Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

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Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
Hello,

I have updated my Leap 42.2 to 42.3 (current version as of today).
Everything went without a hitch. However, I had to discover that only GTK apps still work. I tried that from Gnome and IceWM. The desktop is there and GTK apps (maybe other toolkits, too) start. Anything Qt based crashes at startup. The same with Firefox.
This is on a i915 integrated graphics laptop. I also created a blank user account, same situation.
I really don't know where to find a hint what's going on here. Any ideas?

Larx
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink
Op vrijdag 16 juni 2017 21:35:09 CEST schreef Larx:
> Hello,
>
> I have updated my Leap 42.2 to 42.3 (current version as of today).

Not at all 'current' . Leap 42.3 has not been released yet. Where did you get
this info?

> Everything went without a hitch. However, I had to discover that only GTK
> apps still work. I tried that from Gnome and IceWM. The desktop is there
> and GTK apps (maybe other toolkits, too) start. Anything Qt based crashes
> at startup. The same with Firefox. This is on a i915 integrated graphics
> laptop. I also created a blank user account, same situation. I really don't
> know where to find a hint what's going on here. Any ideas?
>
> Larx

Yep, you've upgraded to a not yet finished release. Having said that, 42.3 runs
very stable on my test partition, upgrade through 'zypper dup' after changing
the repos resulted in a working desktop ( and other things I checked ). The
phenomena you describe make me think your upgrade strategy was somehow
different.
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
Op vrijdag 16 juni 2017 21:35:09 CEST schreef Larx:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have updated my Leap 42.2 to 42.3 (current version as of today).
>
> Not at all 'current' . Leap 42.3 has not been released yet. Where did
> you get 
> this info?

I know that 42.3 is in beta, and therefore I posted to the factory
mailing list. And therefore what I mean with "current" is the most
recent snapshot of the currently "rolling release" state of 42.3 :-/.

> >
> > Everything went without a hitch. However, I had to discover that
> > only GTK
> > apps still work. I tried that from Gnome and IceWM. The desktop is
> > there
> > and GTK apps (maybe other toolkits, too) start. Anything Qt based
> > crashes
> > at startup. The same with Firefox. This is on a i915 integrated
> > graphics
> > laptop. I also created a blank user account, same situation. I
> > really don't
> > know where to find a hint what's going on here. Any ideas?
> >
> > Larx
>
> Yep, you've upgraded to a not yet finished release.

I know that. However, given the conservative strategy of Leap, in which
42.3 does not really seem so much different than an updated 42.2, I had
the hope not to run into relevant problems.

> Having said that, 42.3 runs 
> very stable on my test partition, upgrade through 'zypper dup' after
> changing 
> the repos resulted in a working desktop ( and other things I checked
> ). The 
> phenomena you describe make me think your upgrade strategy was
> somehow 
> different. 


I did two upgrade strategies. One was "zypper dup" from the running
system with the 42.3 repo enabled - only GTK apps start. I went back to
42.2, and tried again by updating with a bootable installation USB
stick. Agsin, only GTK apps start. No Qt, no Firefox, no Chrome...

I fail to see problems with the update strategy.


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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
In reply to this post by Larx
Am Freitag, den 16.06.2017, 21:35 +0200 schrieb Larx:

> Hello,
>
> I have updated my Leap 42.2 to 42.3 (current version as of today).
> Everything went without a hitch. However, I had to discover that only
> GTK apps still work. I tried that from Gnome and IceWM. The desktop
> is there and GTK apps (maybe other toolkits, too) start. Anything Qt
> based crashes at startup. The same with Firefox.
> This is on a i915 integrated graphics laptop. I also created a blank
> user account, same situation.
> I really don't know where to find a hint what's going on here. Any
> ideas?
>
> Larx

Additional info, a few of the coredumps. I don't get the common idea
behind the error, however :-(.

