Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

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Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
I want to get rid of postfix and exim from my laptop and yast objects.

why can't i get rid of postfix and exim?  I do not need a mail server
on my latop, but I do need cron.

Ruben

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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Carlos E. R.-2
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On Wednesday, 2008-10-22 at 13:14 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:

> I want to get rid of postfix and exim from my laptop and yast objects.
>
> why can't i get rid of postfix and exim?  I do not need a mail server
> on my latop, but I do need cron.

Why do you think you don't need it?

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.

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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Cristian Rodríguez
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
Ruben Safir escribió:
> I want to get rid of postfix and exim

You cannot have exim and postfix installed at the same time.. they are
conflicting packages.

from my laptop and yast objects.

what do you mean with "yast objects"

  I do not need a mail server
> on my latop, but I do need cron.

cron requires smtp_server capability.



--
"A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
mercy. "

Cristian Rodríguez R.
Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH
Research & Development
http://www.opensuse.org/



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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Carlos E. R.-2
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El 2008-10-22 a las 16:21 -0400, Anton Aylward escribió:

Please, reply on list.

> Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 03:11 PM:

>> Why do you think you don't need it?
>
> I've just converted from Mandriva and I didn't need it there.
> I didn't need it because I have a mail server on the network.
> Thunderbird connects to the mail server via IMAP and SMTP, so there is
> no need for SMTP services on my laptop.

For that use you are correct, you do not need it. But is is not the only
use.

> Cristian Rodríguez said the following on 10/22/2008 03:19 PM:
>> Ruben Safir escribió:
>>> I want to get rid of postfix and exim
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I do not need a mail server on my latop, but I do need cron.
>>
>> cron requires smtp_server capability.
>
> I can see how cron might need smtp to deliver mail, but what if cron is
> not installed?
What for? Cron has to be installed, there are system services that depend
on it - at least on an openSUSE system it is needed.

> Then again cron might only be delivering locally - this used to be done
> with mailx - so why is smtp needed.

I suppose it uses the sendmail command to send, not mailx. And I
understand that mailx uses the smtp server to send, anyway.


> In reality, shouldn't cron deliver its error messages via syslog?

No, it can't, or you might find thousands of syslog entries coming from
cron output. Would you prefer that?


> I really hate all these dependencies that arise out of lack of
> consideration of alternatives.

Then perhaps you should design a distro with those premises >:-)

- --
Saludos
        Carlos E.R.
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Carlos E. R.-3
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On Wednesday, 2008-10-22 at 19:02 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

Your mail did not reach the list. You need to subscribe first.

Answering to selected parts only. If you want your full mail to be seen,
then please mail it to the list yourself :-)


> Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 05:40 PM:

>>> Then again cron might only be delivering locally - this used to be done
>>> with mailx - so why is smtp needed.
>>
>> I suppose it uses the sendmail command to send, not mailx. And I
>> understand that mailx uses the smtp server to send, anyway.
>
> I'm new to SUSE but classically mailx was the LOCAL delivery agent that
> tools such as sendmail, exim and Postfix use.  The other way round from
> what you are suggesting.

Er... in openSUSE, mailx was introduced about 2 or 3 years ago, and it is
a MUA, mail user agent, aka mail client, that replaces the traditional
"mail". It is not a local delivery agent.

See "man mailx".



>>> In reality, shouldn't cron deliver its error messages via syslog?
>>
>> No, it can't, or you might find thousands of syslog entries coming from
>> cron output. Would you prefer that?
>
> It can - don't say "can't" about anything.  Its a design decision.
> I can open up the code or cron and make it all run though syslog, which
> or an enterprise system makes more sense.  If I want email notiicaiton I
> strap SWATCH onto syslog.

I would consider a bad design decision as worth of a "can't do" :-p


> I know this is possible because I've done it on old UNIX, AIX, DG/UX,
> AIX ... as I say, its not a "can't", its a decision.  This dependency
> shouldn't be "bolted in".
>
> As for "thousands" of syslog entries - that also means cron would be
> producing thousands of emails.

I don't mean that.

A job called by cron might produce an output of thousands lines, for a
single job. In openSUSE that output (if configured, on error) goes to a
single email.

However, if you don't like that behavior, but you want a philosophy so
contrary to the manner that SUSE has always done this, then you need
another distro, or roll your own, IMO.

SuSE is designed around certain design considerations, certain scripts are
included and supposed to work, and they need certain programs and
services to be installed.


> irewall system, which is useful.   I get messages from the
> authentication subsystem and much else, which on my laptop is quite
> irrelevant,  its not as if I'm short on disk space.  And they get rolled
> over by cron!

