LfL: HTML Version Available

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LfL: HTML Version Available

Thomas Schraitle-2
Hi,

as the subject says: There is now a HTML version of Lessons for Lizards
available:

  http://forgeftp.novell.com/lfl/.html/

I don't consider the contents nor the layout as finished. See the Jobs
description page how *you* can contribute:

  http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lfl/Jobs


Have fun and happy new year, :-)
Tom

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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

jdd@dodin.org
Thomas Schraitle wrote:

> Hi,
>
> as the subject says: There is now a HTML version of Lessons for Lizards
> available:
>
>   http://forgeftp.novell.com/lfl/.html/
>
> I don't consider the contents nor the layout as finished. See the Jobs
> description page how *you* can contribute:
>
>   http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lfl/Jobs
>
>
> Have fun and happy new year, :-)
> Tom
>

I didn't follow LfL very close by lack of time, but find the
thing quite interesting.

I wonder how one can participate occasionally (that is not
in any job listed :-), for example giving some clues or some
debugging.

For example, I just tried the "usb boot device" page and
found some (little) lacks and tried it fully to see one of
my mother board don't boot, when an other do.

so we need some way to exchange from editors to readers and
vice-versa.

We already discussed this for a very long time on the LDP
mailing list, so I know the question is hard to fix.

In our system I would propose the following solution:

* open a (media) wiki - or a special namespace on opensuse one.

* write a page on the wiki for any LfL subject. Make this
page read only (writing only for the author). So writing the
page should be quite simple (writing a docbook backend to
mediawiki, or simply slightly modifying the html display).

* open only to the writing the discussion page. Advertise
the "+" use for better reading (eventually edit the style sheet)

as so, the author of the page could edit -or don't at his
will- the page. The readers could add some comments, usefull
but may be not worth writing to a paper book.

as an example, like previously said, the author of the usb
boot page could add a "cd sylinux... before cp msb.bin...,
think it better _not_ to use a valid /dev/sdX name, just in
case the user makes a copy paste including the final <RC> of
the line (easy to do :-(). But saying that this don't works
with the ASUS A7N8X mobo may not be worth writing in the
core of the article, but worth to be said on the wiki...

jdd

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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

Rebecca Walter
On Friday 29 December 2006 18:28, jdd wrote:

> Thomas Schraitle wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > as the subject says: There is now a HTML version of Lessons for Lizards
> > available:
> >
> >   http://forgeftp.novell.com/lfl/.html/
> >
> > I don't consider the contents nor the layout as finished. See the Jobs
> > description page how *you* can contribute:
> >
> >   http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lfl/Jobs
> >
> >
> > Have fun and happy new year, :-)
> > Tom
>
> I didn't follow LfL very close by lack of time, but find the
> thing quite interesting.
>
> I wonder how one can participate occasionally (that is not
> in any job listed :-), for example giving some clues or some
> debugging.


I didn't get around to adding the tester job.  But it is very needed.  There
are two easy ways you can do this:

1) E-mail the author.  If I remember correctly, the USB one is Tom's so you
can e-mail [hidden email]

2) Probably the better choice. Add comments in the file.  Send e-mail to get
signed up for the project.  Check out the file.  Add comments in remark tags.  
Start the comment with your openSUSE username so the author knows who it is
from.  Stick them in the beginning or end of a para so it doesn't cause extra
line breaks (although toms might have eliminated this issue).  Write whatever
you want to say to the author.  Check in the changed file with a commit
message something like "added remarks from testing".

We use the second method (remarks) a lot internally in our review process when
developing files and it works really well. We can give each other feedback
and note when a certain bit of info is still in a NEEDINFO state when waiting
for developer feedback.  More details about our remark "codes" are in the
style guide.

It is possible to build a version of the book with visible remarks.  So they
can be visible in a review or editing state but not visible for a final
product.  It is a pretty nifty tool.  If you use the <!-- --> style comments,
they can't be made visible.  We mostly only use those for layout-related
changes anymore.
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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

jdd@dodin.org
Rebecca Walter wrote:

> I didn't get around to adding the tester job.  But it is very needed.  There
> are two easy ways you can do this:
>
> 1) E-mail the author.  If I remember correctly, the USB one is Tom's so you
> can e-mail [hidden email]

my subject, here is casual user, as most reader will be.
There is a need of some sort of comment writing without
having to subscribe (no more than on the openSUSE wiki).

usually there are two kind of concern for the user: "is this
problem already known?", "can I drop the comment in a matter
of minutes", and the fear of disturbing the author unusefully.

I know (as a LDP author) that books are not reviewed very
often and a mail can be lost on the way :-(

I don't know how wikibooks handle the thing:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page

jdd


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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

Thomas Schraitle-2
Hi jdd,

On Saturday 30 December 2006 12:44, jdd wrote:

> Rebecca Walter wrote:
> > I didn't get around to adding the tester job.  But it is very needed.
> >  There are two easy ways you can do this:
> >
> > 1) E-mail the author.  If I remember correctly, the USB one is Tom's
> > so you can e-mail [hidden email]
>
> my subject, here is casual user, as most reader will be.
> There is a need of some sort of comment writing without
> having to subscribe (no more than on the openSUSE wiki).

