Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list,

Axel Braun-2
Am Sonntag, 18. Juni 2017, 20:04:26 CEST schrieb Larx:
> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 19:51 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
> >
> > A mailing list is the same thing anywhere. The interface is your mail
> > client.
>
> Yes, and there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at
> any forum.

A mailing list is a mailing list, and a forum is a forum. Both have pros and
cons, and depending on your personal preference, you like the one or the other
more.

Although Email - like Newsgroups - may sound old fashioned, they still have
advantages over forums - low bandwidth requirements, the option to download
mails and work offline (yes, I'm travelling every now and then), to apply
filters....just to mention some.

On the mailing list archive, fully agree, this could be made more user
friendly.

> > And about the bugzilla account, there is one link somewhere that
> > doesn't
> > ask that much. But I don't remember it.
>
> Novells bugzilla is the worst I have ever encountered. And I contribute
> to quite a few. Until I have browsed through all the convoluted options
> available there, I usually lose the patience to file a bug.

Hm, maybe I worked too long with this, but thats not an issue for me. If you
complain about bugzilla, you probably never user legacy solutions, like BMC
Remedy...which is really a PITA
 
Cheers
Axel
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Adam Majer
In reply to this post by Adam Majer
On 06/19/2017 09:21 AM, Adam Majer wrote:
> Anyway, back to your Qt issues. Without at least a backtrace, we can all
> just be guessing at the problem. Is it possible for you to get a
> backtrace of the crash?

OK, there is a bugreport for this now.

    https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820

So someone should look at this now I guess. Seems there is something
specific to the hardware and the plugin you've identified ;)

Cheers,
Adam
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Werner Flamme
In reply to this post by Larx
Larx [19.06.2017 05:16]:

> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 15:03 -0400 schrieb Felix Miata:
>> Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200):
>> .
>>>
>>> See
>>> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
>> .
>> No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are
>> (supposedly) openSUSE users:
>> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
>>  
>
> Could you please elaborate more? I don't understand that. I filed a bug
> at bugzilla.opensuse.org (with all its strange registration process,
> which indeed does not really look like an OSS community). I nowhere
> found a hint that as a openSUSE user I have to go elsewhere, I just
> followed the links. What is the difference between the links, the
> content seems pretty much the same.
Yes, this is a bit strange sometimes. This also happened to me several
times. The Bugilla is the same, only that SLE bugs are often (normally?)
not visible for opensuse.org users but for those who bought SLE. The
data in the background seems to be the same.

Since your bug is openly accessable, it should not make a difference
which URL you use.

> (For me this just proves my point that the openSUSE infrastructure
> leaves a lot to be improved.)

Everything can be improved. It's just a matter of resources and priority.

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Richard Brown
In reply to this post by Andrei Borzenkov
On 19 June 2017 at 08:09, Andrei Borzenkov <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr
>>> Von: Larx <[hidden email]>
> ...
>>>
>>> Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.
>> https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/
>
> Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this
> information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you
> really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE
> media to find it?


Is this a joke? Assuming yes, then I have a joke too :)

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=openSUSE+Infrastructure

First hit: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Infrastructure_policy
(Mentions the Heroes)

Second hit: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes (Describes them in detail)

There is plenty of non archived documentation regarding the openSUSE Heroes

Perhaps you don't like reading, this is the year 2017 after all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSXniKW_q9Q

There has been so much information about, from, surrounding, and
regarding our awesome openSUSE Heroes frankly anyone claiming they've
never heard about them might as well wear a sign saying "I don't pay
much attention to what's going on in the openSUSE Project"

And that's alright, everyone doesn't need to pay attention to
everything, all this information is still out there on the wiki, and
youtube, and news.o.o, and lists.o.o, precisely because we don't
expect everyone to pay attention to everything.

