Is it fair to conclude that......

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Is it fair to conclude that......

Basil Chupin-2
....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?

BC

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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Roger Oberholtzer
On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 16:55 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
> ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
> who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?

My laptop install went off without a hitch. Two desktop systems are the
ones with problems. The biggest kde4-related one is
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=559872 which is happening on
a desktop system.



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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

James Knott
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
Basil Chupin wrote:
> ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
> who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?
>
> BC
>
>    
I haven't installed 11.2 on anything yet, but my complaints with 11.1
came after installing on a desktop computer.  Laptop use is also
important for me, but if 11.2 fails on the desktop, it won't even be
considered for my laptop.  I really have my doubts about the way KDE is
going.

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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Gustav Degreef
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
On 12/4/09, Basil Chupin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
>  who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?

My experience was that 11.2 installed without any significant problems
on my wife's hp hdx laptop.  It is a brand new machine and all of the
important hardware (wifi, webcam, NVidia card, etc) worked out of the
box or with minor software downloads from the official and community
repos. Flash, Java, and all the other sowftware she uses work better
than it has for her with 10.3 on an older machine.  I needed very
little fiddling to get it set up.  And she is not a tech person,
though has been using linux for 10 years.  I'm only hesitating to put
it on my hp dv5t because it has taken me time and effort to get 11.0
just the way I like.  I'm tempted but also may wait till 11.3.  I've
no experience with 11.2 on a desktop yet.

Gustav
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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Roger Oberholtzer
On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 22:10 +0500, Gustav Degreef wrote:

> My experience was that 11.2 installed without any significant problems
> on my wife's hp hdx laptop.  It is a brand new machine and all of the
> important hardware (wifi, webcam, NVidia card, etc) worked out of the
> box or with minor software downloads from the official and community
> repos. Flash, Java, and all the other sowftware she uses work better
> than it has for her with 10.3 on an older machine.  I needed very
> little fiddling to get it set up.  And she is not a tech person,
> though has been using linux for 10 years.  I'm only hesitating to put
> it on my hp dv5t because it has taken me time and effort to get 11.0
> just the way I like.  I'm tempted but also may wait till 11.3.  I've
> no experience with 11.2 on a desktop yet.

I always lay out my disk like this:

partition 1: OS 1
partition 2: OS 2
partition 3: swap
partition 4: /home

Then, I install the new OS to the one I am not enamored of. When/if it
seems nice, I start using it. Until then I always have the good one as
the default. This also allows me to compare various setting files
between them, as I can mount the old one somewhere in the net one. As to
my login, I make a test user for the new OS so I do not mess up my
settings. This always lets me try the new thing, while keeping the old.
With disk sizes and costs, this is a very reasonable setup.

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to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll
want something new.  -- Steve Jobs

Roger Oberholtzer

Ramböll RST/OPQ

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P.O. Box 17009
SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden

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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

James Knott
Roger Oberholtzer wrote:

>
> I always lay out my disk like this:
>
> partition 1: OS 1
> partition 2: OS 2
> partition 3: swap
> partition 4: /home
>
>
>    
Ummm...  Shouldn't that be "partition 2: OS/2"?  ;-)

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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Larry Stotler
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:11 PM, James Knott <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Ummm...  Shouldn't that be "partition 2: OS/2"?  ;-)

If it was still viable I would be using it now....But, I moved to
Linux because of lack of support.

KDE until KDE4 was the most like the Workplace shell of many of the desktops.

As for problems on the laptop, I did install it on my Thinkpad A22m.
But, it wasn't the laptop that was the issue.  It's that KDE4 is just
too damn confusing for a longtime KDE user like me to make it work
like I'm used to.  So long as I can still use KDE3 I guess I will do
so.  All of the new "features" of KDE4 aren't anything I care about:
Semantic Desktop(whatever that's supposed to be) widgets,
eye-candy/bling, etc.  And the fact that it's noticeably slower on
older hardware is bad as well.

I have a newer Pentium M based laptop(which I'm actually used ATM),
but It has Win on it since I'm trying to sell it(horrible keyboard to
say the least).  Looking at a newer Thinkpad, but.....
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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Mike McMullin
In reply to this post by James Knott
On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 11:09 -0500, James Knott wrote:

> Basil Chupin wrote:
> > ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
> > who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?
> >
> > BC
> >
> >    
> I haven't installed 11.2 on anything yet, but my complaints with 11.1
> came after installing on a desktop computer.  Laptop use is also
> important for me, but if 11.2 fails on the desktop, it won't even be
> considered for my laptop.  I really have my doubts about the way KDE is
> going.

