Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

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Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Fred A. Miller
http://technocrat.net/d/2006/11/2/9945


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Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Darryl Gregorash
On 2006-11-03 02:56, Fred A. Miller wrote:
> http://technocrat.net/d/2006/11/2/9945
>
>
Well, if you believe any of this, particularly the crap about "use
MS-licenced or approved Linux, all else is illegal", then perhaps *you*
will be interested in the farmland east of Sydney (Australia).

Mickey can get a court order against me for using <name something>,
simply because Novell doesn't distribute it in SuSELinux??? Get real.

Of course, we do have a reasonable clue as to what is coming in this
<article/ranting/thing> as soon as we encounter this gem: "When we say
'commercial', it's interesting to note that there are really few
non-commercial users: people who only use their computer for a hobby.
Buying something on a web site, for example, is a commercial use."
Thus, ipso facto, whenever I use my computer for online banking, I am
using it for a commercial purpose.

What patent nonsense.

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Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

M Harris-2
On Friday 03 November 2006 03:22, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
> Well, if you believe any of this, particularly the crap about "use
> MS-licenced or approved Linux, all else is illegal", then perhaps *you*
> will be interested in the farmland east of Sydney (Australia).
     Darryl, you are gravely deceived....

     The article hits at the very heart and soul of this issue. Novell is
selling out... and everyone better watch out. Its time for a fork and run
folks...

     Actually, its time to make sure that Ubuntu has a cool graphical
installer very soon...

     





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SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
On Friday 03 November 2006 22:20, M Harris wrote:
>      Actually, its time to make sure that Ubuntu has a cool graphical
> installer very soon...

"YaST1 is gone, suse is dead, let's all move to Mandrake before it's too late"
"Novell buys suse, suse is dead, let's all move to Fedora before it's too
late"
"KDE isn't going to be in suse anymore, suse is dead, let's all move to
Kubuntu before it's too late"
"suse doesn't provide gnome updates, suse is dead, let's all move to Ubuntu
before it's too late"
"YaST2 Online Update is gone, suse is dead, let's all move to Ubuntu before
it's too late"

Honestly, why don't people look at things and think them through before they
start screaming.


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Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

M Harris-2
On Friday 03 November 2006 14:30, Anders Johansson wrote:
> "YaST2 Online Update is gone, suse is dead, let's all move to Ubuntu before
> it's too late"
>
> Honestly, why don't people look at things and think them through before
> they start screaming.
     Who is screaming?

     THIS IS SCREAMING....

      This is talking.....

     (this is whispering)

     (... get a clue)




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SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
On Friday 03 November 2006 22:35, M Harris wrote:
>      (... get a clue)

Given that my response was to a mail from you where you talked expertely about
things about which you know less than nothing, I don't think you should be
giving advice like that


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Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Tony Alfrey
In reply to this post by M Harris-2
M Harris wrote:

> On Friday 03 November 2006 14:30, Anders Johansson wrote:
>> "YaST2 Online Update is gone, suse is dead, let's all move to Ubuntu before
>> it's too late"
>>
>> Honestly, why don't people look at things and think them through before
>> they start screaming.
>      Who is screaming?
>
>      THIS IS SCREAMING....
>
>       This is talking.....
>
>      (this is whispering)
>
>      (... get a clue)
>

. . . . and you can add these little widgets ** if you really want to
*SCREAM*   ;-)




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Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

PerfectReign
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
On Friday 03 November 2006 12:30, Anders Johansson wrote:
> "YaST2 Online Update is gone, suse is dead, let's all move to Ubuntu before
> it's too late"
>
> Honestly, why don't people look at things and think them through before
> they start screaming.

...because it is much more cathartic to rant and rave.

"I didn't get a Lizard Sticker with SUSE 10.0 boxed.  SUSE is dead!"  :)


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www.perfectreign.com

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Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

kj-12
In reply to this post by M Harris-2
On Fri, 2006-11-03 at 15:20 -0600, M Harris wrote:
>      Actually, its time to make sure that Ubuntu has a cool graphical
> installer very soon...

Debian Etch already has.

