File delete permissions.

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File delete permissions.

Carlos E. R.-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1



Hi,

I'm user 'cer'. To avoid deleting by mistake some files, I changed their ownership to another user:

cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p*mpeg
- -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p.mpeg
- -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p2.mpeg
- -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
- -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p4.mpeg
cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> rm p.mpeg
rm: remove write-protected regular empty file 'p.mpeg'? n
cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>


See? 'rm' doubts and asks.
However, 'mc' doesn't ask and goes ahead, it happily deletes a file that
is not mine.

I thought that the 'w' permission was needed to delete a file, but no.
Is there some way I can negate user "cer" permission to delete a file?
No, not sticky, it doesn't work.

- --
Cheers

  Carlos E. R.
  (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)
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Re: File delete permissions.

Per Jessen
Carlos E. R. wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm user 'cer'. To avoid deleting by mistake some files, I changed
> their ownership to another user:
>
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p*mpeg
> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p.mpeg
> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p2.mpeg
> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p4.mpeg
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> rm p.mpeg
> rm: remove write-protected regular empty file 'p.mpeg'? n
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
>
>
> See? 'rm' doubts and asks.
> However, 'mc' doesn't ask and goes ahead, it happily deletes a file
> that is not mine.

I guess you own the directory.



--
Per Jessen, Zürich (21.3°C)
http://www.dns24.ch/ - your free DNS host, made in Switzerland.


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Re: File delete permissions.

Ken Schneider - Factory
On 06/08/2017 02:45 PM, Per Jessen wrote:

> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm user 'cer'. To avoid deleting by mistake some files, I changed
>> their ownership to another user:
>>
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p*mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p.mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p2.mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p4.mpeg
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> rm p.mpeg
>> rm: remove write-protected regular empty file 'p.mpeg'? n
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
>>
>>
>> See? 'rm' doubts and asks.
>> However, 'mc' doesn't ask and goes ahead, it happily deletes a file
>> that is not mine.
>
> I guess you own the directory.
>

I agree with Per, if you own the directory and have write perms to it
you can delete any file there.

--
Ken Schneider
SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998

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Re: File delete permissions.

Bernhard Voelker
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 06/08/2017 07:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> I'm user 'cer'. To avoid deleting by mistake some files, I changed their ownership to another user:
>
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p*mpeg -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p.mpeg
> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p2.mpeg -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g
> root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p4.mpeg cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> rm p.mpeg rm: remove
> write-protected regular empty file 'p.mpeg'? n cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
>
>
> See? 'rm' doubts and asks. However, 'mc' doesn't ask and goes ahead, it happily deletes a file that is not mine.
>
> I thought that the 'w' permission was needed to delete a file, but no. Is there some way I can negate user "cer"
> permission to delete a file? No, not sticky, it doesn't work.

You could change the directory permissions to 1777 (as '/tmp'),
so only the owner of a file may delete it (or root, of course).

The question is, how - i.e., by whom - files are added.
If you add all files with uid:guid = 'cer-g:root', and the
containing directory is also owned by that user and has the
permisssions 0755, then user "cer" won't be able to remove
the files either.  Then no special bits are neccessary.

Have a nice day,
Berny


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Re: File delete permissions.

L A Walsh
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
Carlos E. R. wrote:
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p*mpeg
> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p.mpeg
> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p4.mpeg
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> rm p.mpeg
> rm: remove write-protected regular empty file 'p.mpeg'? n
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
---
    What is 'l'?

> See? 'rm' doubts and asks.
> However, 'mc' doesn't ask and goes ahead, it happily deletes a file
> that is not mine.
---
Indeed:
>  mc
-bash: mc: command not found

What is 'mc'?  (midnight commander?  FWIW -- I don't have it installed,
as I found it too easily deleted files -- i.e. tried starting it, and
then quiting, but something I typed to 'quit' deleted files.  Ug.
unfriendly!)

