Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

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Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Marco Calistri
Hello,

Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
the Microsoft version.

I.E. I get Mozilla Firefox 16.0.2 some days ago and Thunderbird 16.0.2
today for my Windows machines but nothing yet for openSUSE 12.2.

Thanks.

Regards
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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Bernhard Voelker
On 10/29/2012 10:22 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
> the Microsoft version.
>
> I.E. I get Mozilla Firefox 16.0.2 some days ago and Thunderbird 16.0.2
> today for my Windows machines but nothing yet for openSUSE 12.2.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards


That's because on Windows, Mozilla products auto-update themselves
directly from the Mozilla servers (or a mirror), while on Linux,
you have a software managing system ensuring the consistency of the
software installed/updated/removed on/from your PC.
And putting the update into such a package - that's the RPM format
for openSuSE and Redhat distro versions - has to be done by someone,
and then that updated version has to be reviewed and accepted by a
maintenance team.

You see, the new version passes more hands on Linux before it
reaches your PC than on Windows. OTOH, you can trust this model
better - ever did e.g. a graphics card driver update on Windows
and after that you had to re-install the OS? I've been there.

Or the other way round: instead of just trusting the Mozilla team
to publish an update for your PC, the update passes a whole lot of
openSuSE folks to guarantee that your PC will work fine afterwards.
And that for free! ;-)

Have a nice day,
Berny
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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Philipp Thomas-3
In reply to this post by Marco Calistri
On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:22:32 -0200, Marco Calistri
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
>the Microsoft version.

Very easy: The Updates for MS Win* are done by the Mozilla Foundation,
whereas the releases and updates for openSUSE are done by a volunteer
maintainer (because we do some things differently from upstream). Therefore
it sometimes takes a bit of time before they appear.

hth
Philipp
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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Wolfgang Rosenauer-4
Am 29.10.2012 22:41, schrieb Philipp Thomas:

> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:22:32 -0200, Marco Calistri
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
>> the Microsoft version.
>
> Very easy: The Updates for MS Win* are done by the Mozilla Foundation,
> whereas the releases and updates for openSUSE are done by a volunteer
> maintainer (because we do some things differently from upstream). Therefore
> it sometimes takes a bit of time before they appear.

Sounds like the delay is caused by the volunteer? ;-)

No, in fact it's like the following:
You get Mozilla updates usually at the same time for openSUSE as you get
it from Mozilla.org. Sometimes a bit earlier from openSUSE, sometimes a
bit later (within some hours). The thing is you get them only from the
optional mozilla repository at that time.
What is actually causing the real delay until the updates are available
from within the official update channel is that the final patchset needs
information about the vulnerabilities and that information is only
available from Mozilla.org at release time.
So now time is counting:
- build new packages with that information in the changelog (as needed
by the policies)
- submit them for maintenance update
- maintenance team putting together the patchinfo
- wait until everything is built
- release it

The above causes the delay.

Then we have sometimes have the situation that Mozilla pulls a version
and provides a new one (like 16.0.1). That decision happened just right
before 16.0 was released for openSUSE and we rightfully skipped it,
adding another roundtrip delay to the release of 16.0.1.


Wolfgang


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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Marco Calistri
In reply to this post by Bernhard Voelker
Il 29/10/2012 19:36, Bernhard Voelker ha scritto:

> On 10/29/2012 10:22 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
>> the Microsoft version.
>>
>> I.E. I get Mozilla Firefox 16.0.2 some days ago and Thunderbird 16.0.2
>> today for my Windows machines but nothing yet for openSUSE 12.2.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Regards
>
>
> That's because on Windows, Mozilla products auto-update themselves
> directly from the Mozilla servers (or a mirror), while on Linux,
> you have a software managing system ensuring the consistency of the
> software installed/updated/removed on/from your PC.
> And putting the update into such a package - that's the RPM format
> for openSuSE and Redhat distro versions - has to be done by someone,
> and then that updated version has to be reviewed and accepted by a
> maintenance team.
>
> You see, the new version passes more hands on Linux before it
> reaches your PC than on Windows. OTOH, you can trust this model
> better - ever did e.g. a graphics card driver update on Windows
> and after that you had to re-install the OS? I've been there.
>
> Or the other way round: instead of just trusting the Mozilla team
> to publish an update for your PC, the update passes a whole lot of
> openSuSE folks to guarantee that your PC will work fine afterwards.
> And that for free! ;-)
>
> Have a nice day,
> Berny
>
Berny,

I appreciated your reply it make sense!

