Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

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Re: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Andrei Borzenkov
18.06.2017 21:31, Felix Miata пишет:
> Larx composed on 2017-06-18 19:43 (UTC+0200):
>
>> This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself
>> to sign in to a mailing list one again..
> You didn't have to:
> https://forums.opensuse.org/forum.php
>

You do if you want to follow factory.
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Re: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Larx
Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:04 (UTC+0200):
...
> there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at
> any forum.
.
All forums I've tried are inferior to email, little different from the rest of
the rude bloated modern internet.
.
> Novells bugzilla is the worst I have ever encountered. And I contribute
> to quite a few. Until I have browsed through all the convoluted options
> available there, I usually lose the patience to file a bug.
.
Bad as the microfocus interference is, it's still little different from most
other bugzilla-based bug trackers on the web, nearly all of which are better
overall than:

Debian's email-based tracker
Github
Google Code
Jira (bugreports.qt.io)
Launchpad
bugzilla.redhat.com
Trac

It's actually a significant reason why I have not switched from openSUSE to
Debian as primary OS.
--
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 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Larx
Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200):
.
> See
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
.
No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are
(supposedly) openSUSE users:
https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
--
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Neal Gompa
In reply to this post by Patrick Shanahan-2
On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 2:20 PM, Patrick Shanahan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * Larx <[hidden email]> [06-18-17 14:08]:
>  [...]
>
>> I just wanted to state how I'm feeling when trying to participate in
>> openSUSE. It does not really make fun this way, I'm already feeling
>> that I'm wasting too much time which I could use better. And I could
>> imagine others feel like this, too, while other distros offer easy-to-
>> use interfaces to their community.
>
>
> and if I visited your home and told you that your living room couch and
> end tables would look much better facing the other window and the lamps
> were not complementary of your decor, you would probably be pissssssed.
> why do you think it is ok to do the same to openSUSE users?  what do you
> think the response world/will be?
>
> try and be just a little considerate, NEW-COMER.

That's not nice at all. If anything, newcomer feedback is tremendously
more important than old-timers when it comes to these kinds of things.
If the goal of openSUSE is to draw in users to become contributors,
you can't act like that and expect people to want to stay.

Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman 3
specifically to address this pain point.

As for improving openSUSE infrastructure, my understanding is that
this is fundamentally not possible, as mailing lists (mlmmj) and the
issue tracker (bugzilla) are maintained by SUSE/Micro Focus employees
exclusively. The best we can do is complain about it.

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Re: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Neal Gompa
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Felix Miata <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:04 (UTC+0200):
> ...
>> there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at
>> any forum.
> .
> All forums I've tried are inferior to email, little different from the rest of
> the rude bloated modern internet.
> .
>> Novells bugzilla is the worst I have ever encountered. And I contribute
>> to quite a few. Until I have browsed through all the convoluted options
>> available there, I usually lose the patience to file a bug.
> .
> Bad as the microfocus interference is, it's still little different from most
> other bugzilla-based bug trackers on the web, nearly all of which are better
> overall than:
>
> Debian's email-based tracker
> Github
> Google Code
> Jira (bugreports.qt.io)
> Launchpad
> bugzilla.redhat.com
> Trac
>
> It's actually a significant reason why I have not switched from openSUSE to
> Debian as primary OS.

I've heard that there might be some ways to improve bugzilla UX in
bugzilla 5.x, but to date, only Mageia uses bugzilla 5.x and it's
pretty stock.


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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Sarah Julia Kriesch
In reply to this post by Neal Gompa


> Gesendet: Sonntag, 18. Juni 2017 um 21:05 Uhr
> Von: "Neal Gompa" <[hidden email]>
> An: oS-fctry <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup
>
> Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman 3
> specifically to address this pain point.
>
> As for improving openSUSE infrastructure, my understanding is that
> this is fundamentally not possible, as mailing lists (mlmmj) and the
> issue tracker (bugzilla) are maintained by SUSE/Micro Focus employees
> exclusively. The best we can do is complain about it.
>
Since one year it is possible, because the Heroes Team was founded at the oSC 16.
Heroes are responsible for the openSUSE infrastructure. Mailing lists are in community hands (Per Jessen) now, too.
We are open for new ideas and improvements. You can contribute there, too.

