Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

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Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Andreas Jaeger-5
There's in bugzilla a user from Australia. Currently during installation,
you choose a language at the first screen and then automatically the
keyboard is changed to the primary keyboard for that language.

He and others from Australia install with language "English (UK)" but uses
an US keyboard - and apparently the US keyboard is common in most of the
commonwealth.

Since these users than do not change the keyboard setting, they have a
system installed that does not work for them with their keyboard.

for details see:
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=656023

Is this a common problem? Should we change it - and has anybody a good idea
on how to change it?

For me as German, I like the way that if I select "German" as language, I
get a German keyboard setup automatically, so I do not want to move away
from that one.

I see right now the following options:
1) Leave everything as is and close the bugreport as WONTFIX.
2) Handle "English (UK)" special and use the "English US" keyboard.
3) Do not change keyboard at all.
4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as
language but English US keyboard.
5) Any other ideas?

Andreas
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Oliver Neukum-4
Am Dienstag, 30. November 2010, 10:36:24 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:
> I see right now the following options:
> 1) Leave everything as is and close the bugreport as WONTFIX.
> 2) Handle "English (UK)" special and use the "English US" keyboard.
> 3) Do not change keyboard at all.
> 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as
> language but English US keyboard.
> 5) Any other ideas?

- put keyboard selection first and make it affect language

That is if you just want ideas. I'd personally go for (4)

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                Oliver
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Robert Schweikert-4
In reply to this post by Andreas Jaeger-5


On 11/30/2010 04:36 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

> There's in bugzilla a user from Australia. Currently during installation,
> you choose a language at the first screen and then automatically the
> keyboard is changed to the primary keyboard for that language.
>
> He and others from Australia install with language "English (UK)" but uses
> an US keyboard - and apparently the US keyboard is common in most of the
> commonwealth.
>
> Since these users than do not change the keyboard setting, they have a
> system installed that does not work for them with their keyboard.
>
> for details see:
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=656023
>
> Is this a common problem? Should we change it - and has anybody a good idea
> on how to change it?
>
> For me as German, I like the way that if I select "German" as language, I
> get a German keyboard setup automatically, so I do not want to move away
> from that one.
>
> I see right now the following options:
> 1) Leave everything as is and close the bugreport as WONTFIX.
> 2) Handle "English (UK)" special and use the "English US" keyboard.
> 3) Do not change keyboard at all.
> 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as
> language but English US keyboard.
> 5) Any other ideas?

Why not let the user decide? In cases where there is a one to one
mapping, i.e. German use the current behavior. In cases where there is a
one to many mapping provide a selection menu for the keyboard.


Robert

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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Jiri Suchomel
Dne úterý 30 Listopad 2010 11:15:41 Robert Schweikert napsal(a):

> On 11/30/2010 04:36 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> > There's in bugzilla a user from Australia. Currently during installation,
> > you choose a language at the first screen and then automatically the
> > keyboard is changed to the primary keyboard for that language.
> >
> > He and others from Australia install with language "English (UK)" but
> > uses an US keyboard - and apparently the US keyboard is common in most
> > of the commonwealth.
> >
> > Since these users than do not change the keyboard setting, they have a
> > system installed that does not work for them with their keyboard.
> >
> > for details see:
> > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=656023
> >
> > Is this a common problem? Should we change it - and has anybody a good
> > idea on how to change it?
> >
> > For me as German, I like the way that if I select "German" as language, I
> > get a German keyboard setup automatically, so I do not want to move away
> > from that one.
> >
> > I see right now the following options:
> > 1) Leave everything as is and close the bugreport as WONTFIX.
> > 2) Handle "English (UK)" special and use the "English US" keyboard.

Well, this would probably attract another bug reports.

> > 3) Do not change keyboard at all.

Which means, all users would have to choose manually, not just those for whom
the automatic mapping does not help.

> > 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as
> > language but English US keyboard.
> > 5) Any other ideas?
>
> Why not let the user decide? In cases where there is a one to one
> mapping, i.e. German use the current behavior. In cases where there is a
> one to many mapping provide a selection menu for the keyboard.

