KDE 4.2 Review

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KDE 4.2 Review

PerfectReign
http://adymo.blogspot.com/2009/01/kde4-review-from-inside-out-part-1.html


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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

dotancohen
2009/1/14 Kai Ponte <[hidden email]>:
> http://adymo.blogspot.com/2009/01/kde4-review-from-inside-out-part-1.html
>

Very honest write up. I find it surprising that he did not file bugs
on the issues that he mentions, rather, that he "hopes" the issues
will be solved in KDE 4.3.

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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

John Andersen-2
On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Dotan Cohen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> 2009/1/14 Kai Ponte <[hidden email]>:
>> http://adymo.blogspot.com/2009/01/kde4-review-from-inside-out-part-1.html
>>
>
> Very honest write up. I find it surprising that he did not file bugs
> on the issues that he mentions, rather, that he "hopes" the issues
> will be solved in KDE 4.3.
>
> --
> Dotan Cohen

When even KDE developers don't file bugs it says something about the
value of that process.


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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

PerfectReign
John Andersen wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 11:00 PM, Dotan Cohen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>> 2009/1/14 Kai Ponte <[hidden email]>:
>>    
>>> http://adymo.blogspot.com/2009/01/kde4-review-from-inside-out-part-1.html
>>>
>>>      
>> Very honest write up. I find it surprising that he did not file bugs
>> on the issues that he mentions, rather, that he "hopes" the issues
>> will be solved in KDE 4.3.
>>
>> --
>> Dotan Cohen
>>    
>
> When even KDE developers don't file bugs it says something about the
> value of that process.
>
>
>  

No - that's normal.

As a former developer and now a manager of teams of developers, I know
that not all bugs get formally listed. That's just human nature.

It goes something like this:

coder 1: Oops! I found the dual-iniline-ifiniferator-widget control
doesn't symbolically link to the static class output in a serialized manner.
<cubicle junkie looks over shoulder>
coder 1: Yo! Bob! Can you check the references in the ifiniferator class?
<long pause - much Jolt is consumed>
coder 2: Duuude...
<anohter pause>
.coder 2: ..okay! Got it! I'll fix it now.
coder 1: Thanks!

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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

dotancohen
In reply to this post by John Andersen-2
2009/1/14 John Andersen <[hidden email]>:
> When even KDE developers don't file bugs it says something about the
> value of that process.
>

Not really. I file KDE bugs all the time, and most are taken care of.

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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

Fred A. Miller
In reply to this post by dotancohen
Dotan Cohen wrote:
> 2009/1/14 Kai Ponte <[hidden email]>:
>> http://adymo.blogspot.com/2009/01/kde4-review-from-inside-out-part-1.html
>>
>
> Very honest write up. I find it surprising that he did not file bugs
> on the issues that he mentions, rather, that he "hopes" the issues
> will be solved in KDE 4.3.

'Be better if before. ;) After an update yesterday AND today, a new
nVidia driver, the logon screen is VERY blocky....large "blocks" before
finally coming up, and the 3D (GL) screen savers are back to coming up
in a small window in the upper left corner.........again! I have this on
a number of systems.

Fred

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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

dotancohen
2009/1/15 Fred A. Miller <[hidden email]>:
> After an update yesterday AND today, a new
> nVidia driver, the logon screen is VERY blocky....large "blocks" before
> finally coming up, and the 3D (GL) screen savers are back to coming up
> in a small window in the upper left corner.........again! I have this on
> a number of systems.
>
> Fred
>

Please start a new thread on that topic, and don't forget to post a
link to the bug report. Thanks.

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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

M Harris-2
In reply to this post by PerfectReign
On Wednesday 14 January 2009 10:35, Kai Ponte wrote:
> No - that's normal.
        thanks for the chuckle Kai...


        ... been there, did that...   :)








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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

C-29
In reply to this post by Fred A. Miller
> After an update yesterday AND today, a new
> nVidia driver, the logon screen is VERY blocky....large "blocks" before
> finally coming up,

I get this too.  Using nVidia 180.22 binary driver and the lates KDE
4.2 Beta builds from teh Factory repositoy.  For the first few seconds
of bringing either the login screen or the desktop, there are huge
blocks with random graphics... it looks similar to what happens when
texture maps go crazy in a game.  After those initial few seconds it
is gone and the normal desktop is painted properly.

C.
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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

Pete Connolly
On Thursday 15 January 2009 08:08:11 Clayton wrote:

> > After an update yesterday AND today, a new
> > nVidia driver, the logon screen is VERY blocky....large "blocks" before
> > finally coming up,
>
> I get this too.  Using nVidia 180.22 binary driver and the lates KDE
> 4.2 Beta builds from teh Factory repositoy.  For the first few seconds
> of bringing either the login screen or the desktop, there are huge
> blocks with random graphics... it looks similar to what happens when
> texture maps go crazy in a game.  After those initial few seconds it
> is gone and the normal desktop is painted properly.
>
> C.