  Funnily enough after installing 11.2, I started longing for the
"classic" gnome UI (that you get with Fedora and Ubuntu) , and not the
Novell style, which I just don't find appealing.

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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

James Knott
Mike McMullin wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 11:09 -0500, James Knott wrote:
>    
>> Basil Chupin wrote:
>>      
>>> ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
>>> who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?
>>>
>>> BC
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> I haven't installed 11.2 on anything yet, but my complaints with 11.1
>> came after installing on a desktop computer.  Laptop use is also
>> important for me, but if 11.2 fails on the desktop, it won't even be
>> considered for my laptop.  I really have my doubts about the way KDE is
>> going.
>>      
>    Funnily enough after installing 11.2, I started longing for the
> "classic" gnome UI (that you get with Fedora and Ubuntu) , and not the
> Novell style, which I just don't find appealing.
>
>    
I hate it when people ruin something good by "improving" it.  While KDE
3 may have reached a dead end, they should have given a bit more thought
to what was going into KDE 4.  So far, I haven't cared for what I've
seen of it.  Also, with 11.1, boot on lan failed to work and I also
couldn't use XDMCP to access the 11.1 computer from 11.0.

Now, if only I could find some way to keep my cat from sleeping on my
ThinkPad.  ;-)

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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Allen Benter
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 16:55 +1100, Basil Chupin wrote:
> ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
> who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?

I know it's not KDE, but I clean installed (only OS) 11.2 with Gnome on
an Asus R2H laptop/tablet, and it was very flakey such that I was
considering removing it.  I did another clean install, after first
installing Windows 7 on the machine (for touchscreen use), and now it is
running beautifully.  This install is so near perfect - touchscreen,
dual monitor support, hardware support, apps available (I could go on) -
that I still have not booted into Windows 7, and can't see myself doing
so.

Allen


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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Bugzilla from jlturriff@centurytel.net
In reply to this post by Larry Stotler
        I didn't realize it, but while doing some research I discovered that OS/2 is
still available, albeit with a different name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os/2

Leslie

On Friday 04 December 2009 13:14:34 Larry Stotler wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:11 PM, James Knott <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Ummm...  Shouldn't that be "partition 2: OS/2"?  ;-)
>
> If it was still viable I would be using it now....But, I moved to
> Linux because of lack of support.
>
> KDE until KDE4 was the most like the Workplace shell of many of the
> desktops.
>
> As for problems on the laptop, I did install it on my Thinkpad A22m.
> But, it wasn't the laptop that was the issue.  It's that KDE4 is just
> too damn confusing for a longtime KDE user like me to make it work
> like I'm used to.  So long as I can still use KDE3 I guess I will do
> so.  All of the new "features" of KDE4 aren't anything I care about:
> Semantic Desktop(whatever that's supposed to be) widgets,
> eye-candy/bling, etc.  And the fact that it's noticeably slower on
> older hardware is bad as well.
>
> I have a newer Pentium M based laptop(which I'm actually used ATM),
> but It has Win on it since I'm trying to sell it(horrible keyboard to
> say the least).  Looking at a newer Thinkpad, but.....


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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Fred A. Miller
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
On 12/04/2009 12:55 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
> ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
> who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?
>
>  
That may be a fair assessment because of 2 reoccurring problems that
normally
don't affect desktop systems......wifi and poorly supported video, like ATI.

Fred

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to abuse them, which would include their own government."
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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

David Haller-4
In reply to this post by Mike McMullin
Hello,

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009, Mike McMullin wrote:

>On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 11:09 -0500, James Knott wrote:
>> Basil Chupin wrote:
>> > ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
>> > who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?
>> >    
>> I haven't installed 11.2 on anything yet, but my complaints with 11.1
>> came after installing on a desktop computer.  Laptop use is also
>> important for me, but if 11.2 fails on the desktop, it won't even be
>> considered for my laptop.  I really have my doubts about the way KDE is
>> going.
>
>  Funnily enough after installing 11.2, I started longing for the
>"classic" gnome UI (that you get with Fedora and Ubuntu) , and not the
>Novell style, which I just don't find appealing.

Oh please, guys (and gals)! Do not blame shortcomings of KDE or Gnome
in whichever version on openSUSE! Regardless of the fact that
Novell/SuSE may alter some defaults (themes etc.) or whatever.