User can decide now. Language and Keyboard selection is on the same screen so
if user is not satisfied with automatic selection, he can choose differently.

It's just one more click for australian users.

Jiri

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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

C-29
In reply to this post by Andreas Jaeger-5
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 10:36, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> There's in bugzilla a user from Australia. Currently during installation,
> you choose a language at the first screen and then automatically the
> keyboard is changed to the primary keyboard for that language.
>
> He and others from Australia install with language "English (UK)" but uses
> an US keyboard - and apparently the US keyboard is common in most of the
> commonwealth.

I've got the smae issue... my workaround is to use US keyboard, and US
language setting so that my keyboard map is correct... and I put up
with the wrong (aka US) spellings of words.  I can "get away with
this" because I learned to spell in Canada where we like to be
schizophrenic about spelling and use both US and UK rules... I
definitely cannot use the OS properly if I chose UK English and get a
UK keyboard assigned... it's just enough different on the keymap that
it messes things up (makes it very hard to use at least with a US
keyboard layout).


> Is this a common problem? Should we change it - and has anybody a good idea
> on how to change it?

I'd consider it a common problem for all English speaking countries
outside of the US and UK, since as is noted in the bug report... we
all standardised on US keyboards and UK spelling (for the most part...
Canada is a hybrid of US and UK spelling).

Does this affect countries like the Netherlands where they also use US
keyboards... but you can get NL keyboards if you really want.... (I've
seen one.. once).


> I see right now the following options:
> 1) Leave everything as is and close the bugreport as WONTFIX.
> 2) Handle "English (UK)" special and use the "English US" keyboard.
> 3) Do not change keyboard at all.
> 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as
> language but English US keyboard.

This might be the best solution overall... but how many variants do
you add?  English (AU), (CA), (KE), (NI), (IN) etc etc? I think it
might be better to add a single variant that somehow indicates English
(UK) with English (US) keyboard since in most Commonwealth country
cases, the country specific English is, as stated in the bug report,
all UK based (eg Kenya uses UK spelling on US keyboards exactly as
Australia does.. but there's no gain in having multiple locales with
the same settings).  How about English International?  (or something
similar)

C.
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Per Jessen-2
In reply to this post by Jiri Suchomel
Jiri Suchomel wrote:

> User can decide now. Language and Keyboard selection is on the same
> screen so if user is not satisfied with automatic selection, he can
> choose differently.
>
> It's just one more click for australian users.

Yep. Which is the same for many other users - the language selection is
often only a rough indication of the kind of keyboard a user might
have.  When I choose Language = German, there is no way for for YaST to
know that I have a Swiss-German keyboard.

One possible way for YaST to make a better guess would be to use IP
geolocation, maybe via a central service.


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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

C-29
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 12:11, Per Jessen wrote:
> Yep. Which is the same for many other users - the language selection is
> often only a rough indication of the kind of keyboard a user might
> have.  When I choose Language = German, there is no way for for YaST to
> know that I have a Swiss-German keyboard.
>
> One possible way for YaST to make a better guess would be to use IP
> geolocation, maybe via a central service.


Eeeek!  No.. not geolocation :-(  That "technology" is the bane of my
existence.  It can never get it right for me as an English speaker
living in Germany.  I already have to special-order my keyboards from
the Netherlands so I can get US English layout... adding geolocation
will drive expats like me off the deep end (if we aren't there already
:-) )

C.
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Per Jessen-2
In reply to this post by Andreas Jaeger-5
Andreas Jaeger wrote:

> For me as German, I like the way that if I select "German" as
> language, I get a German keyboard setup automatically, so I do not
> want to move away from that one.

With no other information than Language, I think that is the most
reasonable way to do it.

> I see right now the following options:
> 1) Leave everything as is and close the bugreport as WONTFIX.

+1.  Like Jiri said, the keyboard can be changed with a couple of
clicks.

> 2) Handle "English (UK)" special and use the "English US" keyboard.

That would only switch the 2-click burden to the UK openSUSE users.  

> 3) Do not change keyboard at all.

That would be an unnecessary regression.

> 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as
> language but English US keyboard.