You can configure that. Its the logrotate configuration.


> The delivery doesn't have to be by mail - though it could with local
> delivery.  I could be by a message sent to a window or a pop-up.

Certainly not! It would not work for headless machines or text only
machines, or machines where the administrator is not logged it.

>
> The issue here is that if cron and others are not bolted in to mail then
> they don't have to deliver notification by mail.  if I *do* want to
> receive notification by mail I'll set that up with SWATCH.
>
>>> I really hate all these dependencies that arise out of lack of
>>> consideration of alternatives.
>>
>> Then perhaps you should design a distro with those premises >:-)
>
> Why?  I'm not in the business.

Then select another distro that does it your way :-)


> Unless we point this out and ask or it, its not going to happen.

Then ask for it officially, in Bugzilla.

> I say "I'm not in the business" and I mean that.  I don't have the time
> to do the level of re-engineering for an "Anton's Distribution".  But if
> the guys at Novell pay attention and decouple many more things like
> this we can all benefit.

I don't think that will happen. Fortunately (IMO)! >:-)

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Cristian Rodríguez
Carlos E. R. escribió:

> I don't think that will happen. Fortunately (IMO)! >:-)

Neither I do ;-) looks like he need a different tool instead of trying
to redesign an almost 40+yo tool that serves it's purpose just fine.



--
"A computer is like an Old Testament god, with a lot of rules and no
mercy. "

Cristian Rodríguez R.
Platform/OpenSUSE - Core Services
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH
Research & Development
http://www.opensuse.org/



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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Anton Aylward
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 08:07 PM:

See header:

>
> Er... in openSUSE, mailx was introduced about 2 or 3 years ago, and it is
> a MUA, mail user agent, aka mail client, that replaces the traditional
> "mail". It is not a local delivery agent.
>
> See "man mailx".


Sorry, I'm showing my BSD4.2 and SYSV-R4 roots :-)


>
>> As for "thousands" of syslog entries - that also means cron would be
>> producing thousands of emails.
>
> I don't mean that.
>
> .....
>
> SuSE is designed around certain design considerations, certain scripts are
> included and supposed to work, and they need certain programs and
> services to be installed.

I understand "dependency".
I also see "coupling" where coupling need not exist.

> You can configure that. Its the logrotate configuration.

BTDT.

>> The delivery doesn't have to be by mail - though it could with local
>> delivery.  I could be by a message sent to a window or a pop-up.
>
> Certainly not! It would not work for headless machines or text only
> machines, or machines where the administrator is not logged it.

Indeed.  Which is why SWATCH and other syslog watchers can pipe to
various destinations - SMS, pager... whatever.  It doesn't have to be a
pop-up.

The point is to uncouple.

More to the point, use of syslog integrates better with enterprise-level
 tools that consolidate reporting.  I've installed these in banks and
telcos; all the syslog gets routed to a central server and a database
where it can be sliced and diced and used to produce pretty graphs or
management, trend analysis, incident tracking feeds to ITIL .... and
much more.

Yes, I think piping syslog into Oracle is heavy stuff, but when you're a
bank coordinating an IT staff in the hundreds and need management and
tracking tools, this is the kind of thing that gets lapped up.

The issue here is that by not having strong coupling this becomes an
option where the user can define where the results go.

>> The issue here is that if cron and others are not bolted in to mail then
>> they don't have to deliver notification by mail.  if I *do* want to
>> receive notification by mail I'll set that up with SWATCH.
>
>>>> I really hate all these dependencies that arise out of lack of
>>>> consideration of alternatives.
>>> Then perhaps you should design a distro with those premises >:-)
>> Why?  I'm not in the business.
>
> Then select another distro that does it your way :-)

You may have time to try out all the distros; some people are paid to do
that.  I'm not.

A simple code change uncouples a dependency.
This thread started on with people complaining about a number of
dependencies.   SUSE has got rid of dependencies that other
distributions have - why not keep up that good work.  Not all
dependencies - yours and others - are actually necessary.

If I hadn't replaced Mandriva with SUSE then I could probably find more
examples; examples of dependencies your don't have that Mandriva does as
well as ones you have that Mandriva doesn't.  I'm sure other people who
have experience with other distributions can offer their own examples of
dependencies SUSE doesn't need to have.

So lets not obsess about CRON, OK?

>> Unless we point this out and ask or it, its not going to happen.
>
> Then ask for it officially, in Bugzilla.

