How to name the baby

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How to name the baby

Robert Schweikert-6
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Oh no, not another lengthy thread.... I am afraid it is going to be,
but hopefully we can stick to the topic and only focus on the name.

A brief summary:

Stephan as the release manager has decided that he will concentrate on
building a distribution around the project known as openSUSE:42. In
[1] he also tried to start the discussion about the naming of the new
distro. However, this did get sidetracked rather quickly, thus, please
focus on naming only.

- - Not all questions for the new release have been answered, we do not
need to revisit this. Some answers will only emerge as the baby starts
to crawl and then walk....
- - Just because Stephan will take on the release manager
responsibilities of a distro around the SLE sources does not preclude
another person or team to build/release... a distro based on Factory
snapshots.

As the distribution is a representation of the project as a whole,
i.e. all contributors, I think it is fair that people get an
opportunity to weigh in with their concerns. This view may not be
shared by everyone, so please bare with the rest of us as your mailbox
once again fills up ;) However, to those participating in the
discussion please focus on the name not on side issues.

It has been advocated in other threads that a vote on the name should
be considered as the final solution. There are reasonable arguments
for and against such a direction. Thus, lets not focus on the voting
part at this point either, lets just focus on the name and see where
the discussion goes. If this should or should not be voted on can be a
separate discussion once we collectively understand the concerns
people have with respect to the name.

In a "thread renaming" post we have had the following suggestion:

* openSUSE Oak

""""
So how about Oak? It's a solid tree, it fits with the green theme and it
will give us:

* openSUSE Tumbleweed
* openSUSE Oak
""""

"openSLES" has also been suggested a few times but lets just say that
we will probably run afoul with a number of legal restrictions. Plus
it is not really SLES, it is based on SLES sources and not a verbatim
build of the SLES sources.

My suggestion would be to focus on the name while considering that we
should not create a name that would produce a potential conflict as
described in [2], also consider the reply [3]

So please lets focus on the name the child might have. State your case
for the name you propose, include in the proposal a numbering scheme,
if you think we should stick with numbers.

Staring at 1 for a numbering scheme has rather obvious disadvantages,
all other numbers are probably equally arbitrary, but you can
certainly state the case why the number being proposed is favorable.

I propose the above as the guidelines for the naming discussion. I
will add my personal opinion about the name as a follow up post. Lets
see if I can manage to stay within my own proposed guidelines ;)

I apologize to those that are subscribed to both the -factory and the
- -project list. However I know that there are a number of people that
are not following -project but follow -factory, thus the cross post.
As I mentioned, I believe that the distribution represents all of us
and thus everyone should have their chance to weigh in on the name
given to the baby that represents the community.

Let the fun begin.
Robert

[1] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-factory/2015-06/msg00203.html
[2] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-06/msg00278.html
[3] http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2015-06/msg00280.html

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Robert Schweikert                   MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU
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[hidden email]
IRC: robjo
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Re: How to name the baby

Richard Brown
Don't have the time to comment on this whole thread (seriously? yet
another long post...dude! ;)) but I do have two points I want to make
very quickly

1. I think talking about naming anything is premature until we know
what the landscape is going to be.

Right now, we have Tumbleweed and the beginnings of a new Regular
Release which is currently codenamed openSUSE:42.

While there is obviously some people who would prefer to keep with the
old way of distribution releases, we haven't seen anyone step up to
actually do the work to continue that approach.

I think the suggestion to maintain the openSUSE name only for the
current-style of Regular release is foolish if there is no sign of
that way of doing things continuing.

So I think any decision about naming (and also versioning) is
pointless until things are a little further down the road.

This might be a good opportunity to kick around some names, but I
certainly would strongly advocate no final decisions until we're much
closer to releasing stuff.

And for point #2, I have to point out something about one of the
suggestions so far

On 16 June 2015 at 23:47, Robert Schweikert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> "openSLES" has also been suggested a few times but lets just say that
> we will probably run afoul with a number of legal restrictions. Plus
> it is not really SLES, it is based on SLES sources and not a verbatim
> build of the SLES sources.
>

openSUSE is a Registered Trademark which is jointly administered by
SUSE & openSUSE through the Board.