Perhaps an option - there is an "en_AU" locale.

> 5) Any other ideas?

Use IP geolocation to make a better guess about the users geographical
location.  Then we could have a lookup-table indexed by
(language,location) that would give a list of the most commonly found
keyboards for that combination.  E.g. "En(UK),AU" -> US (possibly plus
others).


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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Per Jessen-2
In reply to this post by C-29
C wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 12:11, Per Jessen wrote:
>> Yep. Which is the same for many other users - the language selection
>> is often only a rough indication of the kind of keyboard a user might
>> have.  When I choose Language = German, there is no way for for YaST
>> to know that I have a Swiss-German keyboard.
>>
>> One possible way for YaST to make a better guess would be to use IP
>> geolocation, maybe via a central service.
>
>
> Eeeek!  No.. not geolocation :-(  That "technology" is the bane of my
> existence.  It can never get it right for me as an English speaker
> living in Germany.

That's not a problem caused by geolocation though.  That's more likely
caused by poor use of the information.

> I already have to special-order my keyboards from the Netherlands so I
> can get US English layout... adding geolocation will drive expats like
> me off the deep end (if we aren't there already :-) )

If we use the information appropriately, it could help make a more
accurate guess.  95% of people do not leave their own countries to live
anywhere else - the ones who do (e.g. you and I) are the exception.  



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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Stefan Seyfried
In reply to this post by Oliver Neukum-4
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 11:09:24 +0100
Oliver Neukum <[hidden email]> wrote:

> - put keyboard selection first and make it affect language

This would be a clever solution, but not help the australians as they
still would need to select "English (UK)"

> That is if you just want ideas. I'd personally go for (4)

The "English (International)" as mentioned in another mail would probably
be enough.
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Oliver Neukum-4
Am Dienstag, 30. November 2010, 13:26:36 schrieb Stefan Seyfried:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 11:09:24 +0100
> Oliver Neukum <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > - put keyboard selection first and make it affect language
>
> This would be a clever solution, but not help the australians as they
> still would need to select "English (UK)"

Yes, but better the wrong dialect than the wrong keyboard.

> > That is if you just want ideas. I'd personally go for (4)
>
> The "English (International)" as mentioned in another mail would probably
> be enough.

I agree.

        Regards
                Oliver
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Per Jessen-2
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On Tuesday, 2010-11-30 at 12:29 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

> Use IP geolocation to make a better guess about the users geographical
> location.  Then we could have a lookup-table indexed by
> (language,location) that would give a list of the most commonly found
> keyboards for that combination.  E.g. "En(UK),AU" -> US (possibly plus
> others).

There is already a map selection where we choose country for the hour
selection. It could be used for more things.

As long as we can change the automaticaclly choosen defaults - me, I live
in Spain, so I need the Spanish keyboard, but I want programs in English,
so I use the US locale, with further adjustements later to get the coin
set to Euros, decimal separator, etc.

So, click on the country, and set timezone, keyboard, and language. Then
allow the user to change any of them independently (which we can do now).

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
        (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar)

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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Per Jessen-2
Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On Tuesday, 2010-11-30 at 12:29 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:
>
>> Use IP geolocation to make a better guess about the users
>> geographical location.  Then we could have a lookup-table indexed by
>> (language,location) that would give a list of the most commonly found
>> keyboards for that combination.  E.g. "En(UK),AU" -> US (possibly
>> plus others).
>
> There is already a map selection where we choose country for the hour
> selection. It could be used for more things.
> As long as we can change the automaticaclly choosen defaults - me, I
> live in Spain, so I need the Spanish keyboard, but I want programs in
> English, so I use the US locale, with further adjustements later to
> get the coin set to Euros, decimal separator, etc.

Yep, not an uncommon example.  

> So, click on the country, and set timezone, keyboard, and language.
> Then allow the user to change any of them independently (which we can
> do now).

Better still (if we _are_ going to re-arrange this), use geolocation to
make a decent guess first, then set timezone, keyboard, and language
and (obviously) allow the user the change all three.



