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From offtopic list.

Fred A. Miller
On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:

> Hi Fred,
>
> On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
>
>  
>> Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per
>> many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
>>    
> You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to
> voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this
> signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a
> very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
>  

First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know
what's
going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my
choice
but yours.

There are MANY here who don't agree with you. Part of the MAJOR
problems presently being experienced in Europe is that there's been a
great deal
of PC towards Muslims, and now look at the problems!!!! It is a pagan
religion of
HATE, lies, and deceit. I can not give into any Muslim whining. The
truth is the truth
and I WON'T hold back at any time anywhere.....period!! So, I guess you
might as well
take me off all openSUSE elists. I use various sigs as I rotate them
from time to time. I
don't worry if one isn't PC for a Muslim nor anyone else. Principle is
MUCH more
important than my being here. I'm an American with a 1st amendment
right, and a
God given right of free speech, and I WON'T give either up!!

I've enjoyed using SuSE for MANY years, have helped a LOT of people with
their
problems, and have it installed on a whole LOT of systems. Oh well,
there are other
distros.

It just seems really ignorant, Henne, that you have responded this way
to me because
of someone who's NOT been on this list till now, who more than likely -
IF we
knew the truth and I know we won't - isn't who he/she claims to be and
has a REAL name
he/she's not giving. Further, what about the anti-Christian snide
remarks that have been
on more than one list off and on for a LONG time?

Have I or anyone else been complaining to you about that?! Of course
not!! I know,
Henne.....what's fair for the goose isn't fair for the gander as long as
you're a Muslim
or a Muslim sympathizer, then no one better tell the true about Islam or
criticize it in any
way! ALL other religions are fair game, however. But, it's your show, Henne.

Fred

--
“The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of
civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an
unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.”
--Sir William Muir

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Re: From offtopic list.

Tony Alfrey
Fred A. Miller wrote:

> On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
>> Hi Fred,
>>
>> On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
>>
>>  
>>> Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per
>>> many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
>>>    
>> You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to
>> voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this
>> signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a
>> very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
>>  
>
> First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know
> what's
> going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my
> choice
> but yours.

I've seen a variety of your (Mr. Miller's) signatures that I've found
offensive (some remarks about 'liberals';  I'm one of those "evil"
people) but I've said nothing because I'm not a major participant on
this list.  But the list is not a political forum, it is simply a
discussion about software.  So adding content that is bound to be
controversial is simply counterproductive to the objective (or what I
thought was the objective) of the list.  There are many other forums
where you can freely express your opinions about religion.
An argument about kde 3.5 or 4.x seems appropriate.  Signatures that
amount to hand grenades about inherently subjective topics seem
inappropriate for this particular list.
My 2 cents (or euro-cents, whatever they call them).



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Re: From offtopic list.

Fred A. Miller
On 03/10/2010 08:33 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

> Fred A. Miller wrote:
>> On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
>>> Hi Fred,
>>>
>>> On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as
>>>> per
>>>> many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
>>> You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not
>>> entitled to
>>> voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see
>>> this
>>> signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a
>>> very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
>>
>> First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know
>> what's
>> going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my
>> choice
>> but yours.
>
> I've seen a variety of your (Mr. Miller's) signatures that I've found
> offensive (some remarks about 'liberals'; I'm one of those "evil"
> people) but I've said nothing because I'm not a major participant on
> this list. But the list is not a political forum, it is simply a
> discussion about software. So adding content that is bound to be
> controversial is simply counterproductive to the objective (or what I
> thought was the objective) of the list. There are many other forums
> where you can freely express your opinions about religion.
> An argument about kde 3.5 or 4.x seems appropriate. Signatures that
> amount to hand grenades about inherently subjective topics seem
> inappropriate for this particular list.
> My 2 cents (or euro-cents, whatever they call them).


Tony, a lot of people use sigs......some I like and some I don't. I
don't complain about any of them....it's a FREE SPEECH issue....PERIOD.
There are many on a lot of the lists who I don't agree with. For
example, Basil and I get into it frequently on the off-topic list, but
if Henne tried to kick him off, he'd have a BIG ration of grief from me
and I suspect some others who also don't agree with Basil. I don't like
censorship for ANYONE, whether I agree with them or not doesn't
matter.....censorship is WRONG, anywhere at anytime....PERIOD!

