KDE3-4 did teams change?

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KDE3-4 did teams change?

David C. Rankin
List,

        At novell, are the same people that did KDE3 development, bug squashing, etc.
(support) the same folks that are supporting KDE4 or were separate teams used?

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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Rajko M.
On Wednesday 26 November 2008 02:20:45 am David C. Rankin wrote:
> List,
>
> At novell, are the same people that did KDE3 development, bug squashing,
> etc. (support) the same folks that are supporting KDE4 or were separate
> teams used?

They are the same group of KDE developers.

Why do you ask?

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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Basil Chupin-2
Rajko M. wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 November 2008 02:20:45 am David C. Rankin wrote:
>  
>> List,
>>
>> At novell, are the same people that did KDE3 development, bug squashing,
>> etc. (support) the same folks that are supporting KDE4 or were separate
>> teams used?
>>    
>
> They are the same group of KDE developers.
>
> Why do you ask?
>  

I would have thought that this was obvious: why are people being asked
to provide details when they say that they want to see the same features
in KDE3 to be in KDE4. If the team developing KDE4 is the same which
developed KDE3 then....... :-) .


Ciao.


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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

David C. Rankin
In reply to this post by Rajko M.
Rajko M. wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 November 2008 02:20:45 am David C. Rankin wrote:
>> List,
>>
>> At novell, are the same people that did KDE3 development, bug squashing,
>> etc. (support) the same folks that are supporting KDE4 or were separate
>> teams used?
>
> They are the same group of KDE developers.
>
> Why do you ask?
>

        Well it seemed that there was a complete disconnect from the stalwart goals of
a KDE project, efficiency and user-customization. My impression from working
with these guys on Beta5 bugs was that the past goals of KDE have been demoted
to nothing more than luke-warm concerns.

        Providing the most efficient desktop by minimizing the number of extraneous
clicks or key+combo+clicks required has always been a primary concern to the
design and to the devs I've worked with in the past on bug issues. Being the
"Most Customizable Desktop", I was surprised to get ambivalence when asking how
to set my icon text width for konqueror to 525 px. I got a you can't do it
response and that my choices were small, medium and large now???

        It just seemed to me that the old developers that were committed to efficiency
of use and customization were not there anymore and they had been replaced by
techs that didn't know what the goal for the desktop were. That's why I asked.


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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

David C. Rankin
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
Basil Chupin wrote:

> Rajko M. wrote:
>> On Wednesday 26 November 2008 02:20:45 am David C. Rankin wrote:
>>  
>>> List,
>>>
>>> At novell, are the same people that did KDE3 development, bug squashing,
>>> etc. (support) the same folks that are supporting KDE4 or were separate
>>> teams used?
>>>    
>> They are the same group of KDE developers.
>>
>> Why do you ask?
>>  
>
> I would have thought that this was obvious: why are people being asked
> to provide details when they say that they want to see the same features
> in KDE3 to be in KDE4. If the team developing KDE4 is the same which
> developed KDE3 then....... :-) .
>
>
> Ciao.
>
>

Basil, that struck me as odd too. Another thing that was really bothering me
was, if this new desktop was a complete recode and written from the ground up,
why are we seeing the exact same bugs in KDE4 that were present in KDE. The
kdesu/kdesudo bug is a KDE3 bug. If KDE4 is a complete rewrite, why is that bug
still there ......8-P.

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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

David C. Rankin
In reply to this post by David C. Rankin
David C. Rankin wrote:

> Rajko M. wrote:
>> On Wednesday 26 November 2008 02:20:45 am David C. Rankin wrote:
>>> List,
>>>
>>> At novell, are the same people that did KDE3 development, bug squashing,
>>> etc. (support) the same folks that are supporting KDE4 or were separate
>>> teams used?
>> They are the same group of KDE developers.
>>
>> Why do you ask?
>>
>
> Well it seemed that there was a complete disconnect from the stalwart goals of
> a KDE project, efficiency and user-customization. My impression from working
> with these guys on Beta5 bugs was that the past goals of KDE have been demoted
> to nothing more than luke-warm concerns.
>
> Providing the most efficient desktop by minimizing the number of extraneous
> clicks or key+combo+clicks required has always been a primary concern to the
> design and to the devs I've worked with in the past on bug issues. Being the
> "Most Customizable Desktop", I was surprised to get ambivalence when asking how
> to set my icon text width for konqueror to 525 px. I got a you can't do it
> response and that my choices were small, medium and large now???
>
> It just seemed to me that the old developers that were committed to efficiency
> of use and customization were not there anymore and they had been replaced by
> techs that didn't know what the goal for the desktop were. That's why I asked.
>
>

Here is just one example:

https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=445542



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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

James Knott
David C. Rankin wrote:

>> It just seemed to me that the old developers that were committed to efficiency
>> of use and customization were not there anymore and they had been replaced by
>> techs that didn't know what the goal for the desktop were. That's why I asked.
>>
>>
>
> Here is just one example:
>
> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=445542
>
>
>

It strikes me that the people driving KDE 4 are more interested in "Gee
Whiz" features, than function.  I watched a KDE 4 demo last year and I
couldn't believe what was being promoted could be considered an
improvement.  Judging from what I've been reading here, I wasn't far off
the mark.