larx@linux:~> chromium 
Received signal 11 SEGV_MAPERR 000000000008
#0 0x565058b8edd7 base::debug::StackTrace::StackTrace()
#1 0x565058b8f1c1 base::debug::(anonymous
namespace)::StackDumpSignalHandler()
#2 0x7f4292cf3b10 <unknown>
#3 0x56505952d0a5 ui::DeviceDataManagerX11::UpdateDeviceList()
#4 0x56505952d7c6 ui::DeviceDataManagerX11::DeviceDataManagerX11()
#5 0x56505952d835 ui::DeviceDataManagerX11::CreateInstance()
#6 0x565059531e0b ui::X11EventSource::X11EventSource()
#7 0x56505c38f4f4 ui::X11EventSourceGlib::X11EventSourceGlib()
#8 0x56505c38f547 ui::PlatformEventSource::CreateDefault()
#9 0x5650599820b8 aura::Env::Init()
#10 0x56505998211e aura::Env::CreateInstance()
#11 0x56505781be9b content::BrowserMainLoop::InitializeToolkit()
#12 0x56505781e802 content::BrowserMainRunnerImpl::Initialize()
#13 0x565057817d02 content::BrowserMain()
#14 0x5650587eebd8 content::ContentMainRunnerImpl::Run()
#15 0x565059a10942 service_manager::Main()
#16 0x5650587ed761 content::ContentMain()
#17 0x56505731f2c4 ChromeMain
#18 0x7f4288b7e6e5 __libc_start_main
#19 0x56505731f159 _start
  r8: 0000000000000001  r9: 0000000000000008 r10: ffffcf447190b443 r11:
00007f4288cbee60
 r12: 000030b93cedf0e0 r13: 000056505f2ec2cc r14: 000056505d0399c8 r15:
00007ffe635b36a0
  di: 000000000000000e  si: 0000000000000000  bp: 000030b93cd8e000  bx:
000030b93d0ff000
  dx: 0000000000000000  ax: 0000000000000066  cx: 0000000000000000  sp:
00007ffe635b2f90
  ip: 000056505952d0a5 efl: 0000000000010246 cgf: 002b000000000033 erf:
0000000000000004
 trp: 000000000000000e msk: 0000000000000000 cr2: 0000000000000008
[end of stack trace]
Calling _exit(1). Core file will not be generated.

larx@linux:~> firefox
ExceptionHandler::GenerateDump cloned child 4086
ExceptionHandler::WaitForContinueSignal waiting for continue signal...
ExceptionHandler::SendContinueSignalToChild sent continue signal to
child
Speicherzugriffsfehler (Speicherabzug geschrieben)

larx@linux:~> digikam
AudioResampler::Register(..., FFmpeg)
Singleton 0x1da3190 created...
AudioResampler::Register(..., Libav)
AudioOutputBackend::Register(..., OpenAL)
Singleton 0x1da3340 created...
AudioOutputBackend::Register(..., Pulse)
VideoDecoder::Register(..., VAAPI)
Singleton 0x1da34f0 created...
VideoRenderer::Register(..., OpenGLWindow)
Singleton 0x1da3f00 created...
SubtitleProcessor::Register(..., LibASS)
Singleton 0x1da4030 created...
SubtitleProcessor::Register(..., FFmpeg)
AudioDecoder::Register(..., FFmpeg)
Singleton 0x1da4420 created...
AudioEncoder::Register(..., FFmpeg)
Singleton 0x1da44f0 created...
ImageConverter::Register(..., FFmpeg)
Singleton 0x1da4620 created...
MediaIO::Register(..., QIODevice)
Singleton 0x1da4920 created...
MediaIO::Register(..., QFile)
AudioOutputBackend::Register(..., null)
VideoDecoder::Register(..., FFmpeg)
VideoEncoder::Register(..., FFmpeg)
Singleton 0x1da4bb0 created...
registerRenderers...........
VideoRenderer::Register(..., OpenGLWidget)
VideoRenderer::Register(..., QGLWidget2)
VideoRenderer::Register(..., Widget)
VideoRenderer::Register(..., XVideo)
VideoRenderer::Register(..., X11)
VideoRenderer::Register(..., GraphicsItem)
Speicherzugriffsfehler (Speicherabzug geschrieben)
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Larx
Larx composed on 2017-06-17 06:16 (UTC+0200):

> Larx composed:
.
>> > I have updated my Leap 42.2 to 42.3 (current version as of today).
...
> I did two upgrade strategies. One was "zypper dup" from the running
> system with the 42.3 repo enabled - only GTK apps start. I went back to
> 42.2, and tried again by updating with a bootable installation USB
> stick. Agsin, only GTK apps start. No Qt, no Firefox, no Chrome...
.
I don't see any problem with your strategy. I have 6 42.3 installations that
originated as zypper dups of 42.2 or 13.1. Only one here originated from 42.3
devel media.