Fred

--
“The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of
civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an
unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.”
--Sir William Muir

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Re: From offtopic list.

Fred A. Miller
In reply to this post by Fred A. Miller
On 03/10/2010 08:44 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
> Hello Fred,
>  
[snip]
> I think it matters not if anyone agrees or disagrees with your views.
> While all religions may be fair game, I think the point is that the
> opensuse list is a mailing list devoted to the discussions of issues
> related to Linux in general and opensuse in particular.   I believe that
> the community at large discourages (for good reason) the overt
> declaration of options related to religion, politics, etc.  
>
>  
My content here has NOTHING to do with anything but openSUSE or
related issues, software, etc. A sig. is a sig. is a sig.....NOT content.
> FWIW, I am also an American.  I realize that my 1st Amendment rights
> don't extend beyond the shores of the US.  I also realize that my rights
> aren't absolute and expressing my views may not be without
> consequence...e.g. libel
>
>  
I've quoted a vast number of well-known people. Libel? I don't think so!!
> Above you said...."Oh well, there are other distros."  While there are
> other distros, their mailing lists have much the same guidelines.  The
> signature you used would have been greeted with similar dissent on the
> Fedora list.
>
> There is a time and place for everything.
>  
I have no interest in Fedora. My sigs have been on other disto. lists
with NO
comments.

Fred

--
“The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of
civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an
unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.”
--Sir William Muir

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Re: From offtopic list.

Ed Greshko
Fred A. Miller wrote:

> On 03/10/2010 08:44 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:
>  
>> Hello Fred,
>>  
>>    
> [snip]
>  
>> I think it matters not if anyone agrees or disagrees with your views.
>> While all religions may be fair game, I think the point is that the
>> opensuse list is a mailing list devoted to the discussions of issues
>> related to Linux in general and opensuse in particular.   I believe that
>> the community at large discourages (for good reason) the overt
>> declaration of options related to religion, politics, etc.  
>>
>>  
>>    
> My content here has NOTHING to do with anything but openSUSE or
> related issues, software, etc. A sig. is a sig. is a sig.....NOT content.
>  
I sent my message to you offlist since, IMHO, this belongs offlist.  I
should have made that clear.

FWIW, anything that you include in your email is "content".   It is part
of what you send...and you are responsible for everything you send.
>> FWIW, I am also an American.  I realize that my 1st Amendment rights
>> don't extend beyond the shores of the US.  I also realize that my rights
>> aren't absolute and expressing my views may not be without
>> consequence...e.g. libel
>>
>>  
>>    
> I've quoted a vast number of well-known people. Libel? I don't think so!!
>  
I did not say you have libel anyone.  I said "free speech" doesn't mean
you can't be found "libel".  My comment is not related to what you've
said thus far..but simply illustrates the limits of "free speech".

>> Above you said...."Oh well, there are other distros."  While there are
>> other distros, their mailing lists have much the same guidelines.  The
>> signature you used would have been greeted with similar dissent on the
>> Fedora list.
>>
>> There is a time and place for everything.
>>  
>>    
> I have no interest in Fedora. My sigs have been on other disto. lists
> with NO comments.
>
>  
I only used "Fedora" as an example.  

In any event, all of this should have remained on the "off list"....and
how I intended my comments to remain.  I'm sorry you felt the need to
bring it public as I am equally sorry for not having made it clear in my
email to you.  Feel "free" to respond "off list" as it is my request
that you not continue to post my off list comments on list.  


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Re: From offtopic list.