Tks,

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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Marco Calistri
In reply to this post by Philipp Thomas-3
Il 29/10/2012 19:41, Philipp Thomas ha scritto:

> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:22:32 -0200, Marco Calistri
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
>> the Microsoft version.
>
> Very easy: The Updates for MS Win* are done by the Mozilla Foundation,
> whereas the releases and updates for openSUSE are done by a volunteer
> maintainer (because we do some things differently from upstream). Therefore
> it sometimes takes a bit of time before they appear.
>
> hth
> Philipp
>
Phillip,

As I replied to Berny,

I fully understood the explanation and it really makes sense.

Thanks.

Regards,
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opensuse 12.2 (Mantis) 64 bit - Kernel 3.4.11-2.16-desktop Gnome 3.4.2
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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Marco Calistri
In reply to this post by Wolfgang Rosenauer-4
Il 29/10/2012 19:52, Wolfgang Rosenauer ha scritto:

> Am 29.10.2012 22:41, schrieb Philipp Thomas:
>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2012 19:22:32 -0200, Marco Calistri
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
>>> the Microsoft version.
>>
>> Very easy: The Updates for MS Win* are done by the Mozilla Foundation,
>> whereas the releases and updates for openSUSE are done by a volunteer
>> maintainer (because we do some things differently from upstream). Therefore
>> it sometimes takes a bit of time before they appear.
>
> Sounds like the delay is caused by the volunteer? ;-)
>
> No, in fact it's like the following:
> You get Mozilla updates usually at the same time for openSUSE as you get
> it from Mozilla.org. Sometimes a bit earlier from openSUSE, sometimes a
> bit later (within some hours). The thing is you get them only from the
> optional mozilla repository at that time.
> What is actually causing the real delay until the updates are available
> from within the official update channel is that the final patchset needs
> information about the vulnerabilities and that information is only
> available from Mozilla.org at release time.
> So now time is counting:
> - build new packages with that information in the changelog (as needed
> by the policies)
> - submit them for maintenance update
> - maintenance team putting together the patchinfo
> - wait until everything is built
> - release it
>
> The above causes the delay.
>
> Then we have sometimes have the situation that Mozilla pulls a version
> and provides a new one (like 16.0.1). That decision happened just right
> before 16.0 was released for openSUSE and we rightfully skipped it,
> adding another roundtrip delay to the release of 16.0.1.
>
>
> Wolfgang
>

Thank you Wolfgang,

Sorry if my question had underestimated the job of Linux packaging team.

I think that two or more days of delay is worth and completely acceptable.


Regards,

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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by Marco Calistri
On 30/10/12 08:22, Marco Calistri wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
> the Microsoft version.
>
> I.E. I get Mozilla Firefox 16.0.2 some days ago and Thunderbird 16.0.2
> today for my Windows machines but nothing yet for openSUSE 12.2.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Regards

If you look in YasT and find the entry for Firefox in the list of files
look at the Versions available and you will see - provided you have the
Mozilla community repo selected and enabled - that 16.02 is available
for installation. Simply click on the button against the appropriate
entry (64 or i586) and install it.