Hans

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SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

M Harris-2
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
On Friday 03 November 2006 14:38, Anders Johansson wrote:
> Given that my response was to a mail from you where you talked expertely
> about things about which you know less than nothing
     ... look puppy,

     I was arguing against the evils of software patent law before you were a
gleam in your pappy's eye... so you don't think I know what I'm talking
about... fine... print out the thread(s) save them for, oh 1.5 years, and
then reread them... after the dust settles we'll just see who knew what they
were talking about.

     In the mean time... take a look at history... when has cross-licensing
ever been a good thing for anyone except the patent shark?


     *NEVER*




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Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Darryl Gregorash
In reply to this post by M Harris-2
On 2006-11-03 15:20, M Harris wrote:

>On Friday 03 November 2006 03:22, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
>  
>>Well, if you believe any of this, particularly the crap about "use
>>MS-licenced or approved Linux, all else is illegal", then perhaps *you*
>>will be interested in the farmland east of Sydney (Australia).
>>    
>     Darryl, you are gravely deceived....
>
>     The article hits at the very heart and soul of this issue. Novell is
>selling out... and everyone better watch out. Its time for a fork and run
>folks...
>  
Gimme a break, dude. From that web-dropping Fred posted:

"When we say "commercial", it's interesting to note that there are
really few non-commercial users: people who only use their computer for
a hobby. Buying something on a web site, for example, is a commercial
use. Most individuals use their computers in some aspect of making their
livelyhood."

Buying something in a store is not a commercial purpose, neither is
buying something online a commercial purpose -- unless, of course, you
happen to *be* a company or business making a purchase. "Use in
commerce" does not equal "commercial use." Even if you are
self-employed, potentially a grey area, there is a very easy test: is
the purchase for your own use, or is it for the purpose of earning income?

But we don't even need to go into all this, until and unless there is
some reason to do so.

>     Actually, its time to make sure that Ubuntu has a cool graphical
>installer very soon...
No, you cannot do that, because unless you do absolutely *no* online
banking, make absolutely *no* online purchases, do *not* use electronic
billing for your utilities and internet provider, you are probably a
"commercial user" of the software -- we know that, because the
web-dropping tells us so. Thus, if you switch to Ubuntu, Uncle Mickey
will sue you for some or another patent or licence infringement.

This assumes that Microsoft actually has any rights to assert. What
rights could they possibly have? Novell (or SCO, if you happen to
believe them) owns the Unix patents, not Microsoft, so Microsoft has no
rights to assert here -- only Novell (or SCO, if you happen to believe
them). However, for as long and as hard as SCO has been claiming
otherwise, not a single byte of Unix code has ever been demonstrated in
the Linux kernel, and Novell can hardly come in now, having claimed the
contrary for so long, by trying to assert any patent claims against the
Linux kernel.

I won't even comment on the drivel that suggests Novell *can* dump
patented code into the kernel, then assert patent rights over the
kernel, in any distribution, all in violation of the GPL. What Novell
would acquire by doing so is their own kernel, unique to Novell's brands
of Linux, most of which would be in violation of Torvalds's copyright.
Anything Novell ever contributed to the kernel would be removed, quickly
and quietly, and Novell would suddenly find itself in the midst of a
rather nasty copyright fight with Torvalds (and I think Linus would be
bankrolled by IBM and others, if that ever happened).

Next comes this:

"Even if everyone were to be protected regarding software that Novell
distributes, there's the tremendous collection of Free Software that
they don't distribute. A logical next move for Microsoft could be to
crack down on "unlicensed Linux", and "unlicensed Free Software", now
that it can tell the courts that there is a Microsoft-licensed path."

which translates into "if you use any OSS which Novell does not
distribute, you are in violation of your Microsoft licence." What
Microsoft licence? Even if such a licence does exist, how does the
Debian or Ubuntu user automatically fall under it? For that matter, how
do *I* fall under any Microsoft licence, if I purchase directly from
Novell, or from a Novell-authorized distributor (even Microsoft), or if
I download the ISO?