Same here.  The blocks seem to occur only with the 180.22 binary, reverting to
the 177.82 driver doesn't show these artifacts.

Cheers

Pete


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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

C-29
>> I get this too.  Using nVidia 180.22 binary driver and the lates KDE
>> 4.2 Beta builds from teh Factory repositoy.  For the first few seconds
>> of bringing either the login screen or the desktop, there are huge
>> blocks with random graphics... it looks similar to what happens when
>> texture maps go crazy in a game.  After those initial few seconds it
>> is gone and the normal desktop is painted properly.
>>
>
> Same here.  The blocks seem to occur only with the 180.22 binary, reverting to
> the 177.82 driver doesn't show these artifacts.

But.... I find the 177.82 binary driver to be rather slow with KDE4.
It might be me imagining things though... but I find the 180.22 driver
to be a lot better with KDE4, and with OpenGL gaming than anything in
the 177.xx series of drivers.  I can put up with the weird blocky
thing since I rarely log out of the KDE4 desktop.  Would be
interesting to find out why it does this though....

C.
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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

PerfectReign
In reply to this post by M Harris-2
M Harris wrote:
> On Wednesday 14 January 2009 10:35, Kai Ponte wrote:
>  
>> No - that's normal.
>>    
> thanks for the chuckle Kai...
>
>
> ... been there, did that...   :)
>  
Unfortunately, I got the following in my inbox today, confirming that
the KDE devs are outright ignoring the bugs list.

Grrrrrr!

http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c70

http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c74


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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

Dominique Leuenberger-2
>>> On 1/15/2009 at  2:50 PM, Kai Ponte <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Unfortunately, I got the following in my inbox today, confirming that
> the KDE devs are outright ignoring the bugs list.
>
> Grrrrrr!
>
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c70
>
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c74

Reading this tells me: "Yes, we know it's a request, but the code is to cluttered to fix it and as nobody pays me to do this task which I myself
don't think is useful and I don't need myself, I'm not working on this. If you think you need it, submit a patch and I'll gladly review and apply it.
If you need help to get started, I'm also available to you."

Where exactly is the problem? Didn't you understand yet how FOSS works? It's not a regression since older versions (in fact it got better)...

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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

C-29
>> Unfortunately, I got the following in my inbox today, confirming that
>> the KDE devs are outright ignoring the bugs list.
>>
>> Grrrrrr!
>>
>> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c70
>>
>> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c74
>
> Reading this tells me: "Yes, we know it's a request, but the code is to cluttered to fix it and as nobody pays me to do this task which I myself
> don't think is useful and I don't need myself, I'm not working on this. If you think you need it, submit a patch and I'll gladly review and apply it.
> If you need help to get started, I'm also available to you."
>
> Where exactly is the problem? Didn't you understand yet how FOSS works? It's not a regression since older versions (in fact it got better)...

I was wondering the same thing.  Comment 64 in that long bug entry
seems pretty reasonable to me.  I don't see that as outright
ignoring... there was a clear and well commented reply from the
developer.  he explained his position, and encouraged people to
contribute, and offered his assistance.  What's the problem?

C.
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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

dotancohen
In reply to this post by PerfectReign
2009/1/15 Kai Ponte <[hidden email]>:

> M Harris wrote:
>> On Wednesday 14 January 2009 10:35, Kai Ponte wrote:
>>
>>> No - that's normal.
>>>
>>       thanks for the chuckle Kai...
>>
>>
>>       ... been there, did that...   :)
>>
> Unfortunately, I got the following in my inbox today, confirming that
> the KDE devs are outright ignoring the bugs list.
>
> Grrrrrr!
>
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c70
>
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c74
>

That is pretty disgusting, the way you hijack those bug reports. I
think that you should be kicked off BKO, personally. BKO is for filing
errors and feature requests. It is not a place to discuss Thunderbird
nor a Thunderbird support forum. Nor is it a place for whining.

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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

Sven Burmeister
In reply to this post by Dominique Leuenberger-2
Am Donnerstag, 15. Januar 2009 15:07:27 schrieb Dominique Leuenberger:

> >>> On 1/15/2009 at  2:50 PM, Kai Ponte <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Unfortunately, I got the following in my inbox today, confirming that
> > the KDE devs are outright ignoring the bugs list.
> >
> > Grrrrrr!
> >
> > http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c70
> >
> > http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c74

> Where exactly is the problem? Didn't you understand yet how FOSS works?
> It's not a regression since older versions (in fact it got better)...