BC

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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Marcus Meissner
On Tue, Oct 30, 2012 at 02:34:49PM +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:

> On 30/10/12 08:22, Marco Calistri wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
>> the Microsoft version.
>>
>> I.E. I get Mozilla Firefox 16.0.2 some days ago and Thunderbird 16.0.2
>> today for my Windows machines but nothing yet for openSUSE 12.2.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Regards
>
> If you look in YasT and find the entry for Firefox in the list of files
> look at the Versions available and you will see - provided you have the
> Mozilla community repo selected and enabled - that 16.02 is available for
> installation. Simply click on the button against the appropriate entry (64
> or i586) and install it.

I have released the updates yesterday.

We do some verification that they actually work, so that takes a bit of time ;)

Ciao, Marcus
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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Werner Flamme-2
In reply to this post by Marco Calistri
Marco Calistri [29.10.2012 23:58]:

> Il 29/10/2012 19:36, Bernhard Voelker ha scritto:
>> On 10/29/2012 10:22 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
>>> the Microsoft version.
>>>
>>> I.E. I get Mozilla Firefox 16.0.2 some days ago and Thunderbird 16.0.2
>>> today for my Windows machines but nothing yet for openSUSE 12.2.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>
>>
>> That's because on Windows, Mozilla products auto-update themselves
>> directly from the Mozilla servers (or a mirror), while on Linux,
>> you have a software managing system ensuring the consistency of the
>> software installed/updated/removed on/from your PC.
>> And putting the update into such a package - that's the RPM format
>> for openSuSE and Redhat distro versions - has to be done by someone,
>> and then that updated version has to be reviewed and accepted by a
>> maintenance team.
>>
>> You see, the new version passes more hands on Linux before it
>> reaches your PC than on Windows. OTOH, you can trust this model
>> better - ever did e.g. a graphics card driver update on Windows
>> and after that you had to re-install the OS? I've been there.
>>
>> Or the other way round: instead of just trusting the Mozilla team
>> to publish an update for your PC, the update passes a whole lot of
>> openSuSE folks to guarantee that your PC will work fine afterwards.
>> And that for free! ;-)
>>
>> Have a nice day,
>> Berny
>>
> Berny,
>
> I appreciated your reply it make sense!
>

You can achieve the same behaviour for Linux when you download TB and FF
from the Mozilla web sites (as you do on Windoze) and install them as a
user inside your home directory. So you do not need to involve the
software management of the system, and you get the updates directly from
Mozilla.

Werner

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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Wolfgang Rosenauer-4
Am 30.10.2012 14:33, schrieb Werner Flamme:

> Marco Calistri [29.10.2012 23:58]:
>> Il 29/10/2012 19:36, Bernhard Voelker ha scritto:
>>> On 10/29/2012 10:22 PM, Marco Calistri wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> Wonder why Mozilla updates are usually arriving delayed in comparison to
>>>> the Microsoft version.
>>>>
>>>> I.E. I get Mozilla Firefox 16.0.2 some days ago and Thunderbird 16.0.2
>>>> today for my Windows machines but nothing yet for openSUSE 12.2.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>> That's because on Windows, Mozilla products auto-update themselves
>>> directly from the Mozilla servers (or a mirror), while on Linux,
>>> you have a software managing system ensuring the consistency of the
>>> software installed/updated/removed on/from your PC.
>>> And putting the update into such a package - that's the RPM format
>>> for openSuSE and Redhat distro versions - has to be done by someone,
>>> and then that updated version has to be reviewed and accepted by a
>>> maintenance team.
>>>
>>> You see, the new version passes more hands on Linux before it
>>> reaches your PC than on Windows. OTOH, you can trust this model
>>> better - ever did e.g. a graphics card driver update on Windows
>>> and after that you had to re-install the OS? I've been there.
>>>
>>> Or the other way round: instead of just trusting the Mozilla team
>>> to publish an update for your PC, the update passes a whole lot of
>>> openSuSE folks to guarantee that your PC will work fine afterwards.
>>> And that for free! ;-)
>>>
>>> Have a nice day,
>>> Berny
>>>
>> Berny,
>>
>> I appreciated your reply it make sense!
>>
>
> You can achieve the same behaviour for Linux when you download TB and FF
> from the Mozilla web sites (as you do on Windoze) and install them as a
> user inside your home directory. So you do not need to involve the
> software management of the system, and you get the updates directly from
> Mozilla.