SLES is a Registered Trademark belonging to SUSE, and unlike the
openSUSE mark, we (the openSUSE Project) have no established agreement
to use the SLES Trademark.
Discussions I've already had on this topic suggest to me that SUSE
would be reluctant to give permission to the Project for the use of
the SLES Mark, as it would be confusing both from a market standpoint,
and a practical one (as Robert points out, it's based on SLES sources,
not a verbatim build of SLES)

So, please, consider any and all alternatives before this one
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Robert Schweikert-6
In reply to this post by Robert Schweikert-6
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On 06/16/2015 05:47 PM, Robert Schweikert wrote:

> Oh no, not another lengthy thread.... I am afraid it is going to
> be, but hopefully we can stick to the topic and only focus on the
> name.
>
> A brief summary:
>
> Stephan as the release manager has decided that he will concentrate
> on building a distribution around the project known as openSUSE:42.
> In [1] he also tried to start the discussion about the naming of
> the new distro. However, this did get sidetracked rather quickly,
> thus, please focus on naming only.
>
> - Not all questions for the new release have been answered, we do
> not need to revisit this. Some answers will only emerge as the baby
> starts to crawl and then walk.... - Just because Stephan will take
> on the release manager responsibilities of a distro around the SLE
> sources does not preclude another person or team to
> build/release... a distro based on Factory snapshots.
>
> As the distribution is a representation of the project as a whole,
> i.e. all contributors, I think it is fair that people get an
> opportunity to weigh in with their concerns. This view may not be
> shared by everyone, so please bare with the rest of us as your
> mailbox once again fills up ;) However, to those participating in
> the discussion please focus on the name not on side issues.
>
> It has been advocated in other threads that a vote on the name
> should be considered as the final solution. There are reasonable
> arguments for and against such a direction. Thus, lets not focus on
> the voting part at this point either, lets just focus on the name
> and see where the discussion goes. If this should or should not be
> voted on can be a separate discussion once we collectively
> understand the concerns people have with respect to the name.
>
> In a "thread renaming" post we have had the following suggestion:
>
> * openSUSE Oak
>
> """" So how about Oak? It's a solid tree, it fits with the green
> theme and it will give us:
>
> * openSUSE Tumbleweed * openSUSE Oak """"
>
> "openSLES" has also been suggested a few times but lets just say
> that we will probably run afoul with a number of legal
> restrictions. Plus it is not really SLES, it is based on SLES
> sources and not a verbatim build of the SLES sources.
>
> My suggestion would be to focus on the name while considering that
> we should not create a name that would produce a potential conflict
> as described in [2], also consider the reply [3]
>
> So please lets focus on the name the child might have. State your
> case for the name you propose, include in the proposal a numbering
> scheme, if you think we should stick with numbers.
>
> Staring at 1 for a numbering scheme has rather obvious
> disadvantages, all other numbers are probably equally arbitrary,
> but you can certainly state the case why the number being proposed
> is favorable.
>
> I propose the above as the guidelines for the naming discussion. I
> will add my personal opinion about the name as a follow up post.
> Lets see if I can manage to stay within my own proposed guidelines
> ;)
>

My comments on the name.

I think with the developments as they present themselves we should
abandon "openSUSE XY.Z" as a name and we should use names in the form of

openSUSE SOME_NAME SOME_VERSION

This, IMHO, will have the effect that there is no finger pointing as
in "why does this release team get the 'openSUSE VERSION_NUMBER' over
 another release team".

I also believe that such a naming scheme will help us in the forming
of a marketing campaign built around "The builders choice" tag line
proposed at oSC15.

openSUSE Tumbleweed - The builders choice for developers
openSUSE XXX - The builders choice for sysdamins and devops, rock
solid and long term support

The choices are clearly differentiated by name and each has a specific
target audience.

I am using XXX as a place holder for the name of a distribution
created around SLES sources.

Last but not least I believe this allows us to avoid naming conflicts
if/when a distribution based on Factory snapshots should emerge,
reference [2] in the original e-mail. The "openSUSE SOME_NAME
SOME_VERSION" naming scheme will probably/hopefully not be perceived
as a deterrent to such a possible effort and I think this is important.

Numbering, given that 1 is not, IMHO, a good solution as a starting
position given that we would soon repeat numbers used in the "openSUSE
XY.Z" scheme and we have a history of doing quirky things I do like
the idea of starting with 42. Given that all numbers after 1 as a
starting position can probably be considered equally arbitrary as a
selection I think 42 is just as good as any number and it is after all
the "Answer to The Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and
Everything" ;)

At this point I really have no strong preference about the middle part,

Solar - ever lasting, green energy, shining bright
Forest - green, stable ecosystem but new things growing/happening,
         diverse, sticks with the plant theme

Thus, the name for the first release would be something like this

openSUSE Oak 42

Then add .1, .2 etc as the base changes with SLE service pack releases
and when SLE 13 becomes the base it turns into

openSUSE Solar 43

AS I said, no strong preference yet on the middle part ;)

That is my contribution to the naming I think I stayed reasonably
within my own proposed guidelines ;)

Later,
Robert

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Robert Schweikert                   MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU
Public Cloud Architect                         LINUX
[hidden email]
IRC: robjo
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Re: How to name the baby

Robert Schweikert-6
In reply to this post by Richard Brown
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On 06/16/2015 06:07 PM, Richard Brown wrote:
> Don't have the time to comment on this whole thread (seriously?
> yet another long post...dude! ;)) but I do have two points I want
> to make very quickly
>
> 1. I think talking about naming anything is premature until we
> know what the landscape is going to be.