I didn't see you mention anywhere which WM/DE you use. On host big41 here, I
just did zypper up and then zypper dup on a 42.3 that was a new installation of
42.2/KDE3 originally in November, last updated previously about a month ago.
Nothing I tried crashes:

FirefoxESR 45
Firefox 51
FirefoxESR 52
SeaMonkey 2.46
SeaMonkey 2.48b1
Konsole
Gwenview (3)
File Commander/L
Avidemux3
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx





>I didn't see you mention anywhere which WM/DE you use. On host big41

I did, somewhere in the beginning: Usually I default to Gnome, but I also tried IceWM, which seems kind of openSuSE's default fallback.

>here, I
>just did zypper up and then zypper dup on a 42.3 that was a new
>installation of
>42.2/KDE3 originally in November, last updated previously about a month
>ago.
>Nothing I tried crashes:
>
>FirefoxESR 45
>Firefox 51
>FirefoxESR 52
>SeaMonkey 2.46
>SeaMonkey 2.48b1
>Konsole
>Gwenview (3)
>File Commander/L
>Avidemux3

I gather that it must be some strange incompatibility for me, as I seem to be the only one. I don't have such a exotic system, it's an Intel-based MS Surface Pro 3 with a fairly fresh, good working 42.2 installation. Only exotic stuff is a few NFS mounts and SSSD with LDAP for authentication, but that should be harmless.

I don't have an idea where to start finding the reason for this behaviour :-(

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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
I did what you would normally not do: I installed all xorg & Mesa
packages (and dependancies, which is surprisingly few) from 42.2
forcible over my 42.3 system. Now all apps start again. So it seems
that something in the Xorg stack does not play well with my hw... any
idea what has changed here?

Am Samstag, den 17.06.2017, 15:04 +0200 schrieb Larx:

>
>
>
>
> >
> > I didn't see you mention anywhere which WM/DE you use. On host
> > big41
>
> I did, somewhere in the beginning: Usually I default to Gnome, but I
> also tried IceWM, which seems kind of openSuSE's default.
>
> >
> > here, I
> > just did zypper up and then zypper dup on a 42.3 that was a new
> > installation of
> > 42.2/KDE3 originally in November, last updated previously about a
> > month
> > ago.
> > Nothing I tried crashes:
> >
> > FirefoxESR 45
> > Firefox 51
> > FirefoxESR 52
> > SeaMonkey 2.46
> > SeaMonkey 2.48b1
> > Konsole
> > Gwenview (3)
> > File Commander/L
> > Avidemux3
>
> I gather that it must be some strange incompatibility for me, as I
> seem to be the only one. I don't have such a exotic system, it's a MS
> Surface Pro 3 with a fairly fresh, good working 42.2 installation.
> Only exotic stuff is a few NFS mounts and SSSD with LDAP for
> authentication, but that should be harmless.
>
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Larx
Larx composed on 2017-06-17 15:12 (UTC+0200):
.
> I gather that it must be some strange incompatibility for me, as I seem to be
> the only one. I don't have such a exotic system, it's an Intel-based MS
> Surface Pro 3 with a fairly fresh, good working 42.2 installation. Only
> exotic stuff is a few NFS mounts and SSSD with LDAP for authentication, but
> that should be harmless.
.
> I don't have an idea where to start finding the reason for this behaviour :-(

Those want help really need to provide better information about the hardware
than simply "Surface Pro 3" or "i915", which say little to would-be helpers,
making them work extra to figure out someplace just to get started. I took the
trouble and found on a web forum

        8086:22b0

which translates to Intel Braswell. So, focus on that keyword, as yours seems to
be a unique problem likely related to your specific gfx. Share also this:

        egrep 'onnec|EE' /var/log/Xorg.?.log

which should tell us running kernel, which driver Xorg is actually using, how
it's connected to the display, and any error messages coming from the server.
Alternatively, pastebin the whole log (zypper in susepaste; man susepaste).