That 'rm' asks, some (I don't mind it, easy to work around w/"-f")
might consider "un-unix".  Just like 'rm' used to be a depth-first tool,
always processing children before parents, so "rm -fr --one-filesystem ."
would safely delete all contents of a dir, but leave the dir (and
leave other files systems alone).  Now, it is incapable of doing that
w/o fixes, patches.


> I thought that the 'w' permission was needed to delete a file, but no.
> Is there some way I can negate user "cer" permission to delete a file?
> No, not sticky, it doesn't work.
---
    'w' applies to the content of the object it is set on, allowing
write to _that_ object.  "Filenames" are 'content" inside a directory
(filenames that point to their own content -- the content of the file).


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Re: File delete permissions.

John Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
On 06/08/2017 10:58 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Is there some way I can negate user "cer" permission to delete a file?
> No, not sticky, it doesn't work.

man chattr

--
After all is said and done, more is said than done.


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Re: File delete permissions.

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by L A Walsh
L A Walsh composed on 2017-06-08 16:10 (UTC-0700):

> What is 'mc'?  (midnight commander?  FWIW -- I don't have it installed,
> as I found it too easily deleted files -- i.e. tried starting it, and
> then quiting, but something I typed to 'quit' deleted files.  Ug.
> unfriendly!)
.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager#Orthodox_file_managers

Without mc, or an equivalent OFM, my migration from OS/2 to Linux would have
been delayed many years or more. It's never to my recollection deleted anything
I didn't direct it to delete. Not having any OFM, typical of rescue
environments, is a huge usability handicap to me. It's the first app I check for
in an alien OS environment. Absence of native OFM was one big reason why when
Win95 was new that I never gave it a serious look.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: File delete permissions.

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Per Jessen
On 2017-06-08 20:45, Per Jessen wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:

>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm user 'cer'. To avoid deleting by mistake some files, I changed
>> their ownership to another user:
>>
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p*mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p.mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p2.mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p4.mpeg
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> rm p.mpeg
>> rm: remove write-protected regular empty file 'p.mpeg'? n
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
>>
>>
>> See? 'rm' doubts and asks.
>> However, 'mc' doesn't ask and goes ahead, it happily deletes a file
>> that is not mine.
>
> I guess you own the directory.
Yes. Is that the reason?


--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: File delete permissions.

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Bernhard Voelker
On 2017-06-09 00:32, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
> On 06/08/2017 07:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:


> You could change the directory permissions to 1777 (as '/tmp'),
> so only the owner of a file may delete it (or root, of course).

Sticky bit to the directory?


> The question is, how - i.e., by whom - files are added.
> If you add all files with uid:guid = 'cer-g:root', and the
> containing directory is also owned by that user and has the
> permisssions 0755, then user "cer" won't be able to remove
> the files either.  Then no special bits are neccessary.


No, user "cer" owns the directory and creates the files. Later on, I
manually change (chown) finished files to "cer-g" with the idea that
they are not altered by accident.

So, now the directory is sticky, owned by cer, and still 'mc' deletes
files owned by cer-g without question.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: File delete permissions.

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by L A Walsh
On 2017-06-09 01:10, L A Walsh wrote:
> Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p*mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p.mpeg
>> - -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p4.mpeg
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> rm p.mpeg
>> rm: remove write-protected regular empty file 'p.mpeg'? n
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
> ---
>    What is 'l'?

alias l='ls -alF'

I did not create that, SuSE did.

>
>> See? 'rm' doubts and asks.
>> However, 'mc' doesn't ask and goes ahead, it happily deletes a file
>> that is not mine.
> ---
> Indeed:
>>  mc
> -bash: mc: command not found
>
> What is 'mc'?  (midnight commander?
Yes.

Other file browser might do the same thing, I haven't tested.


>> I thought that the 'w' permission was needed to delete a file, but no.
>> Is there some way I can negate user "cer" permission to delete a file?
>> No, not sticky, it doesn't work.
> ---
>    'w' applies to the content of the object it is set on, allowing
> write to _that_ object.  "Filenames" are 'content" inside a directory
> (filenames that point to their own content -- the content of the file).