And just for completeness in that case you do not get a few extra
features we have in Firefox to improve integration into openSUSE.


Wolfgang

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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Basil Chupin-2
On 31/10/12 00:48, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
> Am 30.10.2012 14:33, schrieb Werner Flamme:
>> You can achieve the same behaviour for Linux when you download TB and FF
>> from the Mozilla web sites (as you do on Windoze) and install them as a
>> user inside your home directory. So you do not need to involve the
>> software management of the system, and you get the updates directly from
>> Mozilla.
> And just for completeness in that case you do not get a few extra
> features we have in Firefox to improve integration into openSUSE.

And these extra features are, please.....?

BC


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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Patrick Shanahan-2
* Basil Chupin <[hidden email]> [10-30-12 10:19]:

> On 31/10/12 00:48, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
> >Am 30.10.2012 14:33, schrieb Werner Flamme:
> >>You can achieve the same behaviour for Linux when you download TB and FF
> >>from the Mozilla web sites (as you do on Windoze) and install them as a
> >>user inside your home directory. So you do not need to involve the
> >>software management of the system, and you get the updates directly from
> >>Mozilla.
> >And just for completeness in that case you do not get a few extra
> >features we have in Firefox to improve integration into openSUSE.
>
> And these extra features are, please.....?

rpm -q --changelog MozillaFirefox |less

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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Wolfgang Rosenauer-4
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
Am 30.10.2012 15:18, schrieb Basil Chupin:

> On 31/10/12 00:48, Wolfgang Rosenauer wrote:
>> Am 30.10.2012 14:33, schrieb Werner Flamme:
>>> You can achieve the same behaviour for Linux when you download TB and FF
>>> from the Mozilla web sites (as you do on Windoze) and install them as a
>>> user inside your home directory. So you do not need to involve the
>>> software management of the system, and you get the updates directly from
>>> Mozilla.
>> And just for completeness in that case you do not get a few extra
>> features we have in Firefox to improve integration into openSUSE.
>
> And these extra features are, please.....?

- libproxy support
- Don't use localized Downloads unless XDG is set up
- more sizes of FF icons for different sizes of menus
- a readable awesomebar for dark themes
- basic KDE integration
- FF UI language following system user's locale
- FF package for PPC ;-)
- if there are multiple plugins for one content type you can set a pref
  which one to use
- you can set up Firefox to use a shared NSS/certificate database
- support for some media types through GStreamer
- working startup notification
- use gio instead of obsolete gnomevfs


Wolfgang

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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Felix Miata-3
On 2012-10-30 15:54 (GMT+0100) Wolfgang Rosenauer composed:

>...

Broken SeaMonkey 2.14 Address Book is still on mirrors 2 weeks after upstream
2.14.1 with fixed Address Book. :-(
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Re: Mozilla updates arriving delayed on openSUSE

Wolfgang Rosenauer-4
Am 2012-12-18 05:44, schrieb Felix Miata:
> On 2012-10-30 15:54 (GMT+0100) Wolfgang Rosenauer composed:
>
> Broken SeaMonkey 2.14 Address Book is still on mirrors 2 weeks after
> upstream 2.14.1 with fixed Address Book. :-(

There never was a promise to update to the latest and greatest in the
official openSUSE update channel, right?
The updates are basically done for security reasons and there is no
security issue fixed with the latest patch level update as far as I know
and therefore this has been skipped up to now since there also was no
single request (where I monitor things) to do an update or a bugreport
related to a regression in latest major update.
If you want the latest and greatest you usually can get that from the
mozilla repo and not the official update repo.

In that case it also would have been enough to open a bugreport since I
did not know up to your mail that the "address book is broken" since I
cannot know everything.
Basically if unsure please open bugreports if you need updates.


Wolfgang
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