Thank you.  Where?  (Remember, I'm new to SUSE)

>
>> I say "I'm not in the business" and I mean that.  I don't have the time
>> to do the level of re-engineering for an "Anton's Distribution".  But if
>> the guys at Novell pay attention and decouple many more things like
>> this we can all benefit.
>
> I don't think that will happen. Fortunately (IMO)! >:-)

I'm a little alarmed by that kind of statement.

--
A distracted figure with a huge bushy beard blunders in just as you
speak the word of ancient magic. The man wears loose clothing, and an
expression of intense concentration. He is clutching his frizzy hair
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Anton Aylward
In reply to this post by Cristian Rodríguez
Cristian Rodríguez said the following on 10/22/2008 08:47 PM:
> Carlos E. R. escribió:
>
>> I don't think that will happen. Fortunately (IMO)! >:-)
>
> Neither I do ;-) looks like he need a different tool instead of trying
> to redesign an almost 40+yo tool that serves it's purpose just fine.

Oh the irony!  oh the irony!

The first CRON I used was on a tape marked "Love, Dennis".
CRON got redesigned in BSD4.x and in SYSV.
The CRON Linux runs is not even the ATnT CRON code, and can run non-root
'crontabs'. (THAT was a great improvement!) It also didn't report by
mail!  Its code-base is derived from the version of CRON written by Paul
Vixie.

I've seen all those code-bases, and in the time since I first used V6
I've seen it change and yes it has been redesigned - a number of times.

Its like they say about that good ol' axe, had to replace the shaft a
few times and the head once or twice, but its done service!.

Oh, the irony!


--
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remain constant.  This is like driving a car by looking in the
rear view mirror.
    - Herb Brody
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward
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On Wednesday, 2008-10-22 at 20:48 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

> Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 08:07 PM:


>>> As for "thousands" of syslog entries - that also means cron would be
>>> producing thousands of emails.
>>
>> I don't mean that.
>>
>> .....

>>> The delivery doesn't have to be by mail - though it could with local
>>> delivery.  I could be by a message sent to a window or a pop-up.
>>
>> Certainly not! It would not work for headless machines or text only
>> machines, or machines where the administrator is not logged it.
>
> Indeed.  Which is why SWATCH and other syslog watchers can pipe to
> various destinations - SMS, pager... whatever.  It doesn't have to be a
> pop-up.
>
> The point is to uncouple.
>
> More to the point, use of syslog integrates better with enterprise-level
> tools that consolidate reporting.  I've installed these in banks and
> telcos; all the syslog gets routed to a central server and a database
> where it can be sliced and diced and used to produce pretty graphs or
> management, trend analysis, incident tracking feeds to ITIL .... and
> much more.
BTDT  :-)

But openSUSE is not a big enterprise distro, it is a "user" distro.


> Yes, I think piping syslog into Oracle is heavy stuff, but when you're a
> bank coordinating an IT staff in the hundreds and need management and
> tracking tools, this is the kind of thing that gets lapped up.
>
> The issue here is that by not having strong coupling this becomes an
> option where the user can define where the results go.


But you see, if you "decouple" the requirement or dependency of an smtp
server by services such as cron, I could not have my preferred method of
having cron mail me.

I don't object to your idea of having it all in the syslog: good for you.
But I want it on mail, as it has been for years and years here, so the
dependency has to stay, so that you can choose at config time.

Request, if you like, a configuration option for cron output to be sent to
syslog or to email, ok, fine; but the dependency can not be broken,
because it would force us to have cron output your way.

After all, it's just some megabytes more, at worst.

But I fear that such a change would imply many changes to many scripts, so
it will not be done - unless perhaps somebody designs and supply it as an
alternative package(s) (see buildservice, community repos, etc).


>>>>> I really hate all these dependencies that arise out of lack of
>>>>> consideration of alternatives.
>>>> Then perhaps you should design a distro with those premises >:-)
>>> Why?  I'm not in the business.
>>
>> Then select another distro that does it your way :-)
>
> You may have time to try out all the distros; some people are paid to do
> that.  I'm not.

No, I searched around once, I choosed, and I stayed. If I really wanted
something I could not find here, I would then see if I could make it
myself or look around again for it.

That's how things are.

    If I were paid to install Linux for a company with certain "special"
    requirements, then it would be my job to find and search for it; or
    I'd have searched beforehand, and charge for that knowledge; or I'd
    request the company to hire somebody with that knowledge.

openSUSE folks are not paid, either, to tailor the distro to each one
preferences! :-)




> A simple code change uncouples a dependency.
> This thread started on with people complaining about a number of
> dependencies.   SUSE has got rid of dependencies that other
> distributions have - why not keep up that good work.  Not all
> dependencies - yours and others - are actually necessary.