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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Larry Stotler
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:23 PM, James Knott <[hidden email]> wrote:
> It strikes me that the people driving KDE 4 are more interested in "Gee
> Whiz" features, than function.  I watched a KDE 4 demo last year and I
> couldn't believe what was being promoted could be considered an improvement.
>  Judging from what I've been reading here, I wasn't far off the mark.

Keep in mind that the openSUSE KDE devs are just a part of the overall
KDE team.  While I have also questioned the direction of KDE4, it
seems that we will be stuck with it and with trying to get the useful
KDE3 features added in with all the new "Mac/Vista" "features".  I do
think that some of the devs haven't used a Pentium 3 system in a long
time and don't realize how slow KDE4 is without the newer CPUs and
graphics cards.  It's almost the way Macs went.  You have to have a
specific card for Quartz Extreme and AGP for Core Image(which is a
technical limitation of the PCI bus anyway).

My 2 laptops are a Thinkpad A22p P3/1Ghz/256MB(has a bad RAM slot, but
would max at 512MB) and a Thinkpad X21 P3/700Mhz/384MB(Max RAM).  The
A22p has a Rage 128 based video chip and the X21 has a Mobility chip
in it.
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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Joaquin Sosa
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 13:23, Larry Stotler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:23 PM, James Knott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It strikes me that the people driving KDE 4 are more interested in "Gee
>> Whiz" features, than function.  I watched a KDE 4 demo last year and I
>> couldn't believe what was being promoted could be considered an improvement.
>>  Judging from what I've been reading here, I wasn't far off the mark.
>
> Keep in mind that the openSUSE KDE devs are just a part of the overall
> KDE team.  While I have also questioned the direction of KDE4, it
> seems that we will be stuck with it and with trying to get the useful
> KDE3 features added in with all the new "Mac/Vista" "features".  I do
> think that some of the devs haven't used a Pentium 3 system in a long
> time and don't realize how slow KDE4 is without the newer CPUs and
> graphics cards.  It's almost the way Macs went.  You have to have a
> specific card for Quartz Extreme and AGP for Core Image(which is a
> technical limitation of the PCI bus anyway).
>
> My 2 laptops are a Thinkpad A22p P3/1Ghz/256MB(has a bad RAM slot, but
> would max at 512MB) and a Thinkpad X21 P3/700Mhz/384MB(Max RAM).  The
> A22p has a Rage 128 based video chip and the X21 has a Mobility chip
> in it.

You can't expect the latest software to keep on running on older
machines forever. Maybe keeping 3.5 on those machines is the best
idea? I don't think that Windows Vista or Mac OS X will run "great" on
either of those machines...
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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

John Andersen-2
In reply to this post by James Knott
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:23 AM, James Knott <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It strikes me that the people driving KDE 4 are more interested in "Gee
> Whiz" features, than function.

And that might be cool if the Gee Whiz features actually provided some
functionality that was previously lacking.

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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

John Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Joaquin Sosa
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Andrew Joakimsen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You can't expect the latest software to keep on running on older
> machines forever. Maybe keeping 3.5 on those machines is the best
> idea? I don't think that Windows Vista or Mac OS X will run "great" on
> either of those machines...
> --


Vista is the model we are following now?




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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Herbert Graeber-2
Am Mittwoch 03 Dezember 2008 21:10:13 schrieb John Andersen:
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Andrew Joakimsen <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > You can't expect the latest software to keep on running on older
> > machines forever. Maybe keeping 3.5 on those machines is the best
> > idea? I don't think that Windows Vista or Mac OS X will run "great" on
> > either of those machines...
> > --
>
> Vista is the model we are following now?

No, the opposite. Vista keeps all of its past alive.

KDE4 tries to port everything worth doing things the new way. Unfortunately
this needs mcu hresources in people and time, so not everything is read from
the start and some things will be left behind.

A clean KDE4 (without anything from KDE left) will need less resources then
KDE3 alone.