I personally couldn't care less about what's happening with either
desktop, as I use WindowMaker. And my 11.2 runs quite smooth, thank
you very much, even though I did an upgrade from 11.1 32bit to 11.2
64bit, using a minimally unpacked ISO to boot+install from HD. And
despite the fact that I made a couple of mistakes in the process! And,
as far as I've used them thus far, KDE/QT and Gnome/Gtk apps run quite
well under oS 11.2/WindowMaker, as much as they used to (or ever do or
will), e.g. k3b.

So, complain about KDE $whatever, or Gnome $whatever under $whatever
openSUSE version, but don't complain about openSUSE itself! Only do
complain, when a change done by SUSE is actually the culprit ...

Oh, and it's not that I haven't got anything to bitch about 11.2 (and
older), but the stuff that really bugs me is basically independent of
the distribution (e.g. udev[1], bash-completion (I've disabled
it)[2]). I don't blame that stuff on SUSE. As I know it's from
"upstream". I'd get that crap on Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu, $whatever
too. And I don't have time to do an LFS for that box that runs oS
$current.

My main box runs a homespun bastard dubbed "Hallerlix" (not by me
originally), which started out, over 10 years ago, as a SuSE 6.2, and
which is now very much bastardized and updated. And which fits _my_
needs quite exactly. Only some stuff that doesn't compile with a not
*that* old gcc-3.3.5 is missing, primarily libboost and dependent
stuff. Currently, I'm wrestling with compiling a new "current"
gcc-4.4.0[3] with the available gcc-3.3.5, no luck thus far.

Oh, and since a few days ago, I have a scripted-away sudo-chroot to
some ubuntu glibc[4] dir for a binary-only-app that requires a glibc
newer that I've got ;) Yay!

-dnh

[1] Fuck it! Sideways! I had to replace the MoBo and thus, the MAC of
    the NIC changed. I only stumbled on eth0 being tied to the old MAC
    in the fucking udev confs. What the fuck were they smoking?
    Windows Manuals^W^Wprinted-out Windows helpfiles?
    What the fuck IS it anyway with imitating Windows stupidities?

[2] e.g. neither me nor mplayer care about the extension of a file,
    another Windows stupidity, and if I have only foo.bar in a
    directory, which happens to be an mp3, ac3, avi, mpeg, flv, or
    whatever you may have that mplayer can play, I want <TAB> to
    expand mpla<TAB>f<TAB> to 'mplayer foo.bar'. Lists of filename
    extensions are _always_ doomed to be incomplete and/or wrong. Most
    likely both.

    Well, actually, I didn't disable it completely. Currently, it only
    expands yast2 arguments though. Haven't got around to enable more
    options/arguments for other apps due to lack of interest and time.
    Simple, plain old command and filename completion suffices.

    Complex commands get "scripted" or aliased away. Which has led to
    rather complex wrapper-scripts around e.g. mplayer and rpm(build)
    (which I developed on the main box, then ported to the new box
    with 10.2/11.1/11.2). Go figure.

[3] which was the latest when I started

[4] Had a "warty" ISO lying around, which sufficed ;)

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32bit to 64 bit upgrade. [Was: Is it fair to conclude that......]

Carlos E. R.-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



On Saturday, 2009-12-05 at 10:35 +0100, David Haller wrote:

...

> I personally couldn't care less about what's happening with either
> desktop, as I use WindowMaker. And my 11.2 runs quite smooth, thank
> you very much, even though I did an upgrade from 11.1 32bit to 11.2
> 64bit, using a minimally unpacked ISO to boot+install from HD. And
> despite the fact that I made a couple of mistakes in the process!

That is thought to be impossible. Would you care to "document" it? :-)

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Sinisa Bandin-3
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
  On 12/04/09 06:55, Basil Chupin wrote:
> ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
> who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?
No, it is not...

I have made mistake to install new 11.2 to all the user PCs in my
company and now everybody is crying to get them back KDE3, because KDE4
is so much slower (all desktop effects turned off, newest NVIDIA
drivers, dual core CPUs with 2GB+ RAM), and much more complicated, and
has all those unneeded stuff (like plasma - I still cannot find what is
it good for), and does not have some tihings that were good in KDE3
(like little "hide taskbar" icons on the left/right).

We are allways talking about Mic****ft not being compatible with itself
across vesions, and now we have very similar situation.

