Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

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Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Farhad Mohammadi Majd
Hello, first of all I must say this request is not related to "default
DE" issue.

From many years ago up to current release, openSUSE provides a 4.4GB
ISO image for DVD and offline installation, and one Net Install ISO
image less than 100MB.

This approach has many big problems:

4.4GB image:
===========

* It is very huge and hard to get for most people specially who are in
un-developed and in-development countries who have the low-bandwidth
and limited-traffic internet service.

* It is wasting the network traffic and bandwidth for both users and
openSUSE servers, because not all the software in the ISO image used by
users. Most users usually installs only one DE.

Net Install image:
=================

* It needs to internet and huge data to get for *every* install. If
users want to install openSUSE on 2-3 different systems or on different
partitions of Hard Disk, they need to internet and huge data to get for
every installation.

These problems are also mentioned by other people:

* https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/459865-Surprised-by-size-o
f-distro-iso-download

* In one review of openSUSE that I read last year in a famous website,
the author pointed to this problem.

To solve mentioned problems and to attract more users to openSUSE, this
project should provide separate ISO image for each DE, exactly like
Fedora:

https://spins.fedoraproject.org/

Thanks
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Daniel Morris
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 06:31:46PM +0430, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
> users. Most users usually installs only one DE.
>

That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME
applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other
DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices
may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just
be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.

I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth,
but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download
may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.

Perhaps a dedicated OBS project with a subset of software would be a
better solution for a <DVD >CDROM size release?

 Daniel
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Bruno Friedmann-2
In reply to this post by Farhad Mohammadi Majd
On vendredi, 21 avril 2017 16.01:46 h CEST Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

> Hello, first of all I must say this request is not related to "default
> DE" issue.
>
> From many years ago up to current release, openSUSE provides a 4.4GB
> ISO image for DVD and offline installation, and one Net Install ISO
> image less than 100MB.
>
> This approach has many big problems:
>
> 4.4GB image:
> ===========
>
> * It is very huge and hard to get for most people specially who are in
> un-developed and in-development countries who have the low-bandwidth
> and limited-traffic internet service.
>
> * It is wasting the network traffic and bandwidth for both users and
> openSUSE servers, because not all the software in the ISO image used by
> users. Most users usually installs only one DE.
>
> Net Install image:
> =================
>
> * It needs to internet and huge data to get for *every* install.
Wrong I mostly need less than 1Gb for my typical install ;-)
See mine is shorter than,
> If
> users want to install openSUSE on 2-3 different systems or on different
> partitions of Hard Disk, they need to internet and huge data to get for
> every installation.
You know that you can copy an install media, have a proxy, an own mirror.
Solution are endless for those who want.
> These problems are also mentioned by other people:
>
> * https://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php/459865-Surprised-by-size-o
> f-distro-iso-download

Shall I really add the fact that when I install a Debian things, I have almost
one day to spend to have all the software I can have in one clic.
Oh sorry I don't even know which iso I have to download to have a desktop over
a virtualization server.

Perhaps one day you will understand that no openSUSE is not a copycat of other
stuff, why would we contribute to those kind of things.

> * In one review of openSUSE that I read last year in a famous website,
> the author pointed to this problem.
No link no proof.
>
> To solve mentioned problems and to attract more users to openSUSE, this
> project should provide separate ISO image for each DE, exactly like
> Fedora:
> https://spins.fedoraproject.org/
>
> Thanks
What is able to do fedora project is not what we can, or want to.

The problem with your request is whatever you can ask, you should ask yourself
the question of why we don't have, and what YOU will DO to make it happen.

What I will win as contributor, to anwser to your request ?


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 Ioda-Net Sàrl www.ioda-net.ch
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Mykola Krachkovsky
In reply to this post by Daniel Morris
Well, SUSE Studio is nice solution for this problem: select any repositories
and software you want. Just one problem, there is no Leap 42.2 yet.

And as for Tumbleweed there is no sense for different ISO's.
Tumbleweed updates several times a week, so NetInstall is only viable option
for that. IMHO. Anyway it wants a lot of traffic.

