Goodbye to suse

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Goodbye to suse

SheridanJ West
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
persons.

Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'

So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.

While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
better  and mod perl 2 excites me.

So thank you once again and goodbye.
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Re: Goodbye to suse

Bugzilla from hugo.costelha@gmail.com
On Monday 13 November 2006 12:00, SheridanJ West wrote:

> I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
> mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
> and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
> persons.
>
> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>
> So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
> user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
> signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>
> While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
> 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
> better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>
> So thank you once again and goodbye.

Thanks for using SUSE and see you soon ;)

Hugo Costelha
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Re: Goodbye to suse

TheOldWiseKing
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
I have an opinion considering the deal between Microsoft and Novell. The
deal doesn't mean that Novell made a deal with evil, because this deal
has not been made long time ago, I think Microsoft did this step when
she realized that Novel SUSE has became a strong competitor to her OS.
This of course means that SUSE because really strong, and will be more
strong in the future.

Regards,...

TheOldWiseKing

SheridanJ West wrote:

> I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
> mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
> and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
> persons.
>
> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>
> So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
> user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
> signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>
> While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
> 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
> better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>
> So thank you once again and goodbye.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
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Re: Goodbye to suse

SheridanJ West
On 11/13/06, TheOldWiseKing <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have an opinion considering the deal between Microsoft and Novell. The
> deal doesn't mean that Novell made a deal with evil,

replace word microsoft with the word sco

> because this deal
> has not been made long time ago, I think Microsoft did this step when
> she realized that Novel SUSE has became a strong competitor to her OS.
> This of course means that SUSE because really strong, and will be more
> strong in the future.

Maybe/maybe not some us remember the netware days, and the days when
wordperfect was the 'thing'.  I imagine in five years time novell will
be wondering 'wow how did that happen' and Novell will be once again
trying to redefine 'Novell'.

You have your view I have mine.
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Re: Goodbye to suse

James Knott
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
SheridanJ West wrote:

> I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
> mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
> and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
> persons.
>
> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>
> So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
> user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
> signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>
> While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
> 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
> better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>
> So thank you once again and goodbye.

Before being too hasty, please get your facts straight.  It is not a
licensing deal.  Novell ensured the agreement was compliant with GPL.
It doesn't give them the right to include MS patents in Linux.  It
simply means MS won't sue SUSE users, should a patent violation turn
up.  Also, MS is paying Novell far more than what Novell pays MS, so the
net result is more money for Novell.  Someone else had posted a link to
a Novell Q&A page.  Perhaps you might want to read it.

That said, I am opposed to any such deal with MS, as I'll always be
suspicious of them.

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Re: Goodbye to suse

Basil Chupin
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
SheridanJ West wrote:

> I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
> mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
> and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
> persons.
>
> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>
> So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
> user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
> signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>
> While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
> 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
> better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>
> So thank you once again and goodbye.

I accept your sentiments, and wish you all the very best.

I suspect that you have expressed publicly the feelings quite a few
people here have also possibly acquired over the past several days.

Cheers.


--
"This week, on Tuesday night, in an ironic turnaround, Iraq brought
regime change to the U.S."

 
                    Amy Poehler
                                                                                       

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Re: Goodbye to suse

James Knott
Basil Chupin wrote:

> SheridanJ West wrote:
>> I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
>> mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
>> and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
>> persons.
>>
>> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>>
>> So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
>> user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
>> signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>>
>> While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
>> 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
>> better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>>
>> So thank you once again and goodbye.
>
> I accept your sentiments, and wish you all the very best.
>
> I suspect that you have expressed publicly the feelings quite a few
> people here have also possibly acquired over the past several days.
>
>

One thing a lot of people are forgetting, is there's still OpenSUSE,
which contributes no money whatsoever to MS and isn't likely to receive
any MS patents.