Some other commands that might help us help you:

        inxi
        hwinfo
        lspci
        dmesg | grep error
        journalctl [-e|tail -n##]
        journalctl -e _COMM=gdm-x-session
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words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
To start, I found the problematic package: xf86-input-libinput!
If I revert only this one back to the last 42.2 version, everything
works as expected.

> Those want help really need to provide better information about the
> hardware
> than simply "Surface Pro 3" or "i915", which say little to would-be
> helpers,

I had hoped that the problem could be solved without digging in the hw
specs... also sending logs seems a bit problematic to me as the list
does not allow attachments (btw, I really felt a bit retro subscribing
to this mailing list and having to use susepaste for attachements
instead of using a forum or something "modern" like that.)

> making them work extra to figure out someplace just to get started. I
> took the
> trouble and found on a web forum
>
> 8086:22b0
>
> which translates to Intel Braswell. So, focus on that keyword, as
> yours seems to
> be a unique problem likely related to your specific gfx. Share also
> this:
>
> egrep 'onnec|EE' /var/log/Xorg.?.log

Nothing here. I would have been glad to find some hint in some place as
obvious as this:

[  1975.645] Current Operating System: Linux surface 4.12.0-rc5-
1.g270295f-default #1 SMP PREEMPT Mon Jun 12 16:41:35 UTC 2017
(270295f) x86_64
        (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.
[  1975.925] (EE) libinput bug: Microsoft Surface Type Cover Touchpad:
Internal or external? Please file a bug.
[  1975.960] (EE) libinput bug: Microsoft Surface Type Cover Touchpad:
Internal or external? Please file a bug.
[  1976.236] (II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "NTRG0001:01
1B96:1B05" (type: TOUCHSCREEN, id 14)

The error always appears and did no hurt. And don't stumble over the
kernel version, the same problem also occurs with the stock kernel.
However, the Surface Pro needs a more modern kernel in order to work
properly.

> which should tell us running kernel, which driver Xorg is actually
> using, how
> it's connected to the display, and any error messages coming from the
> server.
> Alternatively, pastebin the whole log (zypper in susepaste; man
> susepaste).
>
> Some other commands that might help us help you:
>
> inxi

Don't know the command.

> hwinfo

Would like to susepaste, but for some reason susepaste does not create
a link (maybe textfile is too long).

> lspci

00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Haswell-ULT DRAM Controller (rev
0b)
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Haswell-ULT
Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 0b)
00:03.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation Haswell-ULT HD Audio Controller
(rev 0b)
00:14.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation 8 Series USB xHCI HC (rev 04)
00:16.0 Communication controller: Intel Corporation 8 Series HECI #0
(rev 04)
00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation 8 Series HD Audio Controller
(rev 04)
00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 8 Series PCI Express Root Port 3
(rev e4)
00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation 8 Series LPC Controller (rev 04)
00:1f.2 SATA controller: Intel Corporation 8 Series SATA Controller 1
[AHCI mode] (rev 04)
00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation 8 Series SMBus Controller (rev 04)
01:00.0 Ethernet controller: Marvell Technology Group Ltd. 88W8897
[AVASTAR] 802.11ac Wireless