пʼятниця, 21 квітня 2017 р. 17:49:09 EEST Daniel Morris написано:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 06:31:46PM +0430, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
> > users. Most users usually installs only one DE.
>
> That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME
> applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other
> DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices
> may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just
> be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.
>
> I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth,
> but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download
> may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.
>
> Perhaps a dedicated OBS project with a subset of software would be a
> better solution for a <DVD >CDROM size release?
>
>  Daniel

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Mykola Krachkovsky

З повагою,
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Farhad Mohammadi Majd
On 2017-04-21 16:01, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:

> Hello, first of all I must say this request is not related to "default
> DE" issue.
>
> From many years ago up to current release, openSUSE provides a 4.4GB
> ISO image for DVD and offline installation, and one Net Install ISO
> image less than 100MB.
>
> This approach has many big problems:
>
> 4.4GB image:
> ===========
>
> * It is very huge and hard to get for most people specially who are in
> un-developed and in-development countries who have the low-bandwidth
> and limited-traffic internet service.
No, it is not true for "most people". Maybe for many people.

However, from personal experience, when I had low bandwidth (1Mbps) I
preferred to use this install method. Why? Because I could download the
DVD slowly, even if it took a week, then install a lot of software in
several computers without using Internet at all during the install.

> Net Install image:
> =================
>
> * It needs to internet and huge data to get for *every* install. If
> users want to install openSUSE on 2-3 different systems or on different
> partitions of Hard Disk, they need to internet and huge data to get for
> every installation.

Not true. The download data is the minimal of any method, as you only
download exactly what you are going to install. Of course, the download
is repeated for each machine - so use the DVD install instead.


> To solve mentioned problems and to attract more users to openSUSE, this
> project should provide separate ISO image for each DE, exactly like
> Fedora:
>
> https://spins.fedoraproject.org/

Let Fedora go their way, and we our way :-)

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Larry Stotler
In reply to this post by Daniel Morris
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Daniel Morris <[hidden email]> wrote:

> That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME
> applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other
> DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices
> may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just
> be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.
>
> I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth,
> but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download
> may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.
>
> Perhaps a dedicated OBS project with a subset of software would be a
> better solution for a <DVD >CDROM size release?

This is the exact problem that SUSE Studio was created to fix.  You
can build the ISO file with what you need/want and the it
automagically pull in the dependencies.  Then, if you want, you can
remove some things you don't want(i.e. I taboo stuff like tracker,
avahi, etc because I see no value in it.  It may "break" some things,
but it will work).

If you haven't tried SUSE Studio, then I highly recommend it.  About
the only real limitation I ever saw was it's only x86-32 or x86-64 and
doesn't support other archs(least it didn't last time I used it).

susestudio.com
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Simon Lees-3
In reply to this post by Daniel Morris


On 04/22/2017 12:19 AM, Daniel Morris wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 06:31:46PM +0430, Farhad Mohammadi Majd wrote:
>> users. Most users usually installs only one DE.
>>
>
> That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME
> applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other
> DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices
> may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just
> be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.
>
Well in these cases they could install these apps after and still have
there main system running off the initial image, or continue to use the DVD.

> I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth,
> but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download
> may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.
>  
Providing per DE iso's doesn't mean we need to drop the DVD.

--

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Emergency Update Team                           keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux                           Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Simon Lees-3
In reply to this post by Larry Stotler


On 04/22/2017 10:22 AM, Larry Stotler wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Daniel Morris <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> That's not strictly true. I use Plasma as my DE but I also some GNOME
>> applications, such as gnumeric and gimp. Conversely I expect many other
>> DE users may enjoy KDE apps, such as digikam etc. Some of those choices
>> may come from legacy & interoperability cases, other times it could just
>> be the great features, eg konsole is a superb terminal emulator.
>>
>> I don't wish to denigrate the genuine issues of lack/cost of bandwidth,
>> but pigeon-holing users into a single DE ISO for the mainstream download
>> may remove a lot of the flexibility currently offered.
>>
>> Perhaps a dedicated OBS project with a subset of software would be a
>> better solution for a <DVD >CDROM size release?
>
> This is the exact problem that SUSE Studio was created to fix.  You
> can build the ISO file with what you need/want and the it
> automagically pull in the dependencies.  Then, if you want, you can
> remove some things you don't want(i.e. I taboo stuff like tracker,
> avahi, etc because I see no value in it.  It may "break" some things,
> but it will work).
>
> If you haven't tried SUSE Studio, then I highly recommend it.  About
> the only real limitation I ever saw was it's only x86-32 or x86-64 and
> doesn't support other archs(least it didn't last time I used it).
>
> susestudio.com
>
That would be nice if it was being maintained well, but at the moment it
isn't last time I checked there wasn't a 42.2 templates available, if
you mess around for long enough you can get there but at the moment SUSE
Studio isn't fixing this for most users.