But it sure makes Larx and your criticisms rather amusing, or if
they're not intended as jokes, rather stupid.
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Re: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Michal Suchánek
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 00:40:55 -0400
Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Larx composed on 2017-06-19 06:06 (UTC+0200):
>
> > That argument sounds really 90ies, sorry to say that. Any forum
> > since dozens of years is customable, you subscribe only to the
> > subjects you like, you can get tailor made email digests etc..  
> Email needs to be customized, if at all, once only.
>
> Each forum has different interfaces for customizing to learn, and
> *must* be separately customized, without exception, as they're all
> designed for people who enjoy 85th percentile or better vision, using
> little browser windows that only fill 1/3 or less of a screen. The
> need often repeats as each's admin sees fit so replace its "worn" or
> "obsolete" styles with "new and improved" styles that reduce its
> site's usability, and obsolete existing ad blocker settings.

Further, state of the art archival and filtering techniques for e-mail
allow you to locate the topics you are interested in after the fact.

In every single forum I have tried to use the search function is almost
useless, due to carelessnes or bad web interface people tend to post to
different topics than intended, and without direct access to the
database holding the forum posts you are left with big useless pile of
text - which you cannot even see at once due to the web interface
limiting you to 'pages' of posts.

So in my opinion the forums are by far the least useful method of
communication in use. People try to use them because they do not know
anything better but that's completely backwards.

Thanks

Michal
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Larx
Larx wrote:

> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 19:51 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>
>> A mailing list is the same thing anywhere. The interface is your mail
>> client.
>
> Yes, and there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at
> any forum.

The main problem is - they're all different and in different places.
With email or a newsreader, all the lists are in one place with one
interface.  



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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list,

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Axel Braun-2
Axel Braun wrote:

> On the mailing list archive, fully agree, this could be made more user
> friendly.

Please post your suggestions.  Or even open a ticket at
https://progress.opensuse.org/



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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Andrei Borzenkov
Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr
>>> Von: Larx <[hidden email]>
> ...
>>>
>>> Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it
>>> is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to
>>> contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.
>> https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/
>
> Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this
> information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you
> really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE
> media to find it?

We don't expect every newcomer to immediately want to join the admin
team, no.  It could probably be better advertised though.


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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Larx
On 2017-06-18 20:04, Larx wrote:
> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 19:51 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>  
>> A mailing list is the same thing anywhere. The interface is your mail
>> client.
>
> Yes, and there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at
> any forum.

Then why don't you use the forum?

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Carlos E. R.-4
In reply to this post by Adam Majer
On 2017-06-19 09:44, Adam Majer wrote:

> On 06/19/2017 09:21 AM, Adam Majer wrote:
>> Anyway, back to your Qt issues. Without at least a backtrace, we can all
>> just be guessing at the problem. Is it possible for you to get a
>> backtrace of the crash?
>
> OK, there is a bugreport for this now.
>
>     https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
>
> So someone should look at this now I guess. Seems there is something
> specific to the hardware and the plugin you've identified ;)
But placing this info under this subject line, it will not be seen ;-P

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink
In reply to this post by Andrei Borzenkov
Op maandag 19 juni 2017 08:09:17 CEST schreef Andrei Borzenkov:

> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch
>
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr
> >> Von: Larx <[hidden email]>
>
> ...
>
> >> Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is
> >> not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to
> >> contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.>
> > https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/
>
> Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this
> information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you
> really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE
> media to find it?

News about the openSUSE heroes was not just on the news ticker. It was
propagated across social media, other media wrote about it, and the Heroes got
their share of attention at the openSUSE Conference. If I perform a google
search for "opensuse infrastructure" the first hit that shows is the openSUSE
Heroes page.