So, I would have to change the permissions of the directory. I can't do
that. :-(

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: File delete permissions.

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by John Andersen-2
On 2017-06-09 01:22, John Andersen wrote:
> On 06/08/2017 10:58 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> Is there some way I can negate user "cer" permission to delete a file?
>> No, not sticky, it doesn't work.
>
> man chattr

What do I have to look in there? I have read that manual, it doesn't
help if you don't say what specific think to look at.

Maybe you refer to this:

      A file with the 'i' attribute cannot be modified: it cannot be
deleted or renamed, no link can be created to this file and no data can
be  written  to  the file.  Only the superuser or a process possessing
the CAP_LINUX_IMMUTABLE capability can set or clear this attribute.


Well, this works, but needs root to set it.


--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: File delete permissions.

John Andersen-2
On 06/08/2017 06:16 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Well, this works, but needs root to set it.

Or sudo needs to do it.
But it is, as you stated, something you don't do all the time
and you want to protect yourself from mistakes. so its just as easy
and chown and a lot more fool-proof.


--
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Re: File delete permissions.

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2017-06-09 03:30, John Andersen wrote:
> On 06/08/2017 06:16 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>> Well, this works, but needs root to set it.
>
> Or sudo needs to do it.
> But it is, as you stated, something you don't do all the time
> and you want to protect yourself from mistakes. so its just as easy
> and chown and a lot more fool-proof.

It is indeed. But there are no hints in "ls -l" output that there are
other attributes in place:

cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p3.mpeg
-rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> lsattr p3.mpeg
----i----------- p3.mpeg
cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>


I thought there was to be a '+' symbol :-?
Maybe it is for... duh, I forgot the name.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: File delete permissions.

John Andersen-2
On June 8, 2017 6:42:09 PM PDT, "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]> wrote:

>On 2017-06-09 03:30, John Andersen wrote:
>> On 06/08/2017 06:16 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>> Well, this works, but needs root to set it.
>>
>> Or sudo needs to do it.
>> But it is, as you stated, something you don't do all the time
>> and you want to protect yourself from mistakes. so its just as easy
>> and chown and a lot more fool-proof.
>
>It is indeed. But there are no hints in "ls -l" output that there are
>other attributes in place:
>
>cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p3.mpeg
>-rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
>cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> lsattr
>p3.mpeg
>----i----------- p3.mpeg
>cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
>
>
>I thought there was to be a '+' symbol :-?
>Maybe it is for... duh, I forgot the name.


 man lsattr  ;-)



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Re: File delete permissions.

Carlos E. R.-2
On 2017-06-09 03:53, John Andersen wrote:

> On June 8, 2017 6:42:09 PM PDT, "Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 2017-06-09 03:30, John Andersen wrote:
>>> On 06/08/2017 06:16 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>>> Well, this works, but needs root to set it.
>>>
>>> Or sudo needs to do it.
>>> But it is, as you stated, something you don't do all the time
>>> and you want to protect yourself from mistakes. so its just as easy
>>> and chown and a lot more fool-proof.
>>
>> It is indeed. But there are no hints in "ls -l" output that there are
>> other attributes in place:
>>
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p3.mpeg
>> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> lsattr
>> p3.mpeg
>> ----i----------- p3.mpeg
>> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
>>
>>
>> I thought there was to be a '+' symbol :-?
>> Maybe it is for... duh, I forgot the name.
>
>
>  man lsattr  ;-)
You can see that I used lsattr above. What I say is that ls doesn't
inform that there are other attributes that it doesn't display.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: File delete permissions.