Just because Microsoft might sell me a copy of openSuSE in a box, does
not create any licence between me and Microsoft. I am not buying any
Microsoft product, it is a Novell product. Microsoft is merely a
distributor or dealer in the transaction. They have no rights to assert,
just as the bookstore has no rights to assert if you buy a book from
them, and then infringe the author's copyright. But that is not what the
web-dropping is saying: What the web-dropping is actually saying is
that, if I buy a Tom Clancy spy novel from the bookstore, then the
bookstore can sue me for not having bought a John le Carré novel instead
-- failure to purchase the latter being a violation of their rights.

So, please enlighten me in case I have made any error here: suppose that
Novell, under immense pressure from Microsoft, removes OO.o from
openSuSE, with KOffice becoming their only office suite (*), but suppose
that I, not liking KOffice at all, download and install OO.o anyway --
just what Microsoft licence have I violated here?

Just what Microsoft licence have *you*, the brand-new Ubuntu user,
violated by choosing to use OO.o on *your* system?


(*) Actually, it would probably be a very expensive, proprietary, MSWord
for Linux, but this is only fiction anyway, so I can use KOffice in my
example :-P

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Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Darryl Gregorash
In reply to this post by PerfectReign
On 2006-11-03 15:16, Kai Ponte wrote:

>On Friday 03 November 2006 12:30, Anders Johansson wrote:
>  
>>"YaST2 Online Update is gone, suse is dead, let's all move to Ubuntu before
>>it's too late"
>>
>>Honestly, why don't people look at things and think them through before
>>they start screaming.
>>    
>
>...because it is much more cathartic to rant and rave.
>
>"I didn't get a Lizard Sticker with SUSE 10.0 boxed.  SUSE is dead!"  :)
>
>
>  
Lizard Sticker with 10.0? Hell, I didn't get the -penguin- in the -7.3-
box.... SuSE is dead!!!@!

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SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
In reply to this post by M Harris-2
On Friday 03 November 2006 23:45, M Harris wrote:
> On Friday 03 November 2006 14:38, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > Given that my response was to a mail from you where you talked expertely
> > about things about which you know less than nothing
>
>      ... look puppy,
>
>      I was arguing against the evils of software patent law before you were
> a gleam in your pappy's eye...

My age? You now know how old I am? heh

> so you don't think I know what I'm talking
> about...

I know you don't know what you're talking about, because you're talking about
an agreement that hasn't been made fully public, and you're talking as if
you've read it.

> fine... print out the thread(s) save them for, oh 1.5 years, and
> then reread them... after the dust settles we'll just see who knew what
> they were talking about.
>
>      In the mean time... take a look at history... when has cross-licensing
> ever been a good thing for anyone except the patent shark?
>
>
>      *NEVER*

So it's probably good then that this deal wasn't a cross licensing agreement


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Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

M Harris-2
On Friday 03 November 2006 16:19, Anders Johansson wrote:
> >      In the mean time... take a look at history... when has
> > cross-licensing ever been a good thing for anyone except the patent
> > shark?
> >
> >
> >      *NEVER*
>
> So it's probably good then that this deal wasn't a cross licensing
> agreement
     Who are you trying to kid?

     That's all this deal is... and its been made as public as it gets...
upfront money will be exchanged to eliminate patent infringement (and law
suit) from either side... that's called cross licensing... and it spells very
bad tidings for a large share of Novell's user base, as well as the open
source movement in general. This is not a good thing. (quietly speaking)







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SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
On Saturday 04 November 2006 00:43, M Harris wrote:

> On Friday 03 November 2006 16:19, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > >      In the mean time... take a look at history... when has
> > > cross-licensing ever been a good thing for anyone except the patent
> > > shark?
> > >
> > >
> > >      *NEVER*
> >
> > So it's probably good then that this deal wasn't a cross licensing
> > agreement
>
>      Who are you trying to kid?
>
>      That's all this deal is... and its been made as public as it gets...
> upfront money will be exchanged to eliminate patent infringement (and law
> suit) from either side... that's called cross licensing... and it spells
> very bad tidings for a large share of Novell's user base, as well as the
> open source movement in general. This is not a good thing. (quietly
> speaking)

Except it's not. It's a promise not to sue.