--
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openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team
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Bugzilla procedure [Was: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup]

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Larx
On 2017-06-19 05:16, Larx wrote:

> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 15:03 -0400 schrieb Felix Miata:
>> Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200):
>> .
>>>
>>> See
>>> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
>> .
>> No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are
>> (supposedly) openSUSE users:
>> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
>>  
>
> Could you please elaborate more? I don't understand that. I filed a bug
> at bugzilla.opensuse.org (with all its strange registration process,
> which indeed does not really look like an OSS community). I nowhere
> found a hint that as a openSUSE user I have to go elsewhere, I just
> followed the links. What is the difference between the links, the
> content seems pretty much the same.
Our bugzilla system has several "faces". There is one for openSUSE,
another for SLE... They are basically the same, but have different
colours and probably different options for entering a bug.


> (For me this just proves my point that the openSUSE infrastructure
> leaves a lot to be improved.)

Well, once you get used to things we don't use the long road anymore,
but jump direct to the place - meaning that we seasoned users do not see
the route you took or the problems you found. You are in a better
position than us to report those problems.

Let me see. You went here:

https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/index.cgi

then you hit login. This takes you to a Microfocus page. I suppose that
here you clicked on "create an account", which takes you to a SUSE page.

I suppose that going through those domain changes is confusing.


It asks for:

First Name*
Last Name*
Company*                     [] I am not associated with a company
Country*
Email Address*

and login info:



Username*
Password*
Repeat Password*

Security Question*
Security Answer*
Repeat Security Answer*


I don't find those questions invasive, but as I did not go any further I
don't know if there are more questions ahead.


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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Simon Lees-3
In reply to this post by Andrei Borzenkov


On 19/06/17 15:39, Andrei Borzenkov wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr
>>> Von: Larx <[hidden email]>
> ...
>>>
>>> Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.
>> https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/
>
> Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this
> information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you
> really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE
> media to find it?
>
I have seen it mentioned many times across different email threads
including board updates, talks at conferences ...  there has been no
shortage of advertisement / promotion for this in the last year, far
more then just one news post anyway.

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list,

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Axel Braun-2
On 19/06/17 03:34 AM, Axel Braun wrote:
>
> On the mailing list archive, fully agree, this could be made more user
> friendly.

At the very least, the 'advanced' search is not doing a good job!

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Re: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
On 19/06/17 12:40 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
> Larx composed on 2017-06-19 06:06 (UTC+0200):
>
>> That argument sounds really 90ies, sorry to say that. Any forum since dozens
>> of years is customable, you subscribe only to the subjects you like, you can
>> get tailor made email digests etc..
> Email needs to be customized, if at all, once only.

Indeed!

If I decide to plonk! some Furby  using my mail filters then said Furby is
plonk!ed on all the mailing lists I subscribe to, all in one go.

To do that on a web based forum system its step-and-repeat for each one, and if,
perhaps, I join a new of follow a new topic on G+ then I have to do it all over
again.

> Each forum has different interfaces for customizing to learn, and *must* be
> separately customized, without exception, as they're all designed for people who
> enjoy 85th percentile or better vision, using little browser windows that only
> fill 1/3 or less of a screen. The need often repeats as each's admin sees fit so
> replace its "worn" or "obsolete" styles with "new and improved" styles that
> reduce its site's usability, and obsolete existing ad blocker settings.

It's bad enough when I'm out and about -- and with a cap on my limited bandwidth
-- trying to read web sites on the phone.  At least some, wikipedia for example,
has a 'mobile' mode that dispenses with the bandwidth consuming eye candy.

often enough, email is lower bandwidth, and with IMAP I can avoid downloading
the bodies for messages I don't want to see.

The downside to email in the 21st century is the idiots who insist on sending
HTML email with decorations, attachments, 'eye candy'.  All gratuitous.

At least on my PC I can set "show text only" in Thunderbird, but my email
readers on my phone aren't quite sophisticated (read 'user oriented') enough.
Developers for the mobile market are still hung up on graphics.