> dmesg | grep error

[    2.530745] i8042: probe of i8042 failed with error -5
[    4.676300] tpm_tis: probe of MSFT0101:00 failed with error -22
[    4.757933] dw_dmac: probe of INTL9C60:00 failed with error -16
[    4.765984] soc_button_array: probe of MSHW0029:00 failed with error
-2
[    7.154431] mwifiex_pcie 0000:01:00.0: CMD_RESP: cmd 0x242 error,
result=0x2
[ 1985.347244] nextcloud[7447]: segfault at 0 ip 00007f9fb62ff6c1 sp
00007ffd55e1a540 error 4 in libgdk-x11-
2.0.so.0.2400.31[7f9fb628c000+b0000]
[ 1985.380333] wire-desktop[7435]: segfault at 0 ip 00007fc3835a26c1 sp
00007fffd0078a60 error 4 in libgdk-x11-
2.0.so.0.2400.31[7fc38352f000+b0000]
[ 1993.165541] firefox[7692]: segfault at 0 ip 00007f27413ad6c1 sp
00007ffc1b447790 error 4 in libgdk-x11-
2.0.so.0.2400.31[7f274133a000+b0000]
[ 1993.191853] crashreporter[7701]: segfault at 0 ip 00007f3c736b16c1
sp 00007ffc9a50f380 error 4 in libgdk-x11-
2.0.so.0.2400.31[7f3c7363e000+b0000]

Here you can watch the crashing of my startup apps :-(

> journalctl [-e|tail -n##]

???

> journalctl -e _COMM=gdm-x-session

https://paste.opensuse.org/16965081
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Felix Miata-3
Larx composed on 2017-06-18 06:25 (UTC+0200):

> To start, I found the problematic package: xf86-input-libinput!
> If I revert only this one back to the last 42.2 version, everything
> works as expected.
.
Found how exactly?
...
> ... also sending logs seems a bit problematic to me as the list
> does not allow attachments.
Discourages, not disallows. Obsolete logs needlessly clutter mailing list
archives. Logs on susepaste expire as there usefulness expires.
.
> (btw, I really felt a bit retro subscribing
> to this mailing list and having to use susepaste for attachements
> instead of using a forum or something "modern" like that.)
...
>> journalctl [-e|tail -n##]

> ???
.
I left out a necessary | before [. :-( As in man pages, '-e' and 'tail -n##' are
alternative options for use with journalctl. e.g. 'journalctl | tail -n33'.
.
>> journalctl -e _COMM=gdm-x-session
.
> https://paste.opensuse.org/16965081
.
There are advantages to plain text "retro" email.

In email, I see legible black text on white background in optimal size, instead
of the susepaste URL, which is gray mousetype along with a copious added and
wasteful whitespace, plus useless distractive material typical of forums and
other web sites. At least the susepaste URL has a link to raw output, which
produces a page that works as well or maybe even better than email.

Glad you found the problem. Did you report it on http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/
(or at least mention it on ircs://freenode/opensuse-factory), so that newer
libinput versions might get fixed?
--
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Larx
On 2017-06-18 06:25, Larx wrote:

> To start, I found the problematic package: xf86-input-libinput!
> If I revert only this one back to the last 42.2 version, everything
> works as expected.
>
>> Those want help really need to provide better information about the
>> hardware
>> than simply "Surface Pro 3" or "i915", which say little to would-be
>> helpers,
>
> I had hoped that the problem could be solved without digging in the hw
> specs... also sending logs seems a bit problematic to me as the list
> does not allow attachments (btw, I really felt a bit retro subscribing
> to this mailing list and having to use susepaste for attachements
> instead of using a forum or something "modern" like that.)
Last time I looked at the opensuse.org forum, you are requested to use
susepaste for attachments of large logs too.


--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
On 2017-06-18 07:15, Felix Miata wrote:

> Larx composed on 2017-06-18 06:25 (UTC+0200):
>
>> To start, I found the problematic package: xf86-input-libinput!
>> If I revert only this one back to the last 42.2 version, everything
>> works as expected.
> .
> Found how exactly?
> ...
>> ... also sending logs seems a bit problematic to me as the list
>> does not allow attachments.
> Discourages, not disallows. Obsolete logs needlessly clutter mailing list
> archives. Logs on susepaste expire as there usefulness expires.
The main reason for the request to use susepaste is politeness.
Ie, not forcing all the subscribers to download large posts that they
are not interested in. Remember that there are still people using bad
internet connections and others that have to pay for each megabyte they
download.