Really?  When do we ever know the landscape. Until oSC15 most people
were most likely under the impression that we'd have openSUSE 13.3
late this year as a snapshot of Factory. The per-announcement at
FOSDEM and some other rumors beforehand can certainly not, under any
serious circumstances, be considered as an indicator for major
upheaval to the release.

Thus, I would say we really do not know the landscape, ever, until
things actually happen. What we do know is that our release manager
has announced that he will work on a distribution/release that is
based on openSUSE:42 and thus I would say we can all pretty much infer
from that that our current release manager will not have the time,
energy, or interest to also work on "openSUSE Factory-based". This
decision is from my point of view sufficient to come to terms about
what the child should be named.

If history is any indication we know that when Stephan puts his mind
to something it is going to happen. Even in the most uncertain times
somehow there was a release. Kudos to Stephan for all his hard work
and dedication to the project, I doubt this will change. And during
the times of the openSUSE team Kudos to their hard work on the release
as well. Therefore, I would say it is a fair expectation that there
will be a distribution ready for release based on :42.

I am really not certain how much more of the landscape we need to know
to give the child a name.

>
> Right now, we have Tumbleweed and the beginnings of a new Regular
> Release which is currently codenamed openSUSE:42.
>
> While there is obviously some people who would prefer to keep with
> the old way of distribution releases, we haven't seen anyone step
> up to actually do the work to continue that approach.

And why would that have to be right this minute? If it happens next
year would you rather rename the new "regular" release again? Or have
another naming discussion? Or worse discourage such potential efforts
by saying the new child is called "openSUSE XY.z" and that's that?
There should be the idea of putting things on equal footing to provide
our users with the choice they desire and provide our contributors
with the opportunities they deserve. Many things are implied by a name
and this choice is important, IMHO.

>
> I think the suggestion to maintain the openSUSE name only for the
> current-style of Regular release is foolish if there is no sign of
> that way of doing things continuing.

Well, one can call many things foolish. I guess trying to come up with
a reasonable solution that considers many different concerns now falls
into that category as well. By the way I did not propose to reserve
the current naming for a potential future effort, I proposed to
abandon it in favor of providing multiple efforts equal footing for
equal naming rights. Maybe that is the foolish part.

Please explain where the problem lies if it is called "openSUSE
Forest" and there is no third distribution?

Later,
Robert

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Robert Schweikert                   MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU
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[hidden email]
IRC: robjo
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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-factory] How to name the baby

Jan Engelhardt-4
In reply to this post by Richard Brown
On Wednesday 2015-06-17 00:07, Richard Brown wrote:

>Don't have the time to comment on this whole thread (seriously? yet
>another long post...dude!

opensuse-project posts are anything but concise, so it does not seem
surprising that only "6 out of 49" (or so) people responded to votes.
;^)
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Robert Schweikert-6
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On 2015-06-17 00:22, Robert Schweikert wrote:

> I think with the developments as they present themselves we should
> abandon "openSUSE XY.Z" as a name and we should use names in the
> form of
>
> openSUSE SOME_NAME SOME_VERSION

Yes, I agree.


> Thus, the name for the first release would be something like this
>
> openSUSE Oak 42

Not bad. I like it :-)


Next, would be a numbering scheme for the future. 43, 44..? 42.01,
42.02...?

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Jan Engelhardt-4

On Wednesday 2015-06-17 14:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>Next, would be a numbering scheme for the future. 43, 44..? 42.01,
>42.02...?

Since openSUSE:42 is the *title*, any versioning off it would
make for
 - openSUSE:42 1.0
 - openSUSE:42 2.0

And now you see why there is so much confusion about using
an integer as title.
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Robert Schweikert-6
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On 2015-06-17 09:23, Alberto Planas wrote:

> So, for example, if we use names of greens, the names will be:
>
> openSUSE Avocado       SLE13 + Factory openSUSE Avocado 1   SLE13
> SP1 + Factory ... openSUSE Bottle            SLE14 + Factory ...
> openSUSE Bottle 3        SLE14 SP3 + Factory
>
>
> Just an idea.