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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Andreas Jaeger-5
In reply to this post by C-29
On Tuesday 30 November 2010 12:01:03 C wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 10:36, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> [...]
> > > 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK)
as

> > language but English US keyboard.
>
> This might be the best solution overall... but how many variants do
> you add?  English (AU), (CA), (KE), (NI), (IN) etc etc? I think it
> might be better to add a single variant that somehow indicates English
> (UK) with English (US) keyboard since in most Commonwealth country
> cases, the country specific English is, as stated in the bug report,
> all UK based (eg Kenya uses UK spelling on US keyboards exactly as
> Australia does.. but there's no gain in having multiple locales with
> the same settings).  How about English International?  (or something
> similar)

Spelling is one setting, but locale like decimal point and currency is
another one - and those are different...

So which locale should be used? For "English (AU)", we would use en_AU as
locale so that the user gets Australian Dollars instead of English Pounds
(with en_UK).

And should we really add many of these and bloat up the list or follow the
"English International" idea? Or would that just confuse users? it might
not be clear for them that they would get UK spelling ;)

Andreas
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Jeff Mahoney
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On 11/30/2010 09:26 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:

> On Tuesday 30 November 2010 12:01:03 C wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 10:36, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
>> [...]
>>>> 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK)
> as
>>> language but English US keyboard.
>>
>> This might be the best solution overall... but how many variants do
>> you add?  English (AU), (CA), (KE), (NI), (IN) etc etc? I think it
>> might be better to add a single variant that somehow indicates English
>> (UK) with English (US) keyboard since in most Commonwealth country
>> cases, the country specific English is, as stated in the bug report,
>> all UK based (eg Kenya uses UK spelling on US keyboards exactly as
>> Australia does.. but there's no gain in having multiple locales with
>> the same settings).  How about English International?  (or something
>> similar)
>
> Spelling is one setting, but locale like decimal point and currency is
> another one - and those are different...
>
> So which locale should be used? For "English (AU)", we would use en_AU as
> locale so that the user gets Australian Dollars instead of English Pounds
> (with en_UK).
>
> And should we really add many of these and bloat up the list or follow the
> "English International" idea? Or would that just confuse users? it might
> not be clear for them that they would get UK spelling ;)

I really like the geolocation idea integrated with the timezone map.
Point out where you are, and the list can be as long as it needs to be
since it's hidden from most users. Have an expert button for users like
Per or "C" that are among the minority that don't have a setup that
matches the locale.

It's little things like these that make an OS more inviting to novice users.

- -Jeff

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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Oliver Neukum-4
In reply to this post by Andreas Jaeger-5
Am Dienstag, 30. November 2010, 15:26:38 schrieb Andreas Jaeger:
> Spelling is one setting, but locale like decimal point and currency is
> another one - and those are different...

So how do we do this for other odd cases, for example the German
minority in Belgium?
 
> So which locale should be used? For "English (AU)", we would use en_AU as
> locale so that the user gets Australian Dollars instead of English Pounds
> (with en_UK).

What about New Zealand and others?

> And should we really add many of these and bloat up the list or follow the
> "English International" idea? Or would that just confuse users? it might
> not be clear for them that they would get UK spelling ;)

Then call it English(British Commonwealth)

        Regards
                Oliver
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Per Jessen-2
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On Tuesday, 2010-11-30 at 14:54 +0100, Per Jessen wrote:

>> So, click on the country, and set timezone, keyboard, and language.
>> Then allow the user to change any of them independently (which we can
>> do now).
>
> Better still (if we _are_ going to re-arrange this), use geolocation to
> make a decent guess first, then set timezone, keyboard, and language
> and (obviously) allow the user the change all three.

That is what I mean.

Use geolocation, put the map with that default, the user changes the
selection or not, and gets three boxes: timezone, language, keyboard. Not
applied till the user select "apply" (for testing) or Ok or next.

The problem would be what language to use for that first screen - I guess
English. Unless you could put a language selection in grub.