Best regards,
Sarah
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Jan Engelhardt-4
In reply to this post by Larx

On Sunday 2017-06-18 19:43, Larx wrote:

>As I like SUSE and want to have an usable 42.3, I once again plunged in
>the openSUSE infrastructure and am appalled at how backwards (sorry)
>this all seams. Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces, unusable on mobile,
>[...] I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a
>reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k
>modems into account.

Your mobile does become terrible like a 33.6 whenever it shows GPRS/EDGE.
(Especially in Neuland Germany.)

You don't really get out, do you?
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Larx
On 18/06/17 02:04 PM, Larx wrote:
> Novells bugzilla is the worst I have ever encountered. And I contribute
> to quite a few. Until I have browsed through all the convoluted options
> available there, I usually lose the patience to file a bug.

+1
I tried it once and didn't like it so I avoid it now.

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bombs, more on hospitals than the terrible tools of war, more on decent houses
than military aircraft.
   -- Robert Kennedy March 24, 1968
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 15:03 -0400 schrieb Felix Miata:

> Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200):
> .
> >
> > See
> > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
> .
> No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are
> (supposedly) openSUSE users:
> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820

Could you please elaborate more? I don't understand that. I filed a bug
at bugzilla.opensuse.org (with all its strange registration process,
which indeed does not really look like an OSS community). I nowhere
found a hint that as a openSUSE user I have to go elsewhere, I just
followed the links. What is the difference between the links, the
content seems pretty much the same.

(For me this just proves my point that the openSUSE infrastructure
leaves a lot to be improved.)
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
In reply to this post by Sarah Julia Kriesch


Am 18. Juni 2017 22:27:10 MESZ schrieb Sarah Julia Kriesch <[hidden email]>:

>
>
>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 18. Juni 2017 um 21:05 Uhr
>> Von: "Neal Gompa" <[hidden email]>
>> An: oS-fctry <[hidden email]>
>> Betreff: Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re:
>[opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault
>at startup
>>
>> Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman
>3
>> specifically to address this pain point.
>>
>> As for improving openSUSE infrastructure, my understanding is that
>> this is fundamentally not possible, as mailing lists (mlmmj) and the
>> issue tracker (bugzilla) are maintained by SUSE/Micro Focus employees
>> exclusively. The best we can do is complain about it.
>>
>Since one year it is possible, because the Heroes Team was founded at
>the oSC 16.
>Heroes are responsible for the openSUSE infrastructure. Mailing lists
>are in community hands (Per Jessen) now, too.
>We are open for new ideas and improvements. You can contribute there,
>too.
>
>Best regards,
>Sarah

Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Patrick Shanahan-2
In reply to this post by Larx
* Larx <[hidden email]> [06-18-17 23:19]:

> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 15:03 -0400 schrieb Felix Miata:
> > Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200):
> > .
> > >
> > > See
> > > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
> > .
> > No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are
> > (supposedly) openSUSE users:
> > https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
> > 
>
> Could you please elaborate more? I don't understand that. I filed a bug
> at bugzilla.opensuse.org (with all its strange registration process,
> which indeed does not really look like an OSS community). I nowhere
> found a hint that as a openSUSE user I have to go elsewhere, I just
> followed the links. What is the difference between the links, the
> content seems pretty much the same.

Leap is not SLE but is based upon, just the same as Tumbleweed is not Leap
or SLE

> (For me this just proves my point that the openSUSE infrastructure
> leaves a lot to be improved.)

yes, blame your failures on everyone else.  everything can be improved to
some degree.

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early system logs

Patrick Shanahan-2
In reply to this post by Larx

oddity today.  all six of my local systems mailed their logs one hour
earlier than they are configured and the time that they have mailed for
some years ????

have I lost an hour somewhere ?????  :)

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Re: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Larx
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
That argument sounds really 90ies, sorry to say that. Any forum since dozens of years is customable, you subscribe only to the subjects you like, you can get tailor made email digests etc.

I know the openSUSE forums, yes, but I think they really don't have the quality of support needed, no really good answers are found there.

You might just take my comments not as an insult, but as the impression one gets when trying to get more involved in openSUSE. And I use SUSE since 5.x, however I also think that you also have to adapt to the technical standards evolving over the time. SUSE community infrastructure seems not to have done that.