Not bad. It has the advantage that the numbers relate to the SLES
service pack the release derives from, and that is a very interesting
info to have in the name.

- --
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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Cornelius Schumacher-2
In reply to this post by Robert Schweikert-6
On Tuesday 16 June 2015 18:22:41 Robert Schweikert wrote:
>
> I also believe that such a naming scheme will help us in the forming
> of a marketing campaign built around "The builders choice" tag line
> proposed at oSC15.

At oSC15 you presented the slogan as "the makers choice". While this might be
close, exact words do matter in marketing. I'm not sure the proposed tag line
should be part of the naming discussion, especially given this fuzziness. I
also haven't seen much uptake on it, and for me personally it doesn't
resonate.

I think we do have a pretty clear vision for Tumbleweed. And an openSUSE
distribution based on SLES also is a pretty clear vision. This should be
enough to find a good name.

> Thus, the name for the first release would be something like this
>
> openSUSE Oak 42
>
> Then add .1, .2 etc as the base changes with SLE service pack releases
> and when SLE 13 becomes the base it turns into
>
> openSUSE Solar 43
>
> AS I said, no strong preference yet on the middle part ;)

I like the scheme of having a separating middle name and Oak actually is one
of the nicest proposals I have seen so far. I would not change it over time,
though and reflect progress in the version number. So the middle name would
reflect the nature of the release and the version what, well, version it is.

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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2015-06-17 15:47, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:

> I like the scheme of having a separating middle name and Oak actually is one
> of the nicest proposals I have seen so far. I would not change it over time,
> though and reflect progress in the version number. So the middle name would
> reflect the nature of the release and the version what, well, version it is.

Yes.

And the number could have the decimal part showing which service pack
the release derives from.

--
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                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)


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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Robert Schweikert-6
In reply to this post by Cornelius Schumacher-2
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On 06/17/2015 09:47 AM, Cornelius Schumacher wrote:
> On Tuesday 16 June 2015 18:22:41 Robert Schweikert wrote:
>>
>> I also believe that such a naming scheme will help us in the
>> forming of a marketing campaign built around "The builders
>> choice" tag line proposed at oSC15.
>
> At oSC15 you presented the slogan as "the makers choice". While
> this might be close, exact words do matter in marketing.

Yes, they do, my apologies I should have looked it up rather than
going from memory.

Later,
Robert

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Re: How to name the baby

Knurpht-openSUSE
In reply to this post by Robert Schweikert-6
Op dinsdag 16 juni 2015 17:47:02 schreef Robert Schweikert:

> In a "thread renaming" post we have had the following suggestion:
>
> * openSUSE Oak
>
> """"
> So how about Oak? It's a solid tree, it fits with the green theme and it
> will give us:
>
> * openSUSE Tumbleweed
> * openSUSE Oak
> """"

where Oak would get an addition in a {SLE_versionno+30).{SLE_SP_versionno} ?
IMHO a good pattern for naming, so we just have to agree on the tree type :D.


--
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Official openSUSE Member
openSUSE Forums Team
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Andrew Wafaa
In reply to this post by Robert Schweikert-6
On 16 June 2015 at 17:47, Robert Schweikert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> In a "thread renaming" post we have had the following suggestion:
>
> * openSUSE Oak
>
> """"
> So how about Oak? It's a solid tree, it fits with the green theme and it
> will give us:
>
> * openSUSE Tumbleweed
> * openSUSE Oak
> """"
>

Sorry but why re-name anything? What on earth is wrong with what we
have currently - openSUSE $VERSION & openSUSE Tumbleweed?

The latter is well advertised as a rolling release so no number or
anything is needed. The former uses the SLE Sources as a base and
shows the similarity to its enterprise brother/cousin, we discussed at
oSC15 using 42 as the name for the project in OBS and using it as the
base for the release numbering. So as we were planning on releasing
roughly at the same time as SLE12 SP1, then we would label it openSUSE
42.1; with the major number matching the SLE number denoting the tree
from which it is spawned and the minor number lining up with the
corresponding service pack.

I don't get the fascination with "fixing" something that isn't broken.
Nobody cared for the code names for each release since forever, what
makes this any different. Lengthening the name is pointless and causes
issues with macros etc.

Regards,
The Grumpy Curmudgeon
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-06-17 20:20, James Mason wrote:

>
> As far as that ? ... I think its an obvious choice. We repurposed
> the Tumbleweed moniker for Factory rolling releases, as it was not
> possible for the Tumbleweed maintaineer to meet its original
> purpose, and it was 'dying' anyway.