Regards,
Siniša
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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Adam Tauno Williams-5
In reply to this post by James Knott
On Fri, 2009-12-04 at 11:09 -0500, James Knott wrote:
> Basil Chupin wrote:
> > ....most, if not all, complaints about oS11.2 and KDE 4 come from people
> > who have installed 11.2 on *laptops* and not on desktop PCs?

Nope.  I'm running openSUSE 11.2 on both laptop and desktop.  Works
well;  laptop does have some WPA issues in Enterprise mode but I imagine
those will sort out [such things always do].  But aside from that I am
very pleased.

GNOME is excellent and productive, as always.


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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Istvan Gabor-2
In reply to this post by Sinisa Bandin-3
OFF:

> I have made mistake to install new 11.2 to all the user PCs in my
> company and now everybody is crying to get them back KDE3, because KDE4
> is so much slower (all desktop effects turned off, newest NVIDIA
> drivers, dual core CPUs with 2GB+ RAM), and much more complicated, and
> has all those unneeded stuff (like plasma - I still cannot find what is
> it good for), and does not have some tihings that were good in KDE3
> (like little "hide taskbar" icons on the left/right).

Hello:

I am happy to learn that I am not the only one who is very unsatisfied with KDE4.
I also have to confirm that KDE4 is really much slower than KDE3. I have tried it several times on openSUSE 11.1 but would not use it for everyday use; sorry I have to correct myself, I would not use it for anything but testing. I even don't know why is it called KDE. It should look alike or resemble at least in something to conventional KDE, but is does not. I would rather call it a dulled gnome ("DGNOME from the KDE team"). It may sound disrespectful but during my more than then years linux experience I never met anything so unattractive as KDE4. Functionality and usability is very far from those of KDE3.
Once I raised at this forum the issue of the abovementioned hide taskbar buttons  but Sven Burnmeister has told me off and said that if it would be really wanted it had been already included. He also said that KDE3 is past but KDE4 IS FUTURE. And - maybe the most important point - if KDE4 is KDE why one has to learn to use it from scratch? The experience from KDE2, KDE3 doesn't lead you anywhere in KDE4. What does it has to do with KDE at all then?

Cheers,
Istvan

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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Istvan Gabor-2
> Once I raised at this forum the issue of the abovementioned hide taskbar
>buttons  but Sven Burnmeister has told me off and said that if it would be
really

Burnmeister should have been Burmeister. Sorry for the typo.

Istvan
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Re: Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Larry Stotler
In reply to this post by Bugzilla from jlturriff@centurytel.net
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Leslie Turriff
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>        I didn't realize it, but while doing some research I discovered that OS/2 is
> still available, albeit with a different name:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os/2

Yeah.  I've known that Serenity Systems has been making a version of
OS/2 for a while.  Unfortunately, it's expensive, and they haven't
been able to keep up with their release schedule.....
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Re: Is it fair to conclude that......

Larry Stotler
In reply to this post by Istvan Gabor-2
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Istvan Gabor <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am happy to learn that I am not the only one who is very unsatisfied with KDE4.
> I also have to confirm that KDE4 is really much slower than KDE3. I have tried it several times on openSUSE 11.1 but would not use it for
>everyday use; sorry I have to correct myself, I would not use it for anything but testing. I even don't know why is it called KDE. It should look
>alike or resemble at least in something to conventional KDE, but is does not. I would rather call it a dulled gnome ("DGNOME from the KDE
>team"). It may sound disrespectful but during my more than then years linux experience I never met anything so unattractive as KDE4.
>Functionality and usability is very far from those of KDE3.
> Once I raised at this forum the issue of the abovementioned hide taskbar buttons  but Sven Burnmeister has told me off and said that if
>it would be really wanted it had been already included. He also said that KDE3 is past but KDE4 IS FUTURE. And - maybe the most
>important
>point - if KDE4 is KDE why one has to learn to use it from scratch? The experience from KDE2, KDE3 doesn't lead you anywhere in KDE4. >What does it has to do with KDE at all then?

Agreed.  Having been a KDE user for 10 years, I can't figure out how
to use 1/2 of what's in KDE4.  And, most of what they added isn't
anything that I need or want in a DE.  I recently installed 11,2/KDE4
on my older laptop.  And I reverted it back to 11.0/KDE3.  I gave up
trying to make KDE4 work and look like I expect.  At some point I will
move away from KDE if it continues to be slower and continues to add
more bling and unncessary features.
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