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
        (from 11.2 x86_64 "Emerald" at Telcontar)

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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Graham Smith-9
In reply to this post by Andreas Jaeger-5
On Tue, 30 Nov 2010 20:36:24 Andreas Jaeger wrote:

> There's in bugzilla a user from Australia. Currently during installation,
> you choose a language at the first screen and then automatically the
> keyboard is changed to the primary keyboard for that language.
>
> I see right now the following options:
> 1) Leave everything as is and close the bugreport as WONTFIX.
> 2) Handle "English (UK)" special and use the "English US" keyboard.
> 3) Do not change keyboard at all.
> 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as
> language but English US keyboard.
> 5) Any other ideas?

In the locale section of install you can choose a large number of options for
english settings but unless you are aware of these options you would not know
there is a "en_AU" available.

I think maybe have the drop-down locale list available on that page where you
select the keyboard/language.  

e.g.

en_AG,  en_AU,  en_BE, en_BW, en_CA, en_DK, en_GB, en_HK, en_IE, en_IN, etc

This list can be found under Lnaguage Details
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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Ludwig Nussel
In reply to this post by Jeff Mahoney
Jeff Mahoney wrote:

> On 11/30/2010 09:26 AM, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> > On Tuesday 30 November 2010 12:01:03 C wrote:
> >> On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 10:36, Andreas Jaeger wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>>> 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK)
> > as
> >>> language but English US keyboard.
> >>
> >> This might be the best solution overall... but how many variants do
> >> you add?  English (AU), (CA), (KE), (NI), (IN) etc etc? I think it
> >> might be better to add a single variant that somehow indicates English
> >> (UK) with English (US) keyboard since in most Commonwealth country
> >> cases, the country specific English is, as stated in the bug report,
> >> all UK based (eg Kenya uses UK spelling on US keyboards exactly as
> >> Australia does.. but there's no gain in having multiple locales with
> >> the same settings).  How about English International?  (or something
> >> similar)
> >
> > Spelling is one setting, but locale like decimal point and currency is
> > another one - and those are different...
> >
> > So which locale should be used? For "English (AU)", we would use en_AU as
> > locale so that the user gets Australian Dollars instead of English Pounds
> > (with en_UK).
> >
> > And should we really add many of these and bloat up the list or follow the
> > "English International" idea? Or would that just confuse users? it might
> > not be clear for them that they would get UK spelling ;)
>
> I really like the geolocation idea integrated with the timezone map.
> Point out where you are, and the list can be as long as it needs to be
> since it's hidden from most users. Have an expert button for users like
> Per or "C" that are among the minority that don't have a setup that
> matches the locale.

The timezone screen currently is the third IIRC so it's too late
there. Maybe the map (and only the map) should be made the first
screen instead. Based on what country the user chooses a second
screen could suggest language, keyboard and time zone. The default
selection for the map could indeed be based on geolocation, it's
just a hint that can be changed easily after all.

cu
Ludwig

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Re: Language selection and keyboard during installation - questions for all English installing users

Joaquin Sosa
In reply to this post by Andreas Jaeger-5
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 04:36, Andreas Jaeger <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There's in bugzilla a user from Australia. Currently during installation,
> you choose a language at the first screen and then automatically the
> keyboard is changed to the primary keyboard for that language.
>
> He and others from Australia install with language "English (UK)" but uses
> an US keyboard - and apparently the US keyboard is common in most of the
> commonwealth.
>
> Since these users than do not change the keyboard setting, they have a
> system installed that does not work for them with their keyboard.
>
> for details see:
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=656023
>
> Is this a common problem? Should we change it - and has anybody a good idea
> on how to change it?
>
> For me as German, I like the way that if I select "German" as language, I
> get a German keyboard setup automatically, so I do not want to move away
> from that one.
>
> I see right now the following options:
> 1) Leave everything as is and close the bugreport as WONTFIX.
> 2) Handle "English (UK)" special and use the "English US" keyboard.
> 3) Do not change keyboard at all.
> 4) Add some more locales, like "English (AU)" that use English (UK) as
> language but English US keyboard.
> 5) Any other ideas?
>
> Andreas
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Steal the way MacOS does it?

http://images.digitalmedianet.com/2008/Week_38/fyywzh7p/story/keyboard_id_no.jpg
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