--

Simon Lees (Simotek)                            http://simotek.net

Emergency Update Team                           keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux                           Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Larry Stotler
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:24 PM, Simon Lees <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That would be nice if it was being maintained well, but at the moment it
> isn't last time I checked there wasn't a 42.2 templates available, if
> you mess around for long enough you can get there but at the moment SUSE
> Studio isn't fixing this for most users.

Hmmmm.....I hadn't logged in for a good while.  It's only showing 42.1
and 4 versions of SUSE Linux Enterprise.....

I remember there being a lag but not sure how long.  Anyone have any
idea who maintains Studio?
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

opensuse.lietuviu.kalba
2017.04.22 06:44, Larry Stotler rašė:
> Hmmmm.....I hadn't logged in for a good while.  It's only showing 42.1
> and 4 versions of SUSE Linux Enterprise.....

Hi,

Template for 42.1 can be used fine to build 42.2. There is SUSE Studio
appliances, that based on 42.1 template, but contains 42.2 repositories
(you need to change repositories manually):

https://susestudio.com/a/CttYWz/lietukas-42-2-multilingual

https://susestudio.com/a/WeLBs4/ssbox-sak-42-2

https://susestudio.com/a/VU5ypu/opensuse-leap-42-2-kde

https://susestudio.com/a/gstyhp/newt-os-lts

https://susestudio.com/a/VU5ypu/opensuse-leap-42-2-kde3-live

https://susestudio.com/a/OO38wm/geckolinux-cinnamon

etc...

You can search also
https://susestudio.com/search?order=relevance&per_page=50&q=42.2

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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

opensuse.lietuviu.kalba
2017.04.22 07:38, opensuse.lietuviu.kalba rašė:
> Template for 42.1 can be used fine to build 42.2. There is SUSE Studio
> appliances, that based on 42.1 template, but contains 42.2
> repositories (you need to change repositories manually):

The challenge in 42.2 is to provide installer, because default
yast2-live-installer from 42.2 no longer works.

However "Calamares" installer used in appliances in GeckoLinux 422,
Lietukas 42.2, Newt OS LTS 17.0.15

You can search
https://susestudio.com/search?order=relevance&per_page=50&q=42.2+calamares

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Re: QUESTION ABOUT Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
On 21/04/17 06:32 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> However, from personal experience, when I had low bandwidth (1Mbps) I
> preferred to use this install method. Why? Because I could download the
> DVD slowly, even if it took a week, then install a lot of software in
> several computers without using Internet at all during the install.

There used to be "boxed" version of openSUSE.
I know because the very first version I had was in this format.  it came with
the --at that time CDs set, printed installation instructions and other
documentation.
Is that format still available?

I've also seen other services that will burn and ship a distribution DVD for you.
Do the still exist?


It would certainly be an alternative to downloading, even over a low bandwidth link.
A greater latency perhaps.

Mind you. even the long time leap-Updates repository takes to sync on my cable
links, I wonder about how those with a lesser bandwidth deal with updates.



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Re: QUESTION ABOUT Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2017-04-22 13:10, Anton Aylward wrote:
> On 21/04/17 06:32 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> However, from personal experience, when I had low bandwidth (1Mbps) I
>> preferred to use this install method. Why? Because I could download the
>> DVD slowly, even if it took a week, then install a lot of software in
>> several computers without using Internet at all during the install.
>
> There used to be "boxed" version of openSUSE.

Yes, I have several boxes.

> I know because the very first version I had was in this format.  it came with
> the --at that time CDs set, printed installation instructions and other
> documentation.
> Is that format still available?

I believe it is in German. In English it was done by another company but
I think it failed or something.

> I've also seen other services that will burn and ship a distribution DVD for you.
> Do the still exist?

Dunno. Perhaps.