Tony Alfrey
In reply to this post by Fred A. Miller
Fred A. Miller wrote:

> On 03/10/2010 08:33 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
>> Fred A. Miller wrote:
>>> On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
>>>> Hi Fred,
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as
>>>>> per
>>>>> many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
>>>> You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not
>>>> entitled to
>>>> voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see
>>>> this
>>>> signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a
>>>> very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
>>> First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know
>>> what's
>>> going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my
>>> choice
>>> but yours.
>> I've seen a variety of your (Mr. Miller's) signatures that I've found
>> offensive (some remarks about 'liberals'; I'm one of those "evil"
>> people) but I've said nothing because I'm not a major participant on
>> this list. But the list is not a political forum, it is simply a
>> discussion about software. So adding content that is bound to be
>> controversial is simply counterproductive to the objective (or what I
>> thought was the objective) of the list. There are many other forums
>> where you can freely express your opinions about religion.
>> An argument about kde 3.5 or 4.x seems appropriate. Signatures that
>> amount to hand grenades about inherently subjective topics seem
>> inappropriate for this particular list.
>> My 2 cents (or euro-cents, whatever they call them).
>
>
> Tony, a lot of people use sigs......some I like and some I don't. I
> don't complain about any of them....it's a FREE SPEECH issue....PERIOD.
> There are many on a lot of the lists who I don't agree with. For
> example, Basil and I get into it frequently on the off-topic list, but
> if Henne tried to kick him off, he'd have a BIG ration of grief from me
> and I suspect some others who also don't agree with Basil. I don't like
> censorship for ANYONE, whether I agree with them or not doesn't
> matter.....censorship is WRONG, anywhere at anytime....PERIOD!
>
> Fred

Then since you don't "get it", I'm sure you won't mind if I filter your
posts, to which are attached your offensive, political, and inflammatory
sigs which are simply off-topic to the purported objective of the list.
You have the right to stand on any street corner in the US and proclaim
whatever it is that you believe.  You may create your own website and
say literally anything that you wish.  You may print your manifesto and
nail it to any signpost in America as Thomas Paine once did.  But the
operators of this list have the right to set up whatever rules that they
wish about the content of the list.  This does not infringe on any
rights you have to express your views on an infinite number of other
forums.  But it is also the right of any group to set up their own
blog/forum/list whatever and set up whatever rules that they wish.  You
are confusing your right of freedom of speech in a PUBLIC forum with the
right of a private group to restrict what content is posted on their
private forum.  If I do not like the rules that the private group has
set up, I am free not to join and to make my opinions known elsewhere.
Your right of free speech has not been violated or suppressed.



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Re: From offtopic list.

Brian K. White
In reply to this post by Fred A. Miller
Fred A. Miller wrote:
> I
> don't worry if one isn't PC for a Muslim nor anyone else. Principle is
> MUCH more
> important than my being here. I'm an American with a 1st amendment
> right, and a
> God given right of free speech, and I WON'T give either up!!

Hahaha! Priceless! Did you really just say it's ok to denigrate someone
else's religious beliefs because your religious beliefs tell you so?

My atheist heart is amused beyond my capacity to express.

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Re: From offtopic list.

Tony Alfrey
In reply to this post by Tony Alfrey
Tony Alfrey wrote:

> Fred A. Miller wrote:
>> On 03/10/2010 08:33 PM, Tony Alfrey wrote:
>>> Fred A. Miller wrote:
>>>> On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
>>>>> Hi Fred,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as
>>>>>> per
>>>>>> many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
>>>>> You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not
>>>>> entitled to
>>>>> voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see
>>>>> this
>>>>> signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a
>>>>> very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
>>>> First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to
>>>> know
>>>> what's
>>>> going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my
>>>> choice
>>>> but yours.
>>> I've seen a variety of your (Mr. Miller's) signatures that I've found
>>> offensive (some remarks about 'liberals'; I'm one of those "evil"
>>> people) but I've said nothing because I'm not a major participant on
>>> this list. But the list is not a political forum, it is simply a
>>> discussion about software. So adding content that is bound to be
>>> controversial is simply counterproductive to the objective (or what I
>>> thought was the objective) of the list. There are many other forums
>>> where you can freely express your opinions about religion.
>>> An argument about kde 3.5 or 4.x seems appropriate. Signatures that
>>> amount to hand grenades about inherently subjective topics seem
>>> inappropriate for this particular list.
>>> My 2 cents (or euro-cents, whatever they call them).
>>
>>
>> Tony, a lot of people use sigs......some I like and some I don't. I
>> don't complain about any of them....it's a FREE SPEECH issue....PERIOD.


Here, let me try this approach.  Consider my signature below (a
modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again)
and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a
discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of
promoting "free speech".


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Re: From offtopic list.