Andrei Borzenkov
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
08.06.2017 20:58, Carlos E. R. пишет:

>
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm user 'cer'. To avoid deleting by mistake some files, I changed their
> ownership to another user:
>
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p*mpeg
> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p.mpeg
> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p2.mpeg
> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
> -rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p4.mpeg
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> rm p.mpeg
> rm: remove write-protected regular empty file 'p.mpeg'? n
> cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
>
>
> See? 'rm' doubts and asks.
> However, 'mc' doesn't ask and goes ahead, it happily deletes a file that
> is not mine.
>
> I thought that the 'w' permission was needed to delete a file, but no.
> Is there some way I can negate user "cer" permission to delete a file?
> No, not sticky, it doesn't work.
>
You are asking wrong question. There is no file property that would
magically cause *every program that tries to delete file* to ask you
for confirmation. This is behavior of each individual program. Either mc
can be configured to ask it or not.

You certainly can "negate permission to delete a file" as you were
already advised but then you will not able to delete file and you do not
like it either nor is it what you want.


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Re: File delete permissions.

Bernhard Voelker
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
On 06/09/2017 03:02 AM, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2017-06-09 00:32, Bernhard Voelker wrote:
>> On 06/08/2017 07:58 PM, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>
>
>> You could change the directory permissions to 1777 (as '/tmp'),
>> so only the owner of a file may delete it (or root, of course).
>
> Sticky bit to the directory?
>
>
>> The question is, how - i.e., by whom - files are added.
>> If you add all files with uid:guid = 'cer-g:root', and the
>> containing directory is also owned by that user and has the
>> permisssions 0755, then user "cer" won't be able to remove
>> the files either.  Then no special bits are neccessary.
>
>
> No, user "cer" owns the directory and creates the files. Later on, I
> manually change (chown) finished files to "cer-g" with the idea that
> they are not altered by accident.
>
> So, now the directory is sticky, owned by cer, and still 'mc' deletes
> files owned by cer-g without question.

If you manually chown the file later, you need to do this as root anyway.
So you could just chown the directory to root.  After that, the 1777 permission
on the directory would prevent the user 'cer' from removing files owned by
'cer-g'.

This is exactly like /tmp: just try to remove a file owned by someone else
(and with a non-root user, of course).

Have a nice day,
Berny

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Re: File delete permissions.

L A Walsh
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
Carlos E. R. wrote:
>>    'w' applies to the content of the object it is set on, allowing
>> write to _that_ object.  "Filenames" are 'content" inside a directory
>> (filenames that point to their own content -- the content of the file).
>>    
>
> So, I would have to change the permissions of the directory. I can't do
> that. :-(
>  
====
    Why is that? (shared?): you might be able to access lists to
accomplish similar, or if you have "root", you could set the immutable
bit on
the file (which won't allow you to change the file until you clear the
immutable bit w/root).



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Re: File delete permissions.

David Haller-4
In reply to this post by L A Walsh
Hello,

On Thu, 08 Jun 2017, L A Walsh wrote:
>What is 'mc'?  (midnight commander?  FWIW -- I don't have it installed,
>as I found it too easily deleted files -- i.e. tried starting it, and
>then quiting, but something I typed to 'quit' deleted files.  Ug.
>unfriendly!)

You must've pressed F8 (delete) instead of F10 (quit).

And mc has a "safe delete" option:
    Options -> Configuration... -> [x] Safe delete

HTH,
-dnh

--
panic("aha1740.c"); /* Goodbye */
        linux-2.2.16/drivers/scsi/aha1740.c

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Re: File delete permissions.

David Haller-4
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
Hello,

On Fri, 09 Jun 2017, Carlos E. R. wrote:
>cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> l p3.mpeg
>-rw-r--r-- 1 cer-g root 0 Jun  8 19:50 p3.mpeg
>cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1> lsattr p3.mpeg
>cer@Isengard:~/Fusion/Videos/Crossing Jordan/Temporada 1>
>
>I thought there was to be a '+' symbol :-?
>Maybe it is for... duh, I forgot the name.

ACLs. man getfacl / man setfacl

HTH,
-dnh

--
> which camera is this?         -- Marcus Meissner
Marcus, this is my bug :)       -- Stephan Kulow in
    https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=217731

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