BTW: This is the wrong list for such things. The decision to go this way has
been made by the KDE project, not by openSUSE. Yes there are KDE developers on
this list, but only a small fraction of them.

Cheers,
Herbert
(Repeating in short what has been written many times here...)

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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Larry Stotler
In reply to this post by Joaquin Sosa
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Andrew Joakimsen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You can't expect the latest software to keep on running on older
> machines forever. Maybe keeping 3.5 on those machines is the best
> idea?

I do get tired of hearing this.  The KDE team has stated that KDE4
uses less resources and less RAM than KDE3.  How is that an indication
that I need to replace my machines.

>I don't think that Windows Vista or Mac OS X will run "great" on
>either of those machines...

Well, I wouldn't try Vista and it would be too much work to run OS X
on it.  However, I have a copy of OS X 10.4 Tiger on a G3/400 desktop
and it runs fine.  I wouldn't try 10.5 Leapord, but Tiger is decent.

So, what, we will always keep needing more hardware reqs?  Sorry,
that's BS.  I can load Win98SE on my Thinkpad 380XD P2/233/96MB(MAX)
and use Firefox 2.0 and browse the web just fine(other than
flash/videos - Text is great) and type documents just fine with
Wordpad.  What takes the resources is making the desktop "pretty" and
having it "respond" to what you are doing.  Personally, I want the
program to run when I click it.  I don't need windows to "grow" and
"shrink" when I minimize/maximize.  I want it to go away or come back.
 It's like hiding the taskbar.  I have the buttons on both sides and
when I click them, it dissappears.  No animation.  Other than the
window redrawing to fill in the new space, it's fast.  Doesn't matter
if I'm on my Celeron E1200 overclocked to 3.2 Ghz or my Dual P3/Xeon
500Mhz Desktop.
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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Larry Stotler
In reply to this post by John Andersen-2
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:08 PM, John Andersen <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And that might be cool if the Gee Whiz features actually provided some
> functionality that was previously lacking.

Agreed.  Show me gee whiz and I'll show you a time waster.  It's like
rotating through desktops.  You could just click on them on the
taskbar and find what you want faster than that rotate will show you.
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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Larry Stotler
In reply to this post by Herbert Graeber-2
On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Herbert Graeber <[hidden email]> wrote:
> No, the opposite. Vista keeps all of its past alive.

Ah, no.  Vista has broken with enough hardware and software that most
businesses can't "upgrade" to it.

> KDE4 tries to port everything worth doing things the new way. Unfortunately
> this needs mcu hresources in people and time, so not everything is read from
> the start and some things will be left behind.

What was so wrong with the old way?  Oh wait, they wanted to add
bling, and KDE3 couldn't do it.  That's the motivation.

> A clean KDE4 (without anything from KDE left) will need less resources then
> KDE3 alone.

That's the rumor.  So far I haven't seen it.

> BTW: This is the wrong list for such things. The decision to go this way has
> been made by the KDE project, not by openSUSE. Yes there are KDE developers on
> this list, but only a small fraction of them.

No thanks.  I don't need to butt heads against people who have already
decided that KDE4 is better and have forgotten what made KDE3 great.

Give me easy options to turn off eye-candy.  And no, I don't NEED
widgets.  They are useless to me and annoying.  Like the OS X and
Vista Dock.  Is KDE4 going to have a way to emulate the KDE3 desktop?
If so, then what was the point?
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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Cristian Rodríguez
In reply to this post by Larry Stotler
Larry Stotler escribió:

> I do get tired of hearing this.  

Well,  everyone gets tired of reality once a while no ? ;-)


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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Herbert Graeber-2
In reply to this post by Larry Stotler
Am Mittwoch 03 Dezember 2008 23:27:25 schrieb Larry Stotler:
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:34 PM, Herbert Graeber <[hidden email]>
wrote:
> > No, the opposite. Vista keeps all of its past alive.
>
> Ah, no.  Vista has broken with enough hardware and software that most
> businesses can't "upgrade" to it.

Yes, but nevertheless it carries much of its past with it.

> > KDE4 tries to port everything worth doing things the new way.
> > Unfortunately this needs mcu hresources in people and time, so not
> > everything is read from the start and some things will be left behind.
>
> What was so wrong with the old way?  Oh wait, they wanted to add
> bling, and KDE3 couldn't do it.  That's the motivation.

This bling is neccessary, to meet expectations of potential new users. The
only thing that's wrong with the old way, that it may be in the way, when
there is a new more flexible method, to achive the same or better results.

> > A clean KDE4 (without anything from KDE left) will need less resources
> > then KDE3 alone.
>
> That's the rumor.  So far I haven't seen it.