The problem is that some think it is a must have and hence act according to
it. They are convinced that it is common sense that this feature/bug must be
implemented/fixed ASAP, because anything else would drive away users and make
that application completely useless. If you think within those lines, their
behaviour makes sense. If you apply the "code rules" or "offer a bounty or
implement it yourself" view, then it does not.

It all depends on your Weltanschauung.

Sven
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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

PerfectReign
In reply to this post by dotancohen
Dotan Cohen wrote:

> 2009/1/15 Kai Ponte <[hidden email]>:
>  
>> M Harris wrote:
>>    
>>> On Wednesday 14 January 2009 10:35, Kai Ponte wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>> No - that's normal.
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>       thanks for the chuckle Kai...
>>>
>>>
>>>       ... been there, did that...   :)
>>>
>>>      
>> Unfortunately, I got the following in my inbox today, confirming that
>> the KDE devs are outright ignoring the bugs list.
>>
>> Grrrrrr!
>>
>> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c70
>>
>> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c74
>>
>>    
>
> That is pretty disgusting, the way you hijack those bug reports. I
> think that you should be kicked off BKO, personally. BKO is for filing
> errors and feature requests. It is not a place to discuss Thunderbird
> nor a Thunderbird support forum. Nor is it a place for whining.
>
>  
IMO - this is how developers and users should interact. I've seen all
kinds of interaction as I've been doing same for close to twenty years.
There's nothing disgusting about it.

I am not whining nor hijacking anything. I am using thunderbird (and
outlook) as examples of programs with features I'd like to see.

I've yet to see anyone say that this feature exists in KMail 4.x yet.



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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

Bugzilla from pandarsson@yahoo.com
On Thursday 15 January 2009 3:39:25 pm Kai Ponte wrote:

> Dotan Cohen wrote:
> > 2009/1/15 Kai Ponte <[hidden email]>:
> >> M Harris wrote:
> >> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c70
> >>
> >> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=86423#c74
> >
> > That is pretty disgusting, the way you hijack those bug reports. I
> > think that you should be kicked off BKO, personally. BKO is for filing
> > errors and feature requests. It is not a place to discuss Thunderbird
> > nor a Thunderbird support forum. Nor is it a place for whining.
>
> IMO - this is how developers and users should interact. I've seen all
> kinds of interaction as I've been doing same for close to twenty years.
> There's nothing disgusting about it.
>
> I am not whining nor hijacking anything. I am using thunderbird (and
> outlook) as examples of programs with features I'd like to see.
>
> I've yet to see anyone say that this feature exists in KMail 4.x yet.

So file a bug report.  Oh, wait.  It's already there.

There are different proper channels for different things.  When you make a bug
report, the only comments it needs is further information on the bug or
whatever.  Making pleas, arguments and "me too" posts are abusing the system.  
There are other avenues for those.  If someone doesn't know the first time and
makes a mistake, that's forgivable.  But when they are corrected, everyone who
posts after that either needs to learn to read or to pay attention.

Everyone gets that you and a lot of other people (including myself) would like
this feature.  Sadly, some of the people who want this feature don't get what
bug reports are for.  I don't mind that some people are slow, but when they
start to abuse a system, it *will* ruin things for others if a stop isn't put
to it.

For what it's worth, I think if people actually read the comments that are
there, they'll realize they have no need to make further ones.
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Re: KDE 4.2 Review

Pete Connolly
In reply to this post by C-29
On Thursday 15 January 2009 10:45:52 Clayton wrote:

> >> I get this too.  Using nVidia 180.22 binary driver and the lates KDE
> >> 4.2 Beta builds from teh Factory repositoy.  For the first few seconds
> >> of bringing either the login screen or the desktop, there are huge
> >> blocks with random graphics... it looks similar to what happens when
> >> texture maps go crazy in a game.  After those initial few seconds it
> >> is gone and the normal desktop is painted properly.
> >
> > Same here.  The blocks seem to occur only with the 180.22 binary,
> > reverting to the 177.82 driver doesn't show these artifacts.
>
> But.... I find the 177.82 binary driver to be rather slow with KDE4.
> It might be me imagining things though... but I find the 180.22 driver
> to be a lot better with KDE4, and with OpenGL gaming than anything in
> the 177.xx series of drivers.  I can put up with the weird blocky
> thing since I rarely log out of the KDE4 desktop.  Would be
> interesting to find out why it does this though....
>
> C.

Yep, you're spot on Clayton - the 177.82 binary is pretty slow in comparison.  
It looks like the 180.22 driver has an initialisation problem, in that I can
see remnants of previous KDE screens on the start up in the little blocks that
display.  I've have to do some tests on a cold boot, but either way it's not a
major problem.  It only appears for about .5 of a second.

The screensaver issue is a bigger thing for me, but I don't really use OpenGL
screensavers much.  I'll search for a filing at bugs.kde.org to see if its has
been raised.

Cheers

Pete


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