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Re: Goodbye to suse

TheOldWiseKing
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
It's not easy to say that Novell will try to re-define 'Novell'.
Business doesn't go such a way. But I think that by leaving SUSE, u r
allowing Microsoft to become stronger, because u r leaving the OS that
made Microsoft becomes afraid. After years of Work in SUSE to become a
'thing', now u r leaving it to another 'nothing'. How about if u join
Mandriva community, and the community evolved until Mandriva Linux
become a 'thing', then Microsoft did the same with Mandriva, will u
leave it again??, if we do so, we will leave all great things and make
them weak.

SUSE is not great with the its code or architecutre, SUSE is great with
the community that created the great thing called SUSE.

I advice u not to leave it, and we shall wait until this storm goes
away. and we will see what will happen between them.

and As james knott said, the deal shall force Microsoft to work under
GPL, and this will not happen. Simply, Microsoft will not allow MS Word
to be open source.

Regards,...

TheOldWiseKing

SheridanJ West wrote:

> On 11/13/06, TheOldWiseKing <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have an opinion considering the deal between Microsoft and Novell. The
>> deal doesn't mean that Novell made a deal with evil,
>
> replace word microsoft with the word sco
>
>> because this deal
>> has not been made long time ago, I think Microsoft did this step when
>> she realized that Novel SUSE has became a strong competitor to her OS.
>> This of course means that SUSE because really strong, and will be more
>> strong in the future.
>
> Maybe/maybe not some us remember the netware days, and the days when
> wordperfect was the 'thing'.  I imagine in five years time novell will
> be wondering 'wow how did that happen' and Novell will be once again
> trying to redefine 'Novell'.
>
> You have your view I have mine.
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>
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Re: Goodbye to suse

HansvdMerwe
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West

On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 12:00 +0000, SheridanJ West wrote:

> I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
> mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
> and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
> persons.
>
> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>
> So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
> user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
> signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>
> While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
> 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
> better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>
> So thank you once again and goodbye.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

Your choice, good luck.

But.... without starting one of those boring anti MS threads:  What does
this really mean for OpenSUSE users? Aren't this just the thing to prove
that big corps cant kill Distros (as long as they are fully OSS)?



E-Mail disclaimer:
http://www.sunspace.co.za/emaildisclaimer.htm
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Re: Goodbye to suse

Dominique Leuenberger-2
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
 

>>> Reply on 13-11-2006 15:43:42 <<<> Basil Chupin wrote:
> >
>
> One thing a lot of people are forgetting, is there's still OpenSUSE,
> which contributes no money whatsoever to MS and isn't likely to receive
> any MS patents.
>
c'mon.. in all reports is written that the agreement assures that no USER will get sued my Microsoft. But I've never, really NEVER and NOWHERE read that MS would not sue Novell if they were infringing their patents. Why was this not put in the contract? Microsoft does not grant the usage of their patented work by Novell (there is NO Patent license fee) nor does Novell believe that they infringe any of the MS Patents. So there was basically no need/wish for such a clause
 
Dominique
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Re: Goodbye to suse

Janne Karhunen
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
On Monday 13 November 2006 14:00, SheridanJ West wrote:

> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'

That's perfectly valid point of view. Some comments from Bruce:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=206202&cid=16815242

But, in the end, that's the way even OSS business is done these
days. RH is hardly any better. Choose your poison.


--
// Janne
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Re: Goodbye to suse

James Knott
In reply to this post by James Knott
SheridanJ West wrote:
> On 11/13/06, James Knott <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Before being too hasty, please get your facts straight.  It is not a
>> licensing deal.  Novell ensured the agreement was compliant with GPL.
>> It doesn't give them the right to include MS patents in Linux.  It
>> simply means MS won't sue SUSE users,
>
> OK but it does sound like sco's offer.

It's not quite the same.  SCO had to know it was a fraudulent claim.  MS
may or may not have patents that are infringed.