> It would certainly be an alternative to downloading, even over a low bandwidth link.
> A greater latency perhaps.
>
> Mind you. even the long time leap-Updates repository takes to sync on my cable
> links, I wonder about how those with a lesser bandwidth deal with updates.

Badly.

With low bandwidth you simply have to wait it out. The initial refresh
could take 10 minutes on my system some (few, perhaps 2) years ago.

But with a cap you are doomed.


I conversed with someone having to download updates in a library, then
take the disk to home far away.


--
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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: QUESTION ABOUT Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Anton Aylward-2
On 22/04/17 07:38 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> But with a cap you are doomed.
>
>
> I conversed with someone having to download updates in a library, then
> take the disk to home far away.

That is one possibility.
Another might be that someone volunteers.
The problem with volunteering is that the volunteer might get swamped with
requests and some of those requests might come from people who are
network-capable but too lazy to download and burn a DVD themselves.

*sigh*

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Idiocy comes easily.
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Re: QUESTION ABOUT Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2017-04-22 13:55, Anton Aylward wrote:

> On 22/04/17 07:38 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> But with a cap you are doomed.
>>
>>
>> I conversed with someone having to download updates in a library, then
>> take the disk to home far away.
>
> That is one possibility.
> Another might be that someone volunteers.
> The problem with volunteering is that the volunteer might get swamped with
> requests and some of those requests might come from people who are
> network-capable but too lazy to download and burn a DVD themselves.
>
> *sigh*
Doing the first installation is doable with the DVD even on places with
little network. Libraries, schools, friends... Even on countries like
Cuba: someone brings the dvd or usb stick on a travel.

The problem is updates later, if you only have a modem or nothing.

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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Luca Beltrame
In reply to this post by Farhad Mohammadi Majd
Il giorno Fri, 21 Apr 2017 18:31:46 +0430
Farhad Mohammadi Majd <[hidden email]> ha scritto:

[...]
> https://spins.fedoraproject.org/

While I understand most of your concerns, I believe openSUSE should not
copy the bad parts of Fedora and Ubuntu. Why do we have to make
$new_iso for $new_DE?

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KDE Science supporter
GPG key ID: 6E1A4E79


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Re: QUESTION ABOUT Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
Anton Aylward composed on 2017-04-22 07:10 (UTC-0400):

> I've also seen other services that will burn and ship a distribution DVD for you.
> Do the still exist?

You must not see distrowatch.com very often:
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=opensuse
in the upper right has one such service, osdisc.com, but it's hardly the only
one. See also Amazon hosting LinuxDiscOnline. Another:
https://www.shoplinuxonline.com/
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 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: QUESTION ABOUT Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
Anton Aylward wrote:

> On 21/04/17 06:32 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> However, from personal experience, when I had low bandwidth (1Mbps) I
>> preferred to use this install method. Why? Because I could download
>> the DVD slowly, even if it took a week, then install a lot of
>> software in several computers without using Internet at all during
>> the install.
>
> There used to be "boxed" version of openSUSE.
> I know because the very first version I had was in this format.  it
> came with the --at that time CDs set, printed installation
> instructions and other documentation.
> Is that format still available?

Yes:  https://en.opensuse.org/Buy_openSUSE
http://www.opensourcepress.de/de/produkte/openSUSE-Leap-42.2/54033/978-3-95539-156-0



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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Stefan Seyfried
In reply to this post by Larry Stotler
Am 22.04.2017 um 02:52 schrieb Larry Stotler:
> This is the exact problem that SUSE Studio was created to fix.

Unfortunately, susestudio.com feels like abandonware.
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 public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." -- Richard Feynman
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Re: Please provide separate ISO image for each Desktop Environment

Tomáš Čech
In reply to this post by Farhad Mohammadi Majd
Hi Farhad,

as other people already said, you can use susestudio.com to make your
own ISO. As susestudio seems to be slowly dying, you still can use OBS
and kiwi to build ISOs by yourself. If you feel that it will be helpful
for others, go ahead, do it and tell others about that.

You have the tools, you have an idea and you have the time. If you
need help, ask for it.

When it's done we can have a look on download numbers (right?) and see
if there is interest in such thing.

My opinion on this is, that other solution which will help you cache
data locally is the right way, especially if you are able to share it
among more users.

Good luck.

S_W
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