If at some point in the future, there should be a patent claim against code in
the distribution, this deal means Novell customers and partners can be safe
in the knowledge there won't be any patent lawyers knocking on the door

It does not mean the infringing code won't have to be removed, it just means
Novell customers and partners won't suffer any legal consequences

And vice versa, of course. Novell has patents too, the deal cuts both ways


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Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

M Harris-2
In reply to this post by Darryl Gregorash
On Friday 03 November 2006 15:49, Darryl Gregorash wrote:
> So, please enlighten me in case I have made any error here:
     Ok..

     At this point in time M$ has not one word to say ... and that I believe
is the entire point of your entire previous post... and you're missing the
issue.

     The issue is the *future* of Novell-Mickey-Office-Linux... and the impact
the *cross licensing* in the *future* will have upon Suse, the Linux
community, and the open source movement in general.

     If Novell teams up with M$ then Suse in the *future* will no longer have
the trust of the open community. Do you honestly believe that Suse will honor
the GPL with M$ in their pocket? Well, if I were you (cause it won't be me)
when you load Suse 10.2 I would recommend that you read the license agreement
*very* carefully... cause I'm willing to bet that it changes dramatically...
and I am also willing to bet that M$ lawyers are going to help write it. Bye
bye Suse.

     On the other hand... Ubuntu is safe... for the moment. I thought I could
trust Novell. I was apparently quite mistaken about that... otherwise, I
think I know what I'm talking about here.





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SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Ed McCanless
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
Anders Johansson wrote:
> It does not mean the infringing code won't have to be removed, it just means
> Novell customers and partners won't suffer any legal consequences
>
> And vice versa, of course. Novell has patents too, the deal cuts both ways
>
>  

So, for clarification, you are saying that M$ can force the removal of
infringing code found in open source software, and the open source
community can force the removal of infringing code found in M$ software,
which is not easily examined, because it is not open source?

         -- ED --


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Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

M Harris-2
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
On Friday 03 November 2006 16:48, Anders Johansson wrote:
> If at some point in the future, there should be a patent claim against code
> in the distribution, this deal means Novell customers and partners can be
> safe in the knowledge there won't be any patent lawyers knocking on the
> door
     yeah... cross licensing...

     ... semantics, dude...

    A rose is a rose by ever other name or phrase... but I guarantee you that
the legal language of the "promise not to sue" will be a standard cross
licensing agreement... guaranteed.


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SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
In reply to this post by Ed McCanless
On Saturday 04 November 2006 00:05, Ed McCanless wrote:

> Anders Johansson wrote:
> > It does not mean the infringing code won't have to be removed, it just
> > means Novell customers and partners won't suffer any legal consequences
> >
> > And vice versa, of course. Novell has patents too, the deal cuts both
> > ways
>
> So, for clarification, you are saying that M$ can force the removal of
> infringing code found in open source software, and the open source
> community can force the removal of infringing code found in M$ software,
> which is not easily examined, because it is not open source?

There is a difference between copyright and patent. It's much easier to find
infringements of patents, because patents cover an idea, a way of doing
something, while a copyright covers an exact particular implementation

IF (and it's a big if) something is infringing, then it will have to be
removed. But this has always been true (it's the reason why mad and other mp3
packages were dropped. RealPlayer can stay because Real has a patent license)

What this deal means is if there is an infringement, or a suspected
infringement, the discussion is taken with Novell and/or Microsoft, not the
customers, so customers won't face enormous legal bills (witness Autozone,
DaimlerChrysler etc. Customers worry about that, not because they think the
legal claims are true but because the lawyers' bills are true)


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SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: SPAM: Re: Novell-Microsoft: What They Aren't Telling You

Bugzilla from andjoh@rydsbo.net
In reply to this post by M Harris-2
On Saturday 04 November 2006 01:11, M Harris wrote:

> On Friday 03 November 2006 16:48, Anders Johansson wrote:
> > If at some point in the future, there should be a patent claim against
> > code in the distribution, this deal means Novell customers and partners
> > can be safe in the knowledge there won't be any patent lawyers knocking
> > on the door
>
>      yeah... cross licensing...
>
>      ... semantics, dude...
>
>     A rose is a rose by ever other name or phrase... but I guarantee you
> that the legal language of the "promise not to sue" will be a standard
> cross licensing agreement... guaranteed.

And you would be wrong. There is no licensing going on.


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