>
>> should a patent violation turn
>> up.  Also, MS is paying Novell far more than what Novell pays MS, so the
>> net result is more money for Novell.  Someone else had posted a link to
>> a Novell Q&A page.  Perhaps you might want to read it.
>>
>> That said, I am opposed to any such deal with MS, as I'll always be
>> suspicious of them.
>
> Novell can still do without my 'hobby' disk order

There's always OpenSUSE.


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Re: Goodbye to suse

TheOldWiseKing
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
It's not easy to say that Novell will try to re-define 'Novell'. Business doesn't go such a way. But I think that by leaving SUSE, u r allowing Microsoft to become stronger, because u r leaving the OS that made Microsoft becomes afraid. After years of Work in SUSE to become a 'thing', now u r leaving it to another 'nothing'. How about if u join Mandriva community, and the community evolved until Mandriva Linux become a 'thing', then Microsoft did the same with Mandriva, will u leave it again??, if we do so, we will leave all great things and make them weak.

SUSE is not great with the its code or architecutre, SUSE is great with the community that created the great thing called SUSE.

I advice u not to leave it, and we shall wait until this storm goes away. and we will see what will happen between them.

and As james knott said, the deal shall force Microsoft to work under GPL, and this will not happen. Simply, Microsoft will not allow MS Word to be open source.

Regards,...

TheOldWiseKing

SheridanJ West wrote:
On 11/13/06, TheOldWiseKing [hidden email] wrote:
I have an opinion considering the deal between Microsoft and Novell. The
deal doesn't mean that Novell made a deal with evil,

replace word microsoft with the word sco

because this deal
has not been made long time ago, I think Microsoft did this step when
she realized that Novel SUSE has became a strong competitor to her OS.
This of course means that SUSE because really strong, and will be more
strong in the future.

Maybe/maybe not some us remember the netware days, and the days when
wordperfect was the 'thing'.  I imagine in five years time novell will
be wondering 'wow how did that happen' and Novell will be once again
trying to redefine 'Novell'.

You have your view I have mine.
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Re: Goodbye to suse

Joe Zitnik
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
I hate to break this to everybody, but this isn't about you and what you
run at home.  This is about the future of linux in the enterprise.
Novell has attorneys just like MS, and believe me, this wasn't entered
in to blindly by either side.  Just to accommodate all the conspiracy
theorists out there:  Say Microsoft decides to sue.  Maybe they have
just enough patent infringement evidence to bring a lawsuit, maybe they
don't.  Maybe they don't care.  What they do have is deep enough pockets
to bring long extended lawsuits that drain huge amounts of money from
linux distros, something Novell is now immune to for five years.
Remember, IBM doesn't own a linux distro (although they too have thrown
money behind Novell) and neither does Oracle, so it's not like there are
really deep pockets out there to support Linux.  During that time, if a
company wants to use linux, MS has said it is going to play nice with
SuSE, and right now, only SuSE.  How can that be bad for Novell?  I keep
reading about SCO, well SCO is about to go broke because they aren't
making a whole lot of money, and the lawsuits they brought are draining
what little financial resources they do have.
As for the beginning of my statement, can you imagine a major company
saying "We are going to standardize on Ubuntu in our enterprise."  If
you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.  There are two major
players in enterprise Linux, SuSE and RedHat, and RedHat has already
said their interest lies in the server-side of things, not the desktop,
so that leaves Novell.  Instead of being so pissed off, be happy that a
company might get it's Linux foot in the door.  It's the beginning of
what Linux people have been hoping for.

>>> On 11/13/2006 at 7:00 AM, "SheridanJ West"
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
> mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
> and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil
borg
> persons.
>
> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>
> So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a
hobby
> user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
> signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>
> While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
> 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
> better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>
> So thank you once again and goodbye.
>
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Re: Goodbye to suse

Sven Jacobs-3
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
> I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
> mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
> and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
> persons.
>
> Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>
> So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
> user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
> signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>
> While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
> 10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
> better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>
> So thank you once again and goodbye.