Am 18. Juni 2017 20:31:57 MESZ schrieb Felix Miata <[hidden email]>:

>Larx composed on 2017-06-18 19:43 (UTC+0200):
>
>> This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself
>> to sign in to a mailing list one again..
>You didn't have to:
>https://forums.opensuse.org/forum.php
>
>> Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces
>.
>Email offers a tried and true interface. Consistent interface, lack of
>change,
>is one of its attractions. Subscribers are here by their own choices,
>not
>forced. We get to have legible black on white, or any other color
>schemes of our
>own choosing, and optimally sized text, without jumping through hoops
>to get
>them. And, we need not be online, or load a bloated web application, to
>read our
>email.
>
>Unwanted line wrapping of log files is avoided by either attaching to
>email, or
>pastebinning, the latter of which doesn't necessarily have to use
>http://susepaste.org/. In addition to other paste URLs there is the
>option to
>use personal web space.
>
>> I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a
>> reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take
>33.6k
>> modems into account.
>.
>Not everyone can live where broadband or unmetered bandwidth are
>options.
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Re: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Felix Miata-3
Larx composed on 2017-06-19 06:06 (UTC+0200):

> That argument sounds really 90ies, sorry to say that. Any forum since dozens
> of years is customable, you subscribe only to the subjects you like, you can
> get tailor made email digests etc..
Email needs to be customized, if at all, once only.

Each forum has different interfaces for customizing to learn, and *must* be
separately customized, without exception, as they're all designed for people who
enjoy 85th percentile or better vision, using little browser windows that only
fill 1/3 or less of a screen. The need often repeats as each's admin sees fit so
replace its "worn" or "obsolete" styles with "new and improved" styles that
reduce its site's usability, and obsolete existing ad blocker settings.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

L A Walsh
In reply to this post by Patrick Shanahan-2
Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> and if I visited your home and told you that your living room couch and
> end tables would look much better facing the other window and the lamps
> were not complementary of your decor, you would probably be pissssssed.
> why do you think it is ok to do the same to openSUSE users?  what do you
> think the response world/will be?
>
> try and be just a little considerate, NEW-COMER.
>  
As soon as I stop seeing official open suse messages like this one:


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Leap 42.3 Build 0272 released!
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2017 21:03:21 +0200
From: Ludwig Nussel <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]



....
that are over 2MB in length, maybe I'll take size complaints more seriously.

But when the official emails are 2MB in length, you are going to complain
about a 150K logfile?  *cough*.

Gimme a break.



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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Sarah Julia Kriesch
In reply to this post by Larx


> Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr
> Von: Larx <[hidden email]>
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup
>
>
>
> Am 18. Juni 2017 22:27:10 MESZ schrieb Sarah Julia Kriesch <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >
> >> Gesendet: Sonntag, 18. Juni 2017 um 21:05 Uhr
> >> Von: "Neal Gompa" <[hidden email]>
> >> An: oS-fctry <[hidden email]>
> >> Betreff: Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re:
> >[opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault
> >at startup
> >>
> >> Heck, in Fedora, we *developed* HyperKitty and Posterius for Mailman
> >3
> >> specifically to address this pain point.
> >>
> >> As for improving openSUSE infrastructure, my understanding is that
> >> this is fundamentally not possible, as mailing lists (mlmmj) and the
> >> issue tracker (bugzilla) are maintained by SUSE/Micro Focus employees
> >> exclusively. The best we can do is complain about it.
> >>
> >Since one year it is possible, because the Heroes Team was founded at
> >the oSC 16.
> >Heroes are responsible for the openSUSE infrastructure. Mailing lists
> >are in community hands (Per Jessen) now, too.
> >We are open for new ideas and improvements. You can contribute there,
> >too.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Sarah
>
> Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.
https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/
>
>
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Andrei Borzenkov
On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr
>> Von: Larx <[hidden email]>
...
>>
>> Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.
> https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/

Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this
information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you
really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE
media to find it?
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Larx
Larx composed on 2017-06-19 05:16 (UTC+0200):
.
> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 15:03 -0400 Felix Miata composed:
.
>> Larx composed on 2017-06-18 20:31 (UTC+0200):
 .
>> > See
>> > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
.
>> No wonder you find it troublesome. That's for SLE users. We here are
>> (supposedly) openSUSE users:
>> https://bugzilla.opensuse.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
.
> Could you please elaborate more? I don't understand that. I filed a bug
> at bugzilla.opensuse.org (with all its strange registration process,
> which indeed does not really look like an OSS community). I nowhere
> found a hint that as a openSUSE user I have to go elsewhere, I just
> followed the links. What is the difference between the links, the
> content seems pretty much the same..
How you got where you wound up is anybody's guess. Its website, with too many
different ways to login, and too many needs to login, in order to get anything
done, is hardly one of openSUSE's more endearing features.