Fred A. Miller
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On 03/10/2010 09:27 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

> Fred A. Miller wrote:
>> I
>> don't worry if one isn't PC for a Muslim nor anyone else. Principle is
>> MUCH more
>> important than my being here. I'm an American with a 1st amendment
>> right, and a
>> God given right of free speech, and I WON'T give either up!!
>
> Hahaha! Priceless! Did you really just say it's ok to denigrate
> someone else's religious beliefs because your religious beliefs tell
> you so?
>
> My atheist heart is amused beyond my capacity to express.
>

NO, that's not what I said. This is a free speech issue. Muslims are the
ONLY religious group to DEMAND that no one says anything about Islam
that they don't like.

Fred

--
“The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of
civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an
unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.”
--Sir William Muir

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Re: From offtopic list.

Allen Benter
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 22:20 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:

> NO, that's not what I said. This is a free speech issue. Muslims are the
> ONLY religious group to DEMAND that no one says anything about Islam
> that they don't like.

Sorry, but there are quite a few christians, jews, ... pick ANY
religion ... that are more than happy to tell people that they are not
allowed to say things about their chosen fantasy that they don't like.

I agree with the other 'moderates' on this list - that this issue has
absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion of free software, openSUSE,
KDE, GNOME etc and should not only be removed from this list, but should
not even make it on to the OT list in the first place.

If you really have a gripe with some religion, I am sure there are many
other places more appropriate to vent.

Allen



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Re: From offtopic list.

kanenas
In reply to this post by Fred A. Miller
 
> > On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
 
> “The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of
> civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an
> unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.”
> --Sir William Muir

To show how easily one turns a sig into content, I clipped all but the sig....

That a stupidity like that has the right to appear on my screen, is something
that interferes with *my*  rights:
*I* subscribe to opensuse for......OPEN SUSE SHTUFF, what part of that is
beyond the intellectual capacity of posters like Mr. Miller?

If *I* wanted to discuss muslims and jews and christians, i would go to an
appropriate forum.

In my opinion the solution is very simple: Mr. Miller SHOULD NOT be banned
from the suse lists.

 HOWEVER, the "sig" can only be an *actual* sig.  A simple name, no more than
a couple dozen characters actually mentioning a legal  first and a last name.

Then, if Mr. Miller clings to his God Given right to free speech, he is fully
entitled to do so within the content of the post.
..................................................

btw Fred,  I personnally am a Greek Orthodox Christian.  In my culture and in
*every other* Eastern Christian  culture, there has been a saying for a few
hundreds of years:
 
"It is better to suffer under the sword of "Muhammad" then live thru the
blessing of the pope."  That was first said *BEFORE* the fall of
Constantinoupoli in 1453 ad and has remained true until very recently.

that saying, that belief is what the crusades accomplished  "in the name of
the Lord." read some objective history if you must.

And it was only about a year or so that the pope actually *officislly*
denounced the crusades and *asked forgiveness* from the Patriarch in
Constantinoupoli (Istambloul = Is tin poli = to THE city for the not knowing)

The above was only added in in order to show that there are other view points.

and, to further make the last point:

GO RON PAUL!!!!

down with the fed!
down with the bailouts!
down with the wars!

respectfully,

Dimitris,

without a stoopid sig:)



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Re: From offtopic list.

Per Jessen-2
In reply to this post by Tony Alfrey
Tony Alfrey wrote:

> Then since you don't "get it", I'm sure you won't mind if I filter
> your posts,

That is exactly the right way to deal with it.  Use your killfile,
people.  


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Re: From offtopic list.

Peter Nikolic
In reply to this post by Tony Alfrey
On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
> Tony Alfrey wrote:

>
> Here, let me try this approach.  Consider my signature below (a
> modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again)
> and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a
> discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of
> promoting "free speech".

This is now getting silly ..

This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby  and it
is about time it all went back to sleep and life was gotten on with instead of
getting personal  snotty and generally bad assed , So the whole darn lot of ya
will ya please let it drop the Mushy is noted by his absense  after stirring
up the brown and smelly so C T F O     (chill the f*** out)

Pete .