SMTP currently is.


>>> Unless we point this out and ask or it, its not going to happen.
>>
>> Then ask for it officially, in Bugzilla.
>
> Thank you.  Where?  (Remember, I'm new to SUSE)

For example:

www.opensuse.org --> discover it --> Report a Bug


]  Report a Bug
]
]  With our open Bugzilla system, you have direct access to further the
]  development of openSUSE.
]
]  Submitting Bug Reports – Bug Reporting FAQ

One of the options when filling a bug is to classify the "bug" as a feature
request.

Read the "Bug Reporting FAQ", feature request is mentioned. There is a
feature wishlist page, too.



>>> I say "I'm not in the business" and I mean that.  I don't have the time
>>> to do the level of re-engineering for an "Anton's Distribution".  But if
>>> the guys at Novell pay attention and decouple many more things like
>>> this we can all benefit.
>>
>> I don't think that will happen. Fortunately (IMO)! >:-)
>
> I'm a little alarmed by that kind of statement.

:-)

You say you are new to suse; I'm not. I'm sure you know how other distros
or Unixes behave better than me, but allow me to say I can guess better
than you what suse people will feel about your idea (about smtp).

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
In reply to this post by Cristian Rodríguez
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

> Ruben Safir escribió:
>  
>> I want to get rid of postfix and exim
>>    
>
> You cannot have exim and postfix installed at the same time.. they are
> conflicting packages.
>
> from my laptop and yast objects.
>
> what do you mean with "yast objects"
>
>   I do not need a mail server
>  
>> on my latop, but I do need cron.
>>    
>
> cron requires smtp_server capability.
>
>
>
>  

No - it doesn't and it hasn't for the decade that I've used it on laptops.

Ruben

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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward
Anton Aylward wrote:

> Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 08:07 PM:
>
> See header:
>
>  
>> Er... in openSUSE, mailx was introduced about 2 or 3 years ago, and it is
>> a MUA, mail user agent, aka mail client, that replaces the traditional
>> "mail". It is not a local delivery agent.
>>
>> See "man mailx".
>>    
>
>
> Sorry, I'm showing my BSD4.2 and SYSV-R4 roots :-)
>
>
>  
>>> As for "thousands" of syslog entries - that also means cron would be
>>> producing thousands of emails.
>>>      
>> I don't mean that.
>>
>> .....
>>
>> SuSE is designed around certain design considerations, certain scripts are
>> included and supposed to work, and they need certain programs and
>> services to be installed.
>>    
>
> I understand "dependency".
> I also see "coupling" where coupling need not exist.
>
>  
>> You can configure that. Its the logrotate configuration.
>>    
>
> BTDT.
>
>  
>>> The delivery doesn't have to be by mail - though it could with local
>>> delivery.  I could be by a message sent to a window or a pop-up.
>>>      
>> Certainly not! It would not work for headless machines or text only
>> machines, or machines where the administrator is not logged it.
>>    
>
> Indeed.  Which is why SWATCH and other syslog watchers can pipe to
> various destinations - SMS, pager... whatever.  It doesn't have to be a
> pop-up.
>
> The point is to uncouple.
>
> More to the point, use of syslog integrates better with enterprise-level
>  tools that consolidate reporting.  I've installed these in banks and
> telcos; all the syslog gets routed to a central server and a database
> where it can be sliced and diced and used to produce pretty graphs or
> management, trend analysis, incident tracking feeds to ITIL .... and
> much more.
>
> Yes, I think piping syslog into Oracle is heavy stuff, but when you're a
> bank coordinating an IT staff in the hundreds and need management and
> tracking tools, this is the kind of thing that gets lapped up.
>
> The issue here is that by not having strong coupling this becomes an
> option where the user can define where the results go.
>
>  
>>> The issue here is that if cron and others are not bolted in to mail then
>>> they don't have to deliver notification by mail.  if I *do* want to
>>> receive notification by mail I'll set that up with SWATCH.
>>>      
>>>>> I really hate all these dependencies that arise out of lack of
>>>>> consideration of alternatives.
>>>>>          
>>>> Then perhaps you should design a distro with those premises >:-)
>>>>        
>>> Why?  I'm not in the business.
>>>      
>> Then select another distro that does it your way :-)
>>    
>
> You may have time to try out all the distros; some people are paid to do
> that.  I'm not.
>
> A simple code change uncouples a dependency.
> This thread started on with people complaining about a number of
> dependencies.   SUSE has got rid of dependencies that other
> distributions have - why not keep up that good work.  Not all
> dependencies - yours and others - are actually necessary.
>
> If I hadn't replaced Mandriva with SUSE then I could probably find more
> examples; examples of dependencies your don't have that Mandriva does as
> well as ones you have that Mandriva doesn't.  I'm sure other people who
> have experience with other distributions can offer their own examples of
> dependencies SUSE doesn't need to have.
>
> So lets not obsess about CRON, OK?
>
>  

Its worse than that though.  If you remove cron a whole cascade of
problems crop up.