The difference is one of polite convention, not necessity. Most of us here are
openSUSE users, not SLE users. It's an opensuse forum. The bug tracker we use
has three aliases: 1-buzilla.suse.com; 2-bugzilla.novell.com; and
3-bugzilla.opensuse.org. Thus, we have the opportunity to bloat our browser
histories with 3X as many URLs per bug as other Linux bug tracker users.
Sticking to the one that best matches the forum is simply good behavior.
.
> (For me this just proves my point that the openSUSE infrastructure
> leaves a lot to be improved.)
.
You and I disagree only in degree. Nothing's perfect. openSUSE's positives
simply do a better job of outweighing its negatives than other distros.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Sarah Julia Kriesch
In reply to this post by Andrei Borzenkov


> Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 08:09 Uhr
> Von: "Andrei Borzenkov" <[hidden email]>
> An: "Sarah Julia Kriesch" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Larx <[hidden email]>, opensuse-factory <[hidden email]>
> Betreff: Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Sarah Julia Kriesch
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Gesendet: Montag, 19. Juni 2017 um 05:56 Uhr
> >> Von: Larx <[hidden email]>
> ...
> >>
> >> Where? As with many things in openSUSE, this is a great idea, but it is not really obvious from the bulk of different websites where to contribute. I did not know about Heroes until know.
> > https://news.opensuse.org/2016/07/25/introducing-opensuse-heroes/
>
> Is it a joke? That's exactly what Larx tries to tell you - this
> information is buried in news ticker somewhere in the past. Do you
> really expect every newcomer to read all archives of all openSUSE
> media to find it?
> --
Larx wanted to know more about the Heroes Team. That's the best introduction about this team and the news page includes all important links which are up to date.

Of course, we have got our wiki page, too: https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Heroes 
>
>
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Adam Majer
In reply to this post by Larx
On 06/18/2017 07:43 PM, Larx wrote:

> This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself
> to sign in to a mailing list one again. When I started about probably
> 20 years ago, it was OK to have mailboxes full of list traffic. Now I
> have other priorities in live, and nowadays am used to have e.g. user
> friendly forums with attachments for logs, Github issue pages, the
> option to selectively follow only the topics I'm interested, and so on.
> I can concentrate on other things in life than browsing through lists.
>
> As I like SUSE and want to have an usable 42.3, I once again plunged in
> the openSUSE infrastructure and am appalled at how backwards (sorry)
> this all seams. Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces, unusable on mobile,
> a completely seperate place to put logs, and a Bugzilla with a strange
> UI (compare it to others), where I have to create an account which
> wants to know all kinds of things from me as if I am a corporate
> customer of Novell.

Mailing lists are still and will most likely remain the main way of
interacting with FOSS community for foreseeable future. There are many
reasons for that, but you can just look at how "email is dead" and long
live "XYZ" for the last 2 decades.

You can have multiple folders in email - just filter mailing list to
another folder so you don't get your email spammed as much.

Unusable on mobile is a different problem.

Bugzilla is legacy here, I would rather refer to it as "enterprise" and
it is just as likely to change. Every system has its quirks. Debian has
their e-mail based bug tracking system. OpenSUSE has Bugzilla.

The Novell signup page for Bugzilla account has been talked about for
quite some time. People are aware of it for just as long, but it's not
as straightforward to change things as wishing for them.


> I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a
> reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k
> modems into account.

I'm not sure what you mean by "network limitations"?

The reasons cited is the same reason you cited - they don't want their
mailbox filled with uninteresting stuff like megabytes of someone's logs ;)


> This complete infrastructure is unworthy of this great distro!!

No, that is just ignorance on your part ;) It kind of reminds me of when
I was in university and someone was complaining loudly how they dared to
teach in such obsolete environment as "xterm" and "gcc" instead of
"modern OS like Windows and Visual Studio".


Anyway, back to your Qt issues. Without at least a backtrace, we can all
just be guessing at the problem. Is it possible for you to get a
backtrace of the crash?

- Adam

PS. As always, I only speak for myself.
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