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Re: From offtopic list.

kanenas
In reply to this post by kanenas
 
one final comment re free speech and internet forums.

in the proctology forum, anyone is free to say anything pertaining to
proctology.
no gay rights, no muslim funamentalists, no higher than thou christians.
even in the "sig".
in the easter bunny forum, anyone is free to say anything about the easter
bunny.
no gay rights, no muslim funamentalists, no higher than thou christians.
even in the "sig".

and so on.

that much is owed to the members of each forum.

one's "rights" may *not* trample on the rights of others.

since "sigs" seem to be the wmd of choice against the fundamentals of
individual forums, it is rather elementary that "sigs" should be eliminated
in affected forums.

i sincerely  hope the forum masters close this "loophole".

dimitris
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Re: From offtopic list.

Tony Alfrey
In reply to this post by Peter Nikolic
Peter Nikolic wrote:

> On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
>> Tony Alfrey wrote:
>
>> Here, let me try this approach.  Consider my signature below (a
>> modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me again)
>> and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a
>> discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of
>> promoting "free speech".
>
> This is now getting silly ..
>
> This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby


<snip>

Please let us know what your particular philosophical or religious
beliefs are so that we may defame them and then see how "gobby" you
become.  The whole thing *has* gotten a little silly, but the solution
is to remove religious and philosophical commentary from the list.  Just
like we've (for the most part) agreed not to top post, not to break
threads, not to post in html.  It is simply an issue of decorum.

What if I were to start some rant about how linux sucks and Windows 7
eats SuSE lunch?  The list would be on my case in two clock cycles about
trolling and spreading FUD.  So how is the inclusion of religious
commentary any less FUD?


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Re: From offtopic list.

Fred A. Miller
On 03/11/2010 04:06 AM, Tony Alfrey wrote:

> Peter Nikolic wrote:
>> On Thursday 11 Mar 2010 02:41:58 Tony Alfrey wrote:
>>> Tony Alfrey wrote:
>>
>>> Here, let me try this approach. Consider my signature below (a
>>> modification of my usual sig which no one will *ever* see from me
>>> again)
>>> and tell me if you think that this signature is productive to a
>>> discussion about openSuSE and a fitting example of your goals of
>>> promoting "free speech".
>>
>> This is now getting silly ..
>> This all flared up because some stupid darn mushy "Muslim" got gobby
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Please let us know what your particular philosophical or religious
> beliefs are so that we may defame them and then see how "gobby" you
> become. The whole thing *has* gotten a little silly, but the solution
> is to remove religious and philosophical commentary from the list.
> Just like we've (for the most part) agreed not to top post, not to
> break threads, not to post in html. It is simply an issue of decorum.
>
> What if I were to start some rant about how linux sucks and Windows 7
> eats SuSE lunch? The list would be on my case in two clock cycles
> about trolling and spreading FUD. So how is the inclusion of religious
> commentary any less FUD?
>

First, it WASN'T and ISN'T "religious commentary," except for the
complaint! It was a sig....period.

You sig..............
--
Tony Alfrey
[hidden email]
"I'd Rather Be Sailing"

Ah......now here's just as ignorant a complaint as the one filed on me.
I could complain because you're promoting sailing, which can harm
mammals, fish, etc. Of course it's extreme and absurd, but so was what
started this whole thing in the first place.....free speech NOT applying
to anyone who says anything a Muslim doesn't like.

Fred

--
“The sword of Muhammad and the Qur'an are the most fatal enemies of
civilization, liberty and truth which the world has ever known - an
unmitigated cultural disaster parading as God's will.”
--Sir William Muir

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Re: From offtopic list.

Tony Alfrey
Fred A. Miller wrote:

<snip>
>>
>
> First, it WASN'T and ISN'T "religious commentary," except for the
> complaint! It was a sig....period.

It was (and is) an insult... period.


--
Tony Alfrey
[hidden email]
"I'd Rather Be Sailing"
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Re: From offtopic list.