That's a good question. Would it help to create a Wiki page to write quick
comments, suggestions, wishes, etc.? This can then be edited from time to
time to remove old entries.


> usually there are two kind of concern for the user: "is this
> problem already known?",

You can write and ask on this mailinglist. :)


> "can I drop the comment in a matter
> of minutes", and the fear of disturbing the author unusefully.

Again, you can always ask on this mailinglist or ask the author(s)
directly. From my experience authors would *love* to get mails that at
least someone has read their text. :)


> I know (as a LDP author) that books are not reviewed very
> often and a mail can be lost on the way :-(

Right, but you can always write to opensuse-doc. The mails are archived,
nothing is lost. :)


> I don't know how wikibooks handle the thing:
>
> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page

From my perspective, the problems are still the same, be it with Wiki or
with DocBook XML. If you want to write good texts (who don't want this?)
your text will have to go through several steps: Writing, proofreading,
testing, commenting, translating etc. needs time and energy. I don't want
to go into the details of comparing Wiki with DocBook but the tasks are
roughly the same.



Tom

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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

jdd@dodin.org
Thomas Schraitle wrote:

> Right, but you can always write to opensuse-doc. The mails are archived,
> nothing is lost. :)

true. This very list could be used as an archive. This would
need a consistent numbering (may be this is not exactly the
good word: I mean each paragraph with it own unique number,
for reference)

>
>
>> I don't know how wikibooks handle the thing:
>>
>> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> From my perspective, the problems are still the same, be it with Wiki or
> with DocBook XML.


again, not about writing the core text, but about
interaction with the reader.

for example, sometime ago, there where an article about
depth of field (photography). The discussion page of that
article was filled with complains from the initial author
not liking the edits from other users.

right these days there was a discussion on the same topic on
the ldp discussion list: what about the authorship of a
HOWTO writtent down on a wiki.

the problem is similar, there are no really satisfactory
solution.

using this very mailing-list and eventually a wiki page is
pretty good :-)

happy new year, it's very late to work :-))
jdd


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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

Thomas Schraitle-2
Hi,

On Saturday 30 December 2006 19:42, jdd wrote:

> [...]
> >> I don't know how wikibooks handle the thing:
> >>
> >> http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Main_Page
> >
> > From my perspective, the problems are still the same, be it with Wiki
> > or with DocBook XML.
>
> again, not about writing the core text, but about
> interaction with the reader.

Ok, jdd, what do you think about this page:

 http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lfl/Feedback

With this page everybody can leave comments, wishes or general feedback.
It's even linked from the main page. :)


> [...Similar LDP problems...]
> the problem is similar, there are no really satisfactory
> solution.

Right. Of course, we all would like to see people contributing with text,
corrections, etc. in DocBook-XML but I fear that's a bit unrealistic for
simple typos. It's seems that we don't solve the problem this year. If
nobody has a good solution I fear we will have to live with that, at
least for the moment.


> using this very mailing-list and eventually a wiki page is
> pretty good :-)

Yes, see the above page.


> happy new year, it's very late to work :-))
> jdd

Yes, very true. Happy new year! :-))

Bye,
Tom

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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

jdd@dodin.org
Thomas Schraitle wrote:

> Ok, jdd, what do you think about this page:
>
>  http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lfl/Feedback
>
> With this page everybody can leave comments, wishes or general feedback.
> It's even linked from the main page. :)

it's a very good starting point as it's easy to forget it
(if no success) or extend it (if success)

just a comment: is there a reason not to make it on the
openSUSE wiki?

thanks
jdd

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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

Thomas Schraitle-2
Hi,

On Sunday 31 December 2006 10:30, jdd wrote:

> Thomas Schraitle wrote:
> > Ok, jdd, what do you think about this page:
> >
> >  http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Lfl/Feedback
> >
> > With this page everybody can leave comments, wishes or general
> > feedback. It's even linked from the main page. :)
>
> it's a very good starting point as it's easy to forget it
> (if no success) or extend it (if success)

:-)


> just a comment: is there a reason not to make it on the
> openSUSE wiki?

As far as I remember it seems to us more "natural" to create it there.
Novellforge has all these nice little Custom Tags[1] that you can place
on your Wiki page. The "Activity" section on the main page is one
example. I don't think this is possible on openSUSE Wiki.


Tom

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[1] http://developer.novell.com/wiki/index.php/Help:Custom_Tags

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Re: LfL: HTML Version Available

Rebecca Walter
In reply to this post by jdd@dodin.org

> it's a very good starting point as it's easy to forget it
> (if no success) or extend it (if success)
>
> just a comment: is there a reason not to make it on the
> openSUSE wiki?

The project is on Forge so we have SVN, etc.  It is easiest for everyone if
everything is in the same place.  The login you need to use is the same--you
don't have to create a new account.  Just login with your opensuse username
and password.
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