Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

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Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Roman Bysh
Hi all,

After perusing the kernel repositories. I've noticed that openSUSE 13.2
is the last distro using kernel-desktop.

Is it being replaced with kernel-base?

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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Roman Bysh
On 10/08/2015 05:15 PM, Roman Bysh wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> After perusing the kernel repositories. I've noticed that openSUSE 13.2
> is the last distro using kernel-desktop.
>
> Is it being replaced with kernel-base?
>
Please disregard.

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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Basil Chupin-2
On 09/10/15 08:21, Roman Bysh wrote:
> On 10/08/2015 05:15 PM, Roman Bysh wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> After perusing the kernel repositories. I've noticed that openSUSE 13.2
>> is the last distro using kernel-desktop.
>>
>> Is it being replaced with kernel-base?
>>
> Please disregard.

Why disregard, Roman?

Please explain.


BC

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16GB PC14900/1866MHz Quad Channel RAM
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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Carlos E. R.-2
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On 2015-10-11 12:51, Basil Chupin wrote:
> On 09/10/15 08:21, Roman Bysh wrote:

>>> Is it being replaced with kernel-base?
>>>
>> Please disregard.
>
> Why disregard, Roman?
>
> Please explain.

I wondered, too :-)

Anyway, I understood it is been replaced or merged with kernel-default.

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Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Dmitriy Perlow
In reply to this post by Roman Bysh
Carlos E. R. <[hidden email]>  Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:09:27  
+0300:

> Anyway, I understood it is been replaced or merged with kernel-default.

Both Leap 42 & Factory-Tumbleweed provide it, so it can be just forgotten  
not abandoned:
https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Leap:42.1/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Factory/kernel-desktop?repository=standard

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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Carlos E. R.-3
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On 2015-10-11 19:33, Dmitriy Perlow wrote:

> Carlos E. R. <>  Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:09:27
> +0300:
>
>> Anyway, I understood it is been replaced or merged with kernel-default.
>
> Both Leap 42 & Factory-Tumbleweed provide it, so it can be just
> forgotten not abandoned:
> https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Leap:42.1/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
>
> https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Factory/kernel-desktop?repository=standard

Yes, but:

Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 11:26:24 +0200
From: Michal Marek <>
To: opensuse-kernel <[hidden email]>
Subject: [opensuse-kernel] Merging kernel-desktop back to kernel-default (fate#319416)


I don't know what was decided in the end, but I understood they were going ahead.

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Cheers / Saludos,
               
                Carlos E. R.

  (from 13.1 x86_64 "Bottle" (Minas Tirith))
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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Jiri Slaby-6
In reply to this post by Dmitriy Perlow
On 10/11/2015, 07:33 PM, Dmitriy Perlow wrote:

> Carlos E. R. <[hidden email]>  Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:09:27
> +0300:
>
>> Anyway, I understood it is been replaced or merged with kernel-default.
>
> Both Leap 42 & Factory-Tumbleweed provide it, so it can be just
> forgotten not abandoned:
> https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Leap:42.1/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
>
> https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Factory/kernel-desktop?repository=standard

Neither repo has the merged kernel yet. After this happens,
kernel-desktop will dismiss.

thanks,
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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Roman Bysh
On 10/12/2015 02:41 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:

> On 10/11/2015, 07:33 PM, Dmitriy Perlow wrote:
> > Carlos E. R. <[hidden email]>  Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:09:27
> > +0300:
> >
> >> Anyway, I understood it is been replaced or merged with kernel-default.
> >
> > Both Leap 42 & Factory-Tumbleweed provide it, so it can be just
> > forgotten not abandoned:
> > https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Leap:42.1/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
> >
> > https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Factory/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
>
> Neither repo has the merged kernel yet. After this happens,
> kernel-desktop will dismiss.
>
> thanks,
>
Yep. The kernel-desktop is now history. We'll still need the kernel-desktop
for Evergreen.
 
Cheers!