Another reason is that pasting a log file into an email often makes the
line wrap making it difficult to read. Instead uploading intact to
somewhere keeps the long lines.

--
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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3

Am 18. Juni 2017 07:15:28 MESZ schrieb Felix Miata <[hidden email]
et>:

>
> Larx composed on 2017-06-18 06:25 (UTC+0200):
>
> >
> > To start, I found the problematic package: xf86-input-libinput!
> > If I revert only this one back to the last 42.2 version, everything
> > works as expected.
> .
> Found how exactly?

Well, in all xorg packages only this one made a version jump with 42.3.
All others are still at their 42.2 version, only another revision. So
the probability was high ;-).


> Glad you found the problem. Did you report it on
> http://bugzilla.opensuse.org/
> (or at least mention it on ircs://freenode/opensuse-factory), so that
> newer
> libinput versions might get fixed?

Sigh. I guess I have to revitalize my openSUSE bugzilla account, you're
right.

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OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 12:36 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

> The main reason for the request to use susepaste is politeness.
> Ie, not forcing all the subscribers to download large posts that they
> are not interested in. Remember that there are still people using bad
> internet connections and others that have to pay for each megabyte
> they
> download.
>
> Another reason is that pasting a log file into an email often makes
> the
> line wrap making it difficult to read. Instead uploading intact to
> somewhere keeps the long lines.


This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself
to sign in to a mailing list one again. When I started about probably
20 years ago, it was OK to have mailboxes full of list traffic. Now I
have other priorities in live, and nowadays am used to have e.g. user
friendly forums with attachments for logs, Github issue pages, the
option to selectively follow only the topics I'm interested, and so on.
I can concentrate on other things in life than browsing through lists.

As I like SUSE and want to have an usable 42.3, I once again plunged in
the openSUSE infrastructure and am appalled at how backwards (sorry)
this all seams. Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces, unusable on mobile,
a completely seperate place to put logs, and a Bugzilla with a strange
UI (compare it to others), where I have to create an account which
wants to know all kinds of things from me as if I am a corporate
customer of Novell.

I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a
reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k
modems into account.

Sorry for the OT, but all this came into my mind when trying to take
part in the openSUSE world once again. 

This complete infrastructure is unworthy of this great distro!!
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2017-06-18 19:43, Larx wrote:

> Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 12:36 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:
>> The main reason for the request to use susepaste is politeness.
>> Ie, not forcing all the subscribers to download large posts that they
>> are not interested in. Remember that there are still people using bad
>> internet connections and others that have to pay for each megabyte
>> they
>> download.
>>
>> Another reason is that pasting a log file into an email often makes
>> the
>> line wrap making it difficult to read. Instead uploading intact to
>> somewhere keeps the long lines.
>
>
> This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself
> to sign in to a mailing list one again. When I started about probably
> 20 years ago, it was OK to have mailboxes full of list traffic. Now I
> have other priorities in live, and nowadays am used to have e.g. user
> friendly forums with attachments for logs, Github issue pages, the
> option to selectively follow only the topics I'm interested, and so on.
> I can concentrate on other things in life than browsing through lists.
>
> As I like SUSE and want to have an usable 42.3, I once again plunged in
> the openSUSE infrastructure and am appalled at how backwards (sorry)
> this all seams. Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces, unusable on mobile,
> a completely seperate place to put logs, and a Bugzilla with a strange
> UI (compare it to others), where I have to create an account which
> wants to know all kinds of things from me as if I am a corporate
> customer of Novell.
A mailing list is the same thing anywhere. The interface is your mail
client.

And about the bugzilla account, there is one link somewhere that doesn't
ask that much. But I don't remember it.

> I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a
> reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k
> modems into account.

The entire world is not modernized.
At home, I have unlimited and fast internet.
When not at home, I have less speed, and a monthly cap.

Without considering third world countries, the other day we were talking
about what internet connection some people get on Australia, and it is
not brilliant at all.


> Sorry for the OT, but all this came into my mind when trying to take
> part in the openSUSE world once again.
>
> This complete infrastructure is unworthy of this great distro!!