Roger Oberholtzer
In reply to this post by Fred A. Miller
On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 19:59 -0500, Fred A. Miller wrote:

> There are MANY here who don't agree with you. Part of the MAJOR
> problems presently being experienced in Europe is that there's been a
> great deal
> of PC towards Muslims, and now look at the problems!!!! It is a pagan
> religion of
> HATE, lies, and deceit. I can not give into any Muslim whining. The
> truth is the truth
> and I WON'T hold back at any time anywhere.....period!! So, I guess you
> might as well
> take me off all openSUSE elists. I use various sigs as I rotate them
> from time to time. I
> don't worry if one isn't PC for a Muslim nor anyone else. Principle is
> MUCH more
> important than my being here. I'm an American with a 1st amendment
> right, and a
> God given right of free speech, and I WON'T give either up!!

I should know better than to do this, but there is something in the air
today...


I saw Henry Rollins the other day. I fully agree with his take on this
view:

Americans (and others - it is not an America-only thing) have a right to
free speech. No issue - it should be that way everywhere. But, with any
great right comes a great responsibility. Having a right does not mean
you should abuse it. Expressing an opinion just because you can does not
mean that you are obliged to do so. Especially when it serves no
productive purpose.

I take freedom of speech to also mean that one is free NOT to say
something. That is, one is not required to parrot the party line. Some
of the folk under fire are, perhaps, not so lucky. It somehow seems
shallow for a person with a freedom to complain against those who do not
have that freedom (often a social and not a political restriction - but
a restriction none the less). It does not make me a sympathizer with
their arguments. I just choose to see them in that light and take no
action on them.

I won't touch on the Muslim issue. I have strong opinions as well. Many
are surely not PC.

And, Frank, where exactly is God's signature on the Bill of Rights? I
suggest you meant to state that you have a U. S. Constitution given
right to free speech. If the Constitution took it away, God will not be
able to help you.

> It just seems really ignorant, Henne, that you have responded this way
> to me because
> of someone who's NOT been on this list till now, who more than likely -
> IF we
> knew the truth and I know we won't - isn't who he/she claims to be and
> has a REAL name
> he/she's not giving. Further, what about the anti-Christian snide
> remarks that have been
> on more than one list off and on for a LONG time?

No excuse for it, I am sure. But as a Christian, you were delivered with
another cheek. Is it not in working order?

--
Roger Oberholtzer

OPQ Systems / Ramböll RST

Ramböll Sverige AB
Krukmakargatan 21
P.O. Box 17009
SE-104 62 Stockholm, Sweden

Office: Int +46 10-615 60 20
Mobile: Int +46 70-815 1696

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Re: From offtopic list.

Adam Tauno Williams
In reply to this post by Allen Benter
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 14:43 +1100, Allen Benter wrote:
> I agree with the other 'moderates' on this list - that this issue has
> absolutely NOTHING to do with the discussion of free software, openSUSE,
> KDE, GNOME etc and should not only be removed from this list, but should
> not even make it on to the OT list in the first place.

+1.

> If you really have a gripe with some religion, I am sure there are many
> other places more appropriate to vent.

+1

Go somewhere else;  the "freedom of speech" gripe doesn't apply, because
you don't have the right to flood forums with unrelated bilge - which is
your preventing speech, BTW.

Go away.

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Re: From offtopic list.

Henne Vogelsang-2
In reply to this post by Fred A. Miller
Hi,

On 03/11/2010 01:59 AM, Fred A. Miller wrote:

> On 03/10/2010 07:34 AM, Henne Vogelsang wrote:
>> On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 19:04 -0600, Fred A. Miller wrote:
>>  
>>> Well, I didn't write it. Sorry you're offended, but I'm not, and as per
>>> many others who have varying opinions, we are all entitled to them.
>>>    
>> You are if course entitled to have this opinion. You are not entitled to
>> voice this opinion on an opensuse list. Please, I don't want to see this
>> signature ever again on our lists. I find it just too offensive for a
>> very sensitive topic. Thanks in advance.
>
> First off, Henne, I'm taking this public because I want everyone to know
> what's going on and why I probably won't be on the lists any longer....NOT my
> choice but yours.

Yes. One choice that you just strongly affirmed. I will not tolerate
this kind of remarks from you or anyone else on these lists. The
openSUSE community is based on mutual respect for each others' views.

I have unsubscribed you from all lists. Please go and do not come back.

Henne

--
Henne Vogelsang, openSUSE.
Everybody has a plan, until they get hit.
        - Mike Tyson
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