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list,

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
Anton Aylward wrote:

> On 19/06/17 03:34 AM, Axel Braun wrote:
>>
>> On the mailing list archive, fully agree, this could be made more
>> user friendly.
>
> At the very least, the 'advanced' search is not doing a good job!


https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/4314
https://progress.opensuse.org/issues/17604



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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
On 19/06/17 06:11 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2017-06-18 20:04, Larx wrote:
>> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 19:51 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>>>  
>>> A mailing list is the same thing anywhere. The interface is your mail
>>> client.
>>
>> Yes, and there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at
>> any forum.
>
> Then why don't you use the forum?
>

Hmm.
Time passes.
We deal with other matters.
Time passes.

Larx posts about how lame and unfriendly and antiquated and difficult to use the
Forum is...

Thread ensues with all the regulars sounding off, just as they usually do.

Nothing gets changed.



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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Michal Suchánek
In reply to this post by Neal Gompa
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 15:05:54 -0400
Neal Gompa <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Patrick Shanahan <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > * Larx <[hidden email]> [06-18-17 14:08]:
> >  [...]
> >  
> >> I just wanted to state how I'm feeling when trying to participate
> >> in openSUSE. It does not really make fun this way, I'm already
> >> feeling that I'm wasting too much time which I could use better.
> >> And I could imagine others feel like this, too, while other
> >> distros offer easy-to- use interfaces to their community.  
> >
> >
> > and if I visited your home and told you that your living room couch
> > and end tables would look much better facing the other window and
> > the lamps were not complementary of your decor, you would probably
> > be pissssssed. why do you think it is ok to do the same to openSUSE
> > users?  what do you think the response world/will be?
> >
> > try and be just a little considerate, NEW-COMER.  
>
> That's not nice at all. If anything, newcomer feedback is tremendously
> more important than old-timers when it comes to these kinds of things.
> If the goal of openSUSE is to draw in users to become contributors,
> you can't act like that and expect people to want to stay.

If there are people who enjoy wading through walls of text broken
arbitrarily into 'topics' and 'pages' there exists mailing-list to
forum gateway software. You get at least one outsourced at google called
Google Groups and there is at least one opensource which somebody who
cares enough can set up and maintain - it is used by the Ruby language
mailing list.

>
> Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman 3
> specifically to address this pain point.

Archives that are useful before you transfer them to your local
harddisk and index them locally are desirable, sure. Still most mailing
lists provide somewhat usable archives in the form of monthly mbox
files which you can merge locally.

On the other hand, forums are one huge useless inaccessible archive
which works really hard to prevent anyone from accessing the data it
contains. It is considered a feature that users cannot access some posts
so you cannot export them in an usable way without breaking the usage
paradigm that administrators can limit access to posts. And if you want
to see a forum without access limitations there is at least one - it's
called 4chan ;-)

Thanks

Michal


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Re: hyperkitty (was: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list)

Ludwig Nussel
In reply to this post by Neal Gompa
Am 18.06.2017 um 21:05 schrieb Neal Gompa:
> [...]
> Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman 3
> specifically to address this pain point.

Any chance for someone to package that? Might be the first step to
getting it deployed.

cu
Ludwig

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink
In reply to this post by Michal Suchánek
Op maandag 19 juni 2017 14:56:01 CEST schreef Michal Suchánek:

> On the other hand, forums are one huge useless inaccessible archive
> which works really hard to prevent anyone from accessing the data it
> contains. It is considered a feature that users cannot access some posts
> so you cannot export them in an usable way without breaking the usage
> paradigm that administrators can limit access to posts. And if you want
> to see a forum without access limitations there is at least one - it's
> called 4chan ;-)
>

Sorry to say so: saying so about social media like Facebook, G+ is OK, but
this is not true for (at least) the openSUSE forums.

site: forums.opensuse.org 'searchstring' in Google search
search function of the forums works fine too.

> Thanks
>
> Michal

I even dare to say that for a lot of people forums are more friendlier. All
the subforums, different languages, an openSUSE version tagging sysotem,
moderators that point out to new users how to create decent posts, and, last
but not least NNTP access for those who don't want to use the web-interface.

--
Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht

openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team
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