Sure that's the future. Currently ther are some things, where one needs KDE3
applications to fill the gap.

> > BTW: This is the wrong list for such things. The decision to go this way
> > has been made by the KDE project, not by openSUSE. Yes there are KDE
> > developers on this list, but only a small fraction of them.
>
> No thanks.  I don't need to butt heads against people who have already
> decided that KDE4 is better and have forgotten what made KDE3 great.

But to get the features, you want, you have to convince the KDE developers.
The openSUSE project can only keep KDE3 alive for another version of the
distribution, but some day KDE3 is really dead and in terms of progress it is
already dead right now.

> Give me easy options to turn off eye-candy.  And no, I don't NEED
> widgets.  They are useless to me and annoying.  Like the OS X and
> Vista Dock.  Is KDE4 going to have a way to emulate the KDE3 desktop?
> If so, then what was the point?

Use a folder plasmoid, that covers the whole desktop and some plasmoids in the
panel instead of task icons and you have nearly the same like a KDE3 desktop.

Sure, there are some things missing. KDE devolpers working for Novel have
backported many features of KDE 4.2, because openSUSE users demand them. But
have alokk on http://planetkde.org: Not all KDE developers like that, because
they will get many additional bug reports because of this.

Everything has two sides...

Herbert
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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Fred A. Miller
In reply to this post by Larry Stotler
Larry Stotler wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 1:23 PM, James Knott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It strikes me that the people driving KDE 4 are more interested in "Gee
>> Whiz" features, than function.  I watched a KDE 4 demo last year and I
>> couldn't believe what was being promoted could be considered an improvement.
>>  Judging from what I've been reading here, I wasn't far off the mark.
>
> Keep in mind that the openSUSE KDE devs are just a part of the overall
> KDE team.  While I have also questioned the direction of KDE4, it
> seems that we will be stuck with it and with trying to get the useful
> KDE3 features added in with all the new "Mac/Vista" "features".  I do
> think that some of the devs haven't used a Pentium 3 system in a long
> time and don't realize how slow KDE4 is without the newer CPUs and
> graphics cards.  It's almost the way Macs went.  You have to have a
> specific card for Quartz Extreme and AGP for Core Image(which is a
> technical limitation of the PCI bus anyway).

[snip]

Further, the economy world wide ISN'T going to get any better anytime
soon, thus new PC sales have been and WILL slump even further. MOST new
PC sales won't be for high end boxen. Bluntly, the dev's had better get
their heads out of the clouds and get a quick reality check!! Even
MickySoft HAS already gotten with the program, or so it would seem, in
preparation for their 'Bloze 7 release. They know full well that they
MUST reduce CPU and GPU mandates.

Fred

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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Fred A. Miller
In reply to this post by John Andersen-2
John Andersen wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 10:23 AM, James Knott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> It strikes me that the people driving KDE 4 are more interested in "Gee
>> Whiz" features, than function.
>
> And that might be cool if the Gee Whiz features actually provided some
> functionality that was previously lacking.

Therein lies the problem.....they DON'T! KDE 3.5, as has been noted by
others, IS the most user definable desktop ever!! If 4.* isn't as
configurable, then the devs have failed, and failed miserably IMHO!
There ISN'T any excuse for replacing configurability and features for
glitz.......PERIOD!! It is inexcusable.

Fred

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than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to
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deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks
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Re: KDE3-4 did teams change?

Patrick Shanahan-2
In reply to this post by Larry Stotler
* Larry Stotler <[hidden email]> [12-03-08 17:22]:
>
> So, what, we will always keep needing more hardware reqs?  Sorry,
> that's BS.  I can load Win98SE on my Thinkpad 380XD P2/233/96MB(MAX)
> and use Firefox 2.0 and browse the web just fine(other than
> flash/videos - Text is great) and type documents just fine with
> Wordpad.  

If that makes you happy, then by all means....

> What takes the resources is making the desktop "pretty" and having it
> "respond" to what you are doing.  Personally, I want the program to
> run when I click it.  I don't need windows to "grow" and "shrink" when
> I minimize/maximize.  I want it to go away or come back. It's like
> hiding the taskbar.  I have the buttons on both sides and when I click
> them, it dissappears.  No animation.  Other than the window redrawing
> to fill in the new space, it's fast.  Doesn't matter if I'm on my
> Celeron E1200 overclocked to 3.2 Ghz or my Dual P3/Xeon 500Mhz
> Desktop.

Then there is always icewm and twm and .... which will have no
problems on minimal/older hardware.  It's not like you have to drive a
Cadilac just because you can afford it/or not  :^)

You *do* have a choice, that's what linux stands for.

You chooses yer poison
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