeys
e-mail to be offended.

The board, in person Christian, did stand up against the accusations, and this
time they did in a timely manner, while in the past they were somewhat
reluctant to do so, and I appreciate they did now.

The accusations and name calling are in no way acceptable, and the board
clealy does not tolerate it. If a warning is sufficient or not is a matter of
opinion, Sergey is a first time offender, so personally I am strictly pro
letting it pass this time, hoping he would think twice the next time he
criticizes some decision. Yes, I hope the warning will do some good.

Maintainership or even contribution is no popularity contest. I myself have
doubted the sanity of maintainers sometimes in the past, thinking "how dare
you" when killing my favourite pet feature. I have stood up for maintainer
decisions when I saw the overall benefit for some unpopular change. I know
both sides.

As a community, we are striving to improve open source in general and openSUSE
in particular. Although we share this goal we are all individuals, with
different opionions how this vision looks like in detail. But over all
disagreements, there is no tolerance for uncivility, offense or violence. I
think the board showed it shares this view, I hopefully did myself with this
letter, and I think everyone else should do as well*.

Kind regards,

Stefan

* in most cases, I am strictly against "me too" statements - but there are
occasion where keeping quiet is not the best thing you can do.

--
Stefan Brüns  /  Bergstraße 21  /  52062 Aachen
home: +49 241 53809034     mobile: +49 151 50412019
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Re: Toxic inuslt directed at contributers [was Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings]

Christian Boltz-5
In reply to this post by badshah400
Hi Atri,

I have to apologize.

I wrote my previous mail in a hurry with the intention to prevent more
insults. (The alternative would have been to wait for some more hours,
which I considered the worse option.)

After re-reading Sergey's mail, I realized how toxic and insulting it
really was, and I fully understand that you are pissed off with me for
my (in hindsight)  far too diplomatic mail (and "far too diplomatic"
still sounds too mild - sorry, I don't have a better word to explain
it).  I really should have written something like Gertjan did :-/

I also realized that I should have ignored the "send a warning" policy
in this extreme case. (Actually I just sent a mail to my board
colleagues that we should ban Sergey. Yes, too late to avoid upsetting
you. :-( )

So again, sorry!

I highly appreciate what you and the GNOME team do for openSUSE, and
hope you can forgive me. If there is anything I can do to help you feel
better again, please let me know.


Regards,

Christian Boltz

PS: The (random!) signature makes me look additionally bad - but I
    probably deserve that.
    (Unfortunately it's in german, so I'll add a translation.)
--
PUNKT! AUS! UND FINITO! Da gibt's keine Diskussion, da kann man sich
nicht rausreden, auch wenn man nen Handstand macht, mit 30 Zehen
wackelt oder sich sonst wie zum Affen (Ups: Sorry an alle Affen, ist
nur so'n blöder Ausdruck von uns auch-Affen!) macht!
[David Haller in opensuse-de]

translation:
FULL STOP. END. AND FINITO! There is no discussion, you can't make
excuses, even if you do a handstand, wiggle with 30 toes or otherwise
make yourself a monkey! (oops, sorry to all monkeys - that's just a
silly expression of us also-monkeys!)
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Re: Toxic inuslt directed at contributers [was Re: Re: bug 1022830 GTK3 apps not honoring system-wide DPI settings]

Karl Cheng
In reply to this post by badshah400
Can we please try to resolve these issues amongst the people involved
first, *before* spilling this drama out onto public mailing lists?

It would make it a lot easier if people were given a chance to explain
themselves first, without the risk of being misunderstood by others.
If the issue still cannot be resolved in any particularly constructive
manner, *then* it would make sense to open up the discussion to
further input.

--
- Karl Cheng (Qantas94Heavy)
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