Roman

IRC: 551368250
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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Yamaban
On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:50, Roman Bysh <rbtc1@...> wrote:

> On 10/12/2015 02:41 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:
>> On 10/11/2015, 07:33 PM, Dmitriy Perlow wrote:
>>> Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@...>  Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:09:27 +0300:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, I understood it is been replaced or merged with kernel-default.
>>>
>>> Both Leap 42 & Factory-Tumbleweed provide it, so it can be just
>>> forgotten not abandoned:
>>> https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Leap:42.1/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
>>>
>>> https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Factory/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
>>
>> Neither repo has the merged kernel yet. After this happens,
>> kernel-desktop will dismiss.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
> Yep. The kernel-desktop is now history. We'll still need the kernel-desktop
> for Evergreen.

Or we create a "switch-to-kernel-default" package, and name
that kernel-desktop. Spec-Content would be:

Require: kernel-default >= merged-version
Obsoletes: kernel-desktop >= merged-version

Or, would that be wrong?
Easier to maintain in the long run for sure.

IMHO, for Evergreen and TW that should be the way to go,
LEAP 42.1 / SLE 12 SP1 should be gold-master with merged kernel,
else much of the wanted simplification is lost for this release.

  - Yamaban.
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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Roman Bysh
On 10/12/2015 06:24 PM, Yamaban wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:50, Roman Bysh <rbtc1@...> wrote:
> > On 10/12/2015 02:41 AM, Jiri Slaby wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2015, 07:33 PM, Dmitriy Perlow wrote:
> >>> Carlos E. R. <robin.listas@...>  Sun, 11 Oct 2015 20:09:27 +0300:
> >>>
> >>>> Anyway, I understood it is been replaced or merged with
> >>>> kernel-default.
> >>>
> >>> Both Leap 42 & Factory-Tumbleweed provide it, so it can be just
> >>> forgotten not abandoned:
> >>> https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Leap:42.1/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> https://build.opensuse.org/package/binaries/openSUSE:Factory/kernel-desktop?repository=standard
> >>>
> >>
> >> Neither repo has the merged kernel yet. After this happens,
> >> kernel-desktop will dismiss.
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >>
> > Yep. The kernel-desktop is now history. We'll still need the
> > kernel-desktop
> > for Evergreen.
>
> Or we create a "switch-to-kernel-default" package, and name
> that kernel-desktop. Spec-Content would be:
>
> Require: kernel-default >= merged-version
> Obsoletes: kernel-desktop >= merged-version
>
> Or, would that be wrong?
> Easier to maintain in the long run for sure.
>
> IMHO, for Evergreen and TW that should be the way to go,
> LEAP 42.1 / SLE 12 SP1 should be gold-master with merged kernel,
> else much of the wanted simplification is lost for this release.
>
>  - Yamaban.
Yes. Simple an effective.

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Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Michal Marek
In reply to this post by Yamaban
On 2015-10-13 00:24, Yamaban wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:50, Roman Bysh <rbtc1@...> wrote:
>> Yep. The kernel-desktop is now history. We'll still need the kernel-desktop
>> for Evergreen.
>
> Or we create a "switch-to-kernel-default" package, and name
> that kernel-desktop. Spec-Content would be:
>
> Require: kernel-default >= merged-version
> Obsoletes: kernel-desktop >= merged-version
>
> Or, would that be wrong?
> Easier to maintain in the long run for sure.

How is it different from providing and obsoleting kernel-desktop from
withing kernel-default, like it is done in Tumbleweed?

Michal

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Re: Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Yamaban
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 11:26, Michal Marek <mmarek@...> wrote:

> On 2015-10-13 00:24, Yamaban wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 23:50, Roman Bysh <rbtc1@...> wrote:
>>> Yep. The kernel-desktop is now history. We'll still need the kernel-desktop
>>> for Evergreen.
>>
>> Or we create a "switch-to-kernel-default" package, and name
>> that kernel-desktop. Spec-Content would be:
>>
>> Require: kernel-default >= merged-version
>> Obsoletes: kernel-desktop >= merged-version
>>
>> Or, would that be wrong?
>> Easier to maintain in the long run for sure.
>
> How is it different from providing and obsoleting kernel-desktop from
> withing kernel-default, like it is done in Tumbleweed?
>
> Michal

Good question!

Short answer: Reality bites, is no-go on "zypper up"

Long answer:

Well, that works with "zypper dup" but hat been proven to be NOT
working with "zypper up".

For "zypper up" you NEED a package with the same 'name' as the one
you want to replace, even if it ist just a dummy package, as
proposed above.