In the end I downloaded the rpm and querried the files for postfix  and
ran a script to just remove them by hand.

It's just unbelievable and I can never tell what Yast will do.  It
wasn't always like this.  You used to have more control
up to and including 9.3

Every SuSE Desktop host needs a SMTP and the port open?  No, obviously
they don't.

Ruben

>>> Unless we point this out and ask or it, its not going to happen.
>>>      
>> Then ask for it officially, in Bugzilla.
>>    
>
> Thank you.  Where?  (Remember, I'm new to SUSE)
>
>  
>>> I say "I'm not in the business" and I mean that.  I don't have the time
>>> to do the level of re-engineering for an "Anton's Distribution".  But if
>>> the guys at Novell pay attention and decouple many more things like
>>> this we can all benefit.
>>>      
>> I don't think that will happen. Fortunately (IMO)! >:-)
>>    
>
> I'm a little alarmed by that kind of statement.
>
>  

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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Carlos E. R. wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 2008-10-22 at 20:48 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:
>
>> Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 08:07 PM:
>
>
>>>> As for "thousands" of syslog entries - that also means cron would be
>>>> producing thousands of emails.
>>>
>>> I don't mean that.
>>>
>>> .....
>
>>>> The delivery doesn't have to be by mail - though it could with local
>>>> delivery.  I could be by a message sent to a window or a pop-up.
>>>
>>> Certainly not! It would not work for headless machines or text only
>>> machines, or machines where the administrator is not logged it.
>>
>> Indeed.  Which is why SWATCH and other syslog watchers can pipe to
>> various destinations - SMS, pager... whatever.  It doesn't have to be a
>> pop-up.
>>
>> The point is to uncouple.
>>
>> More to the point, use of syslog integrates better with enterprise-level
>> tools that consolidate reporting.  I've installed these in banks and
>> telcos; all the syslog gets routed to a central server and a database
>> where it can be sliced and diced and used to produce pretty graphs or
>> management, trend analysis, incident tracking feeds to ITIL .... and
>> much more.
>
> BTDT  :-)
>
> But openSUSE is not a big enterprise distro, it is a "user" distro.

Yeah - and every desktop needs Postfix?  No.  Aside which, what does
that mean.  OpenSuSe can't
run big iron because Novell markets something else?

It seems to function fine on large systems.

>
>
>> Yes, I think piping syslog into Oracle is heavy stuff, but when you're a
>> bank coordinating an IT staff in the hundreds and need management and
>> tracking tools, this is the kind of thing that gets lapped up.
>>
>> The issue here is that by not having strong coupling this becomes an
>> option where the user can define where the results go.
>
>
> But you see, if you "decouple" the requirement or dependency of an
> smtp server by services such as cron, I could not have my preferred
> method of having cron mail me.
>

I don't really care what your preferred method of getting information
from cron is.  I do care that you THINK that if you decouple them that
you can't get mail with Cron?

What?  Is that a sensible line of reasoning?  Should adduser also
require postfix because users might need mail?

 

> I don't object to your idea of having it all in the syslog: good for
> you. But I want it on mail, as it has been for years and years here,
> so the dependency has to stay, so that you can choose at config time.
>
> Request, if you like, a configuration option for cron output to be
> sent to syslog or to email, ok, fine; but the dependency can not be
> broken, because it would force us to have cron output your way.
>

Your so locked in that it is UNBELIEVABLE.  My god.  I really need to
find a different distro.  Unbunuto was too limited.  Debian packages
suck.  Gentoo is impracticable.

All I want is a darn laptop to run wmaker, which can use its wifi, get
on the net, use open office and play some video.  SuSE 9.1 did this in
600megs of space with no postfix.
except for the wmaker part, Xandros did this for my eeepc.  I don't even
have room for Open Office because of the insane co-dependencies.