I'm still torn whether Novells decision was a good or bad choice.

On the one hand Novell will receive lots of money from Microsoft which
they can and hopefully will invest in good developers to increase the
quality of SuSE and open source projects.

On the other hand there's this awkward aftertaste that Novell has a deal
with the "devil". I wouldn't be surprised if Novell more and more will
use Mono for their tools, as a reward to the deal. I don't think this
would be a good idea because .NET is a product by Microsoft for which
they own all patents and copyrights. They could easily shut down
projects like Mono all of a sudden if they wanted to!

I know these are (wild) speculations but if I have the feeling that
Microsoft is somehow influencing the roadmap of (Open)SuSE in future I
probably will think about switching the distribution!
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Re: Goodbye to suse

JJ Gitties
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
On 11/13/06, SheridanJ West <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine to this
mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was waiting 10.2
and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the evil borg
persons.

Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'

So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us a hobby
user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal i
signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.

While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought disks for
10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can do
better  and mod perl 2 excites me.

So thank you once again and goodbye.
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I have similar inclinations as you. However, you do need to be practical. Meaning if there are certain apps that require SUSE or you are used to using SUSE, then just use the OpenSUSE. But whatever you do, do not buy boxed versions. Do not suggest to anyone to buy boxed. Do not suggest or recommend the enterprise versions at all. What I have started to do is, if someone asks me for my thoughts on SUSE, I just lie and say "I have personally found that it doesn't work as well as <insert other distro here>. But your mileage may vary." You can get away with stuff like that. All network environments are  different and they all have their peciuliarities.

If there is something that is making you stick with SUSE, then just keep using but don't send any money or help in any way. Waint until you actiually see concrete detrimental effects on open source that MS may instigate. Trust me, you will find out about it if it does happen.


--
jjgitties,

"*We* need to convince OpenSUSE to fork, or let 'em die. To bad, it is a wonderful Distro. But their parent company is NOT our friend."
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Re: Goodbye to suse

Basil Chupin
In reply to this post by Dominique Leuenberger-2
Dominique Leuenberger wrote:

>  
>
>  >>> Reply on 13-11-2006 15:43:42 <<<> Basil Chupin wrote:
>  > >
>  >
>  > One thing a lot of people are forgetting, is there's still OpenSUSE,
>  > which contributes no money whatsoever to MS and isn't likely to receive
>  > any MS patents.
>  >
> c'mon.. in all reports is written that the agreement assures that no
> USER will get sued my Microsoft. But I've never, really NEVER and
> NOWHERE read that MS would not sue Novell if they were infringing their
> patents. Why was this not put in the contract? Microsoft does not grant
> the usage of their patented work by Novell (there is NO Patent license
> fee) nor does Novell believe that they infringe any of the MS Patents.
> So there was basically no need/wish for such a clause
>  
> Dominique

Just for the record, if you are going to quote someone when responding
to a post then quote correctly-- *I* did not write what you attribute to
me as having "wrote".

Cheers.

--
If you really want to know, you won't ask me.

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Re: Goodbye to suse

clintin
In reply to this post by SheridanJ West
> >>> Reply on 13-11-2006 15:43:42 <<<> Basil Chupin wrote:
> > >
> >
> > One thing a lot of people are forgetting, is there's still OpenSUSE,
> > which contributes no money whatsoever to MS and isn't likely to
> > receiveany MS patents.
> >
>
> c'mon.. in all reports is written that the agreement assures that no
> USER will get sued my Microsoft. But I've never, really NEVER and
> NOWHERE read that MS would not sue Novell if they were infringing their
> patents. Why was this not put in the contract? Microsoft does not grant
> the usage of their patented work by Novell (there is NO Patent license
> fee) nor does Novell believe that they infringe any of the MS Patents.
> So there was basically no need/wish for such a clause