You could contribute to make it better.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 19:51 +0200 schrieb Carlos E. R.:

> A mailing list is the same thing anywhere. The interface is your mail
> client.

Yes, and there are better interfaces in the 21st century ;-). Look at
any forum.

> And about the bugzilla account, there is one link somewhere that
> doesn't
> ask that much. But I don't remember it.

Novells bugzilla is the worst I have ever encountered. And I contribute
to quite a few. Until I have browsed through all the convoluted options
available there, I usually lose the patience to file a bug.

> The entire world is not modernized.
> At home, I have unlimited and fast internet.
> When not at home, I have less speed, and a monthly cap.
> Without considering third world countries, the other day we were
> talking
> about what internet connection some people get on Australia, and it
> is
> not brilliant at all.

Well, anybody using rolling distros like openSUSE should have a good
enough internet connection to download it :-).

> structure is unworthy of this great distro!!
>
> You could contribute to make it better.
>

I just wanted to state how I'm feeling when trying to participate in
openSUSE. It does not really make fun this way, I'm already feeling
that I'm wasting too much time which I could use better. And I could
imagine others feel like this, too, while other distros offer easy-to-
use interfaces to their community.
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Patrick Shanahan-2
* Larx <[hidden email]> [06-18-17 14:08]:
 [...]

> I just wanted to state how I'm feeling when trying to participate in
> openSUSE. It does not really make fun this way, I'm already feeling
> that I'm wasting too much time which I could use better. And I could
> imagine others feel like this, too, while other distros offer easy-to-
> use interfaces to their community.


and if I visited your home and told you that your living room couch and
end tables would look much better facing the other window and the lamps
were not complementary of your decor, you would probably be pissssssed.
why do you think it is ok to do the same to openSUSE users?  what do you
think the response world/will be?

try and be just a little considerate, NEW-COMER.
--
(paka)Patrick Shanahan       Plainfield, Indiana, USA          @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.org    openSUSE Community Member    facebook/ptilopteri
Registered Linux User #207535                    @ http://linuxcounter.net
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo                    paka @ IRCnet freenode
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Re: OT: Userfriendliness of mailing list, was: Re: [opensuse-factory] Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
Am Sonntag, den 18.06.2017, 14:20 -0400 schrieb Patrick Shanahan:


>
> and if I visited your home and told you that your living room couch
> and
> end tables would look much better facing the other window and the
> lamps
> were not complementary of your decor, you would probably be
> pissssssed. 
> why do you think it is ok to do the same to openSUSE users?  what do
> you
> think the response world/will be?
>
> try and be just a little considerate, NEW-COMER.

Thanks for the polite words. That I also know better from other
communities I try with my limited time to participate in.
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Re: Leap 42.3: Only GTK apps start, all others segfault at startup

Larx
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3

> Glad you found the problem. Did you report it on http://bugzilla.open
> suse.org/
> (or at least mention it on ircs://freenode/opensuse-factory), so that
> newer
> libinput versions might get fixed?

See
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1044820
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Re: Userfriendliness of mailing list

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Larx
Larx composed on 2017-06-18 19:43 (UTC+0200):

> This is slightly (completely) OT, but I really had to convince myself
> to sign in to a mailing list one again..
You didn't have to:
https://forums.opensuse.org/forum.php

> Mailinglists with 90ies interfaces
.
Email offers a tried and true interface. Consistent interface, lack of change,
is one of its attractions. Subscribers are here by their own choices, not
forced. We get to have legible black on white, or any other color schemes of our
own choosing, and optimally sized text, without jumping through hoops to get
them. And, we need not be online, or load a bloated web application, to read our
email.

Unwanted line wrapping of log files is avoided by either attaching to email, or
pastebinning, the latter of which doesn't necessarily have to use
http://susepaste.org/. In addition to other paste URLs there is the option to
use personal web space.

> I am really also appalled to hear network traffic limitations as a
> reason for this - time has moved on and we should not longer take 33.6k
> modems into account.
.
Not everyone can live where broadband or unmetered bandwidth are options.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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