Frankly. you guys have gone nuts.  I can't remove openldap, sasl
bluetooth, SAMBA and much more

> After all, it's just some megabytes more, at worst.
>
> But I fear that such a change would imply many changes to many
> scripts, so it will not be done - unless perhaps somebody designs and
> supply it as an alternative package(s) (see buildservice, community
> repos, etc).
>
>
>>>>>> I really hate all these dependencies that arise out of lack of
>>>>>> consideration of alternatives.
>>>>> Then perhaps you should design a distro with those premises >:-)
>>>> Why?  I'm not in the business.
>>>
>>> Then select another distro that does it your way :-)
>>
>> You may have time to try out all the distros; some people are paid to do
>> that.  I'm not.
>
> No, I searched around once, I choosed, and I stayed. If I really
> wanted something I could not find here, I would then see if I could
> make it myself or look around again for it.
>
> That's how things are.
>
>    If I were paid to install Linux for a company with certain "special"
>    requirements, then it would be my job to find and search for it; or
>    I'd have searched beforehand, and charge for that knowledge; or I'd
>    request the company to hire somebody with that knowledge.
>
> openSUSE folks are not paid, either, to tailor the distro to each one
> preferences! :-)
>
>
>
>
>> A simple code change uncouples a dependency.
>> This thread started on with people complaining about a number of
>> dependencies.   SUSE has got rid of dependencies that other
>> distributions have - why not keep up that good work.  Not all
>> dependencies - yours and others - are actually necessary.
>
> SMTP currently is.
>
>
>>>> Unless we point this out and ask or it, its not going to happen.
>>>
>>> Then ask for it officially, in Bugzilla.
>>
>> Thank you.  Where?  (Remember, I'm new to SUSE)
>
> For example:
>
> www.opensuse.org --> discover it --> Report a Bug
>
>
> ]  Report a Bug
> ]
> ]  With our open Bugzilla system, you have direct access to further
> the ]  development of openSUSE.
> ]
> ]  Submitting Bug Reports – Bug Reporting FAQ
>
> One of the options when filling a bug is to classify the "bug" as a
> feature request.
>
> Read the "Bug Reporting FAQ", feature request is mentioned. There is a
> feature wishlist page, too.
>
>
>
>>>> I say "I'm not in the business" and I mean that.  I don't have the
>>>> time
>>>> to do the level of re-engineering for an "Anton's Distribution".  
>>>> But if
>>>> the guys at Novell pay attention and decouple many more things like
>>>> this we can all benefit.
>>>
>>> I don't think that will happen. Fortunately (IMO)! >:-)
>>
>> I'm a little alarmed by that kind of statement.
>
> :-)
>
> You say you are new to suse; I'm not. I'm sure you know how other
> distros or Unixes behave better than me, but allow me to say I can
> guess better than you what suse people will feel about your idea
> (about smtp).
>
> - -- Cheers,
>        Carlos E. R.
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
Ruben Safir wrote:

[snip]
> Its worse than that though.  If you remove cron a whole cascade of
> problems crop up.
>
> In the end I downloaded the rpm and querried the files for postfix
> and ran a script to just remove them by hand.
>
> It's just unbelievable and I can never tell what Yast will do.  It
> wasn't always like this.  You used to have more control
> up to and including 9.3

AFAIR, you were never able to deselect the MTA - unless you forced it.

> Every SuSE Desktop host needs a SMTP and the port open?  No, obviously
> they don't.

Ah, yes they do and the MTA will only be listening on localhost:25.
There are about a million scripts that depend on being able to use
sendmail (the mail delivery utility, not the MTA) for notifying root
about all kinds of events.  Basically you need sendmail, and only the
MTA packages provide that.  Second, in order for those mails to be
processed, you need an MTA which in turn can deliver them to your
inbox, which you can subsequently access with TB or mail or telephathy.


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Anton Aylward
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 10:00 PM:
>

>
> But openSUSE is not a big enterprise distro, it is a "user" distro.

So you re saying that this should not be used as a desktop Linux in an
enterprise?

Can I quote you on that?

>
> But you see, if you "decouple" the requirement or dependency of an smtp
> server by services such as cron, I could not have my preferred method of
> having cron mail me.

Why do you conclude that?
You statement is only accurate in that cron would not be DIRECTLY
mailing you.

If you use a tool such as SWATCH or SEC then any syslog event can mail you.

Both those tools are smart enough to condense multiple lines down to one
'event'.

As it stands, cron can _only_ mail me.  It will _always_ mail me.
Most of the time I'm not interested.  I only want to know if something
is wrong.

Marcus Ranum, talking about firewalls and IDS, makes the analogy with an
umbrella that notifies you about every raindrop that hits it.