This is especially important for update-only pathes like Evergreen.

For the update path, "satsolver" will not consider a package with
no prior installed version. and the 'name' kernel-default IS
different from kernel-desktop, ergo by itself, kernel-default
will NEVER EVER be considered a valid update for kernel-desktop.

My proposal is based on the existing reality, not on the
dreams (as nice as they are, at least in some cases) of the
programmers and maintainers.

The reality of this has bitten me harsh, more than once,
and I want to spare others to experience the same.

Addenum on the proposal above:

"kernel-default" spec should contain:
Obsoletes: kernel-desktop >= merged-version

  - Yamaban.
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Re: Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Andrei Borzenkov
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Yamaban <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, that works with "zypper dup" but hat been proven to be NOT
> working with "zypper up".
>

You mean that "dup" will select kernel-default and then standard RPM
rules for obsoletes kick in?

> For "zypper up" you NEED a package with the same 'name' as the one
> you want to replace, even if it ist just a dummy package, as
> proposed above.
>

Sounds like it is something to be fixed in zypper. It actually worked
pretty well using other software managers I remember.
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Re: Re: Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Yamaban
On Tue, 13 Oct 2015 12:00, Andrei Borzenkov <arvidjaar@...> wrote:

> On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 12:50 PM, Yamaban <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, that works with "zypper dup" but hat been proven to be NOT
>> working with "zypper up".
>
> You mean that "dup" will select kernel-default and then standard RPM
> rules for obsoletes kick in?
>
>> For "zypper up" you NEED a package with the same 'name' as the one
>> you want to replace, even if it ist just a dummy package, as
>> proposed above.
>
> Sounds like it is something to be fixed in zypper. It actually worked
> pretty well using other software managers I remember.

Well, it is NOT zypper, but libsatsolver as the real cause.
And to solve this from the ground up, this would mean to
get a "corrected" version of libsatsolver into OSS 13.1,
OSS 13.2, TW, all 'current' SLE and LEAP before changeing
kernel.

Much more easy is to work around this known limitation.

And, really, just WHERE from should libsatsolv get the
information that the package kernel-desktop is superseeded
by package kernel-default?

For the "update" code path  only packages with the same
name are considered at all for a update. This is BY DESIGN.

[Pseudo CODE]
foreach package from (package-name-list); do
   if compare(package,installed-version,(available-version-list))
   then signal-for-update(package, newest-version-available)
done
[/Pseudo CODE]

Now show where the handling of DIFFERENT packagenames
comes into that.

Only for the "Distro-UpGrade", all the packages will
be read in with all the Provides, Require, Obsolete, etc
and then the matrix will be "solved". And this takes some
extra time that is NOT wanted for a simple update.

You want cake? You have to bake it beforehand.

If other "software manager" do it different, then most
likely they trade every upDATE as upGRADE.

In Fedora / RHEL / CentOS for example it is the
difference between "yum update" and "yum upgrade".

Similar with apt in Debian / Ubuntu.

We are talking about fast cli programs.
Slower GUI programs are a different matter.

  - Yamaban.
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Re: Re: Re: Has kernel-desktop been replaced by kernel-base?

Jan Engelhardt-4

On Tuesday 2015-10-13 13:04, Yamaban wrote:
>>
>>> For "zypper up" you NEED a package with the same 'name' as the one
>>> you want to replace, even if it ist just a dummy package, as
>>> proposed above.
> For the "update" code path  only packages with the same
> name are considered at all for a update. This is BY DESIGN.

You are talking utter nonsense again. zypper up totally respects
Obsoletes/Provides, if only you had bothered to check. But nooo, you
just had to fantasize again.
Seriously, just stop it.


# zypper up
Loading repository data...
Reading installed packages...

The following NEW package is going to be installed:
  test-bar

The following package is going to be REMOVED:
  test-foo

1 new package to install, 1 to remove.
Overall download size: 2.2 KiB. Already cached: 0 B  No additional space will be used or freed after the operation.
Continue? [y/n/? shows all options] (y):

> And, really, just WHERE from should libsatsolv get the
> information that the package kernel-desktop is superseeded
> by package kernel-default?

From the Obsoletes/Provides tag carrier obviously, in this case kernel-default//test-bar.
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