IMO, OpenSUSE, absent any statement of ownership or independence to the contrary, is a wholly owned entity on the books of Novell along with Ximian and its other acquisitions.  We can all be sure that Microsoft cannot be trusted and will usually do an end run around anything not in its interests and even in the agreements with Novell, it retained the right to change its pledges.  As far as Microsoft suing single end users, I don't know of them doing that but it is known they have no qualms about going after small businesses for violating their EULA's and agreements. Novell is not squeaky clean either.  Novell's legal department is very focused on protecting their IP and litigating against the piracy of any Novell product in any form, specifically software, electronic, and printed.  I am also aware of technology that Novell has buried that was not in their interest (technically probably infringing before acquisition).  One example is a German (I believe) company that had developed a very good Novell Client for authenticating to Novell from Linux; Right after it was seen in Brainshare session, it was said that Novell bought the company and then buried the technology.  It was so well buried as I could not find it available anywhere. Only recently has Novell made a Novell client available on openSuSE 10.1.  Also, Novell does a very good job of providing a great Linux desktop experience at Brainshare on their network including authentication, Novell connectivity, iPrint, groupwise, etc.;  I have yet to see how they do that or what technology they are using "under the covers" to provide that experience, something they seem to be keeping to themselves and their partners as protected IP.  I have been a long supporter of SuSE since about 6.0 and had bought every version including 10.0 of SuSE Professional (until they dropped the Professional).  I am coming to the conclusion that it is no longer in my interest to run openSUSE because of this agreement between Microsoft and Novell and given that openSUSE is a wholly owned and funded by Novell.  Novell could actually shut the doors on openSUSE if it found it in its interest to do so since it owns it and in one fell swoop, disenfrancise its users.  It is probably time to say goodbye to openSuSE as well.  Maybe if enough people do this, Novell will get the message that agreement is not in their interest or in the best interest of the Linux community.

Clint
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Re: Goodbye to suse

Michael Letourneau
In reply to this post by JJ Gitties

On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:01:36 -0500, "JJ Gitties" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

[snip]
> the enterprise versions at all. What I have started to do is, if someone
> asks me for my thoughts on SUSE, I just lie and say "I have personally
> found
> that it doesn't work as well as <insert other distro here>. But your
> mileage
> may vary." You can get away with stuff like that. All network environments
> are  different and they all have their peciuliarities.
>

You lie?  Wow this tells me loads about you right there.  How so
unprofessional.  I mean its one thing to not like some software, or a
company, but to actually lie about its performance or its merits.  Wow.

Well at least Novell, though legally obligated to, is releasing details of
their contract.  I am guessing that anyone you deal with has no idea that
you will just lie about things.

Dang.  I am amazed.

Michael

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Re: Goodbye to suse

Ken Schneider - openSUSE
In reply to this post by JJ Gitties
On Mon, 2006-11-13 at 10:01 -0500, JJ Gitties wrote:

> On 11/13/06, SheridanJ West <[hidden email]> wrote:
>         I'd like to thank all of you who have answered posts of mine
>         to this
>         mailing list (before it renamed).  For the record i was
>         waiting 10.2
>         and then bang Novell did a sco like licensing deal with the
>         evil borg
>         persons.
>        
>         Linux does not mean 'i support microsoft with money'
>        
>         So I'm moving to new distro.  Whether suse/novell consider us
>         a hobby
>         user is not important but supporting microsoft is not the deal
>         i
>         signed on with Suse before Novell bought it.
>        
>         While i may not be supporting the ms deal if say i bought
>         disks for
>         10, it's the thought that my loyalty is misplaced now.  I can
>         do
>         better  and mod perl 2 excites me.
>        
>         So thank you once again and goodbye.

Bla Bla Bla Bla.

Do we have an opensuse-ot list for this stuff.

http://en.opensuse.org/Opensuse_mailing_list_netiquette



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