Having tools like cron mail me when everything is OK is like that.
Using tools like SWATCH or SEC lets _me_ decide what I need to be
notified of and how I will be notified (mail, sms, pager, phone, popup,
whatever ...)

Nothing is stopping you from having cron notify you by mail - via syslog.

http://www.estpak.ee/~risto/sec/

This thread began about a dependency.  There are other dependencies in
other threads - bluetooth for example.

These is also the issue of the context of the installation.  laptops
have been cited.

Finally there is the situation that is very common where the "user" (you
said this was a "user" installation) does not make use of the stem mail
facilities but rather reads mail using a web interface such as gmail, or
uses something like Thunderbird to read the mail at their ISP via POP or
IMAP and uses Thunderbird's own SMTP service to send directly to the
ISP.  I would imagine this would be quite common with "home" "users" and
laptop "users".  After all, Postfix is an "enterprise" level MTA.
Wietse Venema, its designer and author, intended it as such.  While its
easier to set up than sendmail, it is a very powerful and capable tool.
It is most definitely intended for a enterprise level mail hub (I have
been using it for many years as such on my dedicated mail host) and
needs a fair bit of consideration to set up correctly.

But CRON isn't the only wacky dependency.
Have a look at the ldap software you are _required_ to have loaded.
Try uninstalling the openldap client or ldap_pam.
LDAP is bolted in to a whole pile of things like your printer
management, inetd management and http server management.  You have to
have this even if you don't use LDAP.

Now LDAP should be an option, like NIS/YP,that controlled by something
like the nsswitch.  The whole point of PAM is that its _pluggable_.  If
you don't plug that module in its never used.

Once again I point to other implementations that have figured this out
and not been faced with this crazy situation.

Failing to install LDAP shouldn't mean that I can't use YAST to
configure printers, add users or point my laptop and samba server.

Try for yourself.  In the software installer do a SEARCH for "ldap" with
only "RPM REQUIRES".  We get such things as Thunderbird, Adobe reader,
cURL, and Kgpg.  Try some other values to search for and see what other
wacky dependencies you can find.

I mention this because LDAP is most certainly an _enterprise_ tool, not
one would normally install on a laptop.  A single user system, a
non-enterprise "user" can get by with the /etc/passwd (&family) file(s).
That's what nsswitch is for.  If you comment out the "nis" and "ldap"
from there, then those facilities never get used.

Once again, PAM is pluggable.  The SYSLOG model allows you to select
whether you want to know about various events.  In a "user" setting many
of these *MANDATORY* things are pure overhead.  Simple "users" will read
their mail on the web - that's what the internet is for!   Simple users
won't set up Samba server but may connect to them.  Simple users won't
set up DNS servers but will connect to them.

Carlos, you seem to want it both ways.  You say openSUSE is a "user"
system not an enterprise one, but its set up to force the installation
of enterprise software that is not appropriate to the context a simple
"user".



--
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a single overriding objective, and make all other considerations bend to
that one objective.
    Dwight D. Eisenhower, speech, April 2, 1957
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
Ruben Safir wrote:

> I don't really care what your preferred method of getting information
> from cron is.  I do care that you THINK that if you decouple them that
> you can't get mail with Cron?
>
> What?  Is that a sensible line of reasoning?  Should adduser also
> require postfix because users might need mail?

Ruben, why are you so hung up about having an MTA installed on your
desktop?  It's probably one of the least superfluous packages in an
openSUSE install.

> All I want is a darn laptop to run wmaker, which can use its wifi, get
> on the net, use open office and play some video.  SuSE 9.1 did this in
> 600megs of space with no postfix.

We've got a couple of company laptops that do this with 10.1 in about
1000Mbytes (I'm not sure), with postfix installed.  
I think you're wasting a lot of time and effort on a completely
pointless exercise.  If you want to save space, delete emacs (assuming
you don't use that).


/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Per Jessen
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward
Anton Aylward wrote:

> Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 10:00 PM:
>>
>> But openSUSE is not a big enterprise distro, it is a "user" distro.
>
> So you re saying that this should not be used as a desktop Linux in an
> enterprise?
> Can I quote you on that?

I certainly can't speak for Carlos, but why not?  SLES and SLED are the
big enterprise distros.  

> As it stands, cron can _only_ mail me.  It will _always_ mail me.
> Most of the time I'm not interested.  I only want to know if something
> is wrong.

I must be missing the context here - cron can mail anyone in the world,
just set MAILTO in the crontab.

> Marcus Ranum, talking about firewalls and IDS, makes the analogy with
> an umbrella that notifies you about every raindrop that hits it.
>
> Having tools like cron mail me when everything is OK is like that.