I don't believe it was dying, but does not matter here.

> Now it has new life, in its original purpose, and is more popular
> than ever. So, I think the obvious choice, assuming the maintainers
> agree, is to repurpose Evergreen for the SLE-based releases.
>
> openSUSE Evergreen 12.0 -> SLES 12 openSUSE Evergreen 12.1 -> SLES
> 12 SP1

Interesting idea...


- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Andrew Wafaa
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On 2015-06-17 17:57, Andrew Wafaa wrote:
> Sorry but why re-name anything? What on earth is wrong with what
> we have currently - openSUSE $VERSION & openSUSE Tumbleweed?

Because it is a variant of openSUSE...

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Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" at Telcontar)
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Jan Engelhardt-4
On Wednesday 2015-06-17 20:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:

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>On 2015-06-17 17:57, Andrew Wafaa wrote:
>> Sorry but why re-name anything? What on earth is wrong with what
>> we have currently - openSUSE $VERSION & openSUSE Tumbleweed?
>
>Because it is a variant of openSUSE...

This is hardly a usable justficiation.

I don't want any variants, I want _the original_.
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Re: How to name the baby

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-06-18 00:00, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
> On Wednesday 2015-06-17 20:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> Because it is a variant of openSUSE...
>
> This is hardly a usable justficiation.
>
> I don't want any variants, I want _the original_.

Me too, but it will not be.

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                Carlos E. R.

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Re: How to name the baby

Jan Engelhardt-4

On Thursday 2015-06-18 00:40, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Because it is a variant of openSUSE...
>> This is hardly a usable justficiation.
>> I don't want any variants, I want _the original_.
>
>Me too, but it will not be.

What do you mean by "it will not be"?
Just because some SLE sources are used as base does not
mean openSUSE is not openSUSE any longer, especially
because SLE is from openSUSE anyway.
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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-factory] How to name the baby

Robert Schweikert-6
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
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On 06/17/2015 06:40 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2015-06-18 00:00, Jan Engelhardt wrote:
>> On Wednesday 2015-06-17 20:55, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>>> Because it is a variant of openSUSE...
>
>> This is hardly a usable justficiation.
>
>> I don't want any variants, I want _the original_.
>
> Me too, but it will not be.
>

Well that will depend on the definition of what _the original_ means.
This may be better debated in yet another thread. However, lets just
get into this here.

If we declare the release that SUSE paid employees release and
maintain (security) as _the original_ and therefore declare this group
of people as "special", i.e. they hold the monopoly on releasing
things that are branded "openSUSE VERSION_NUMBER", as in _the
original_ then indeed a renaming would be out of place, and the new
SLES source based release  that is being worked on as :42 would be
_the original_, aka "regular release". This naming "openSUSE
VERSION_NUMBER" is being advocated by some in the community, and there
are certainly reasonable arguments for proceeding in that direction.

However, if we come to the conclusion that no group of people should
have "special" status (a question raised in one comment in some other
thread), then the proposal of abandoning the  "openSUSE
VERSION_NUMBER" name and having any and all distributions follow
"openSUSE SOME_NAME SOME_VERSION" is one potential option to
communicate the equality of releases, equality as in "equally
representative of all contributors".

Later,
Robert

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Robert Schweikert                   MAY THE SOURCE BE WITH YOU
Public Cloud Architect                         LINUX
[hidden email]
IRC: robjo
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Re: [opensuse-project] How to name the baby

Christian Boltz-5
In reply to this post by Jan Engelhardt-4
Hello,

Am Mittwoch, 17. Juni 2015 schrieb Jan Engelhardt:
> On Wednesday 2015-06-17 14:59, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> >Next, would be a numbering scheme for the future. 43, 44..? 42.01,
> >42.02...?
>
> Since openSUSE:42 is the *title*, any versioning off it would

No (at least IMHO) - openSUSE:42 is a working title saying something
like
- a future openSUSE version (> 13.2 = future)
- includes big changes when compared to 13.2 (that's why it isn't
  increased only by one, but by a big number)

> make for
>  - openSUSE:42 1.0
>  - openSUSE:42 2.0
>
> And now you see why there is so much confusion about using
> an integer as title.

I agree, such a numbering scheme would be terrible [1].

However, the scheme was never proposed this way - 42 was only meant as
starting number and (if we use this scheme) will increase to openSUSE:43
with the next SLE release.


Regards,

Christian Boltz

[1] see also: Typo3 ;-)

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