Then don't let it do that - have your scripts write to stderr when
something is wrong, and only mail any stderr output.  

> Using tools like SWATCH or SEC lets _me_ decide what I need to be
> notified of and how I will be notified (mail, sms, pager, phone,
> popup, whatever ...)

I don't know those tools, but we achieve roughly the same with postfix
and sms_client.  We generate sms alerts based on emails from various
snmp traps, mdadm and smartd.

> Nothing is stopping you from having cron notify you by mail - via
> syslog.

Yep, anyone can pipe output to "logger".



/Per Jessen, Zürich

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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Ruben Safir Secretary NYLXS
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On Thursday, 2008-10-23 at 01:12 -0400, Ruben Safir wrote:

> In the end I downloaded the rpm and querried the files for postfix  and ran a
> script to just remove them by hand.

And now you have a broken machine. Suit yourself.

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.

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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward
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On Thursday, 2008-10-23 at 03:12 -0400, Anton Aylward wrote:

> Carlos E. R. said the following on 10/22/2008 10:00 PM:
>>
>> But openSUSE is not a big enterprise distro, it is a "user" distro.
>
> So you re saying that this should not be used as a desktop Linux in an
> enterprise?
>
> Can I quote you on that?

Of course you can. I don't work for, nor speak for, SUSE or Novell in any
way - except as a community member, ie, one more of the millions that
volunteer work for Linux.

openSUSE is the community distro. The enterprise distros are SLES/SLED.
See Novell page for more info.

And of course you can use openSUSE in any enterprise. It's up to you. In
fact, many people do. I have.



> As it stands, cron can _only_ mail me.  It will _always_ mail me.

Not true.


> Having tools like cron mail me when everything is OK is like that.
> Using tools like SWATCH or SEC lets _me_ decide what I need to be
> notified of and how I will be notified (mail, sms, pager, phone, popup,
> whatever ...)
>
> Nothing is stopping you from having cron notify you by mail - via syslog.

Nothing stops you from having syslog notify you - dumped from email :-P

This way you do not break SUSE scripts and configurations, nor everybody
else's configuration.

I do not want to use SWATCH or SEC or NFM or whatever in my systems. I do
not need it. Them.


> This thread began about a dependency.  There are other dependencies in
> other threads - bluetooth for example.

I know nothing about bluetooth, so I will not comment.

In general, I prefer not wasting time removing components. Certainly not
components as the MTA.


> These is also the issue of the context of the installation.  laptops
> have been cited.

Laptops nowdays have many gigabytes of space. Not an issue anymore.


> But CRON isn't the only wacky dependency.
> Have a look at the ldap software you are _required_ to have loaded.
> Try uninstalling the openldap client or ldap_pam.
> LDAP is bolted in to a whole pile of things like your printer
> management, inetd management and http server management.  You have to
> have this even if you don't use LDAP.

Well, I don't use ldap, but many do. Yast can configure LDAP for users
login data. I don't care if it is installed.

The point is, the moment a program declares that it can use LDAP, by,
for instance, linking to a library function of ldap, then ldap will be
pulled in by dependencies. Even if you don't use it. That's the way things
work here, with rpm.

If you think or know how this can be undone, then perhaps you may tell
SUSE packages how to do that. There is a packaging mail list.


> Try for yourself.  In the software installer do a SEARCH for "ldap" with
> only "RPM REQUIRES".  We get such things as Thunderbird, Adobe reader,
> cURL, and Kgpg.  Try some other values to search for and see what other
> wacky dependencies you can find.

But of course. If Thunderbird has the ability to search on ldap for
addresses, obviously this will link some library for/of ldap... so it
depends on it.

Again, if you want to convince Novell people of somehow removing that
dependency, this is not the place. The devs will most probably not even
read this.

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Anton Aylward
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
Per Jessen said the following on 10/23/2008 04:26 AM:
> Anton Aylward wrote:

>
>> As it stands, cron can _only_ mail me.  It will _always_ mail me.
>> Most of the time I'm not interested.  I only want to know if something
>> is wrong.
>
> I must be missing the context here - cron can mail anyone in the world,
> just set MAILTO in the crontab.

You are misreadin the emphasis.  It is on "mail" ratehr than "me".

As in the mail function is mandatory and implicit.
I realise that the destination can be overridden.



--
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Re: Getting Rid of postfix and exim on my laptop

Dave Howorth
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Laptops nowdays have many gigabytes of space. Not an issue anymore.

But netbooks don't! :) Space is still an issue.

Cheers, Dave
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