Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

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Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Fuminobu TAKEYAMA
Hi all,

I want to ask this question before the release openSUSE 13.2.

Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

I think, for KDE, it is better to install libreoffice-gnome
instead of libreoffice-kde4.

How do you think?


libreoffice-kde4 is a Qt implementation of LibreOffice UI framework.
However, the following problems are known.

1. Look and feel: no shadow under menus
Since oxygen-gtk provides good KDE integration for GTK applications,
libreoffice-gnome looks better than libreoffice-kde.

Moreover, last week, I received another broken UI layout bug
in opensuse-ja ML. The font selection list box on the Style dialog
moves over the next font size list box.


2. Poor input method support (XIM only)
Thereby, the launch scripts of IBus contains:
  exports OOO_FORCE_DESKTOP=gnome
to enforce libreoffice-gnome on KDE environment.

To do that, the IBus package have a weird supplements tag:
  Supplements:    packageand(libreoffice:libreoffice-gnome)

On the other hand, libreoffice-gnome supports input method via GTK,
Chinese and Japanese users can input texts smoothly.


3. The development of libreoffice-kde4 seems to be less active
than libreoffice-gnome.


Although libreoffice-kde4 still provides KDE-style file dialogs,
do we still need to maintain troublesome libreoffice-kde4 for them?

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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

todd rme
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Although libreoffice-kde4 still provides KDE-style file dialogs,
> do we still need to maintain troublesome libreoffice-kde4 for them?

KDE file dialogs is a huge deal for me.  I wouldn't care if you cut
out all the theming stuff, but losing the file dialogs would be a
major problem.
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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Bruno Friedmann-2
On Tuesday 16 September 2014 15.03:29 Todd Rme wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Although libreoffice-kde4 still provides KDE-style file dialogs,
> > do we still need to maintain troublesome libreoffice-kde4 for them?
>
> KDE file dialogs is a huge deal for me.  I wouldn't care if you cut
> out all the theming stuff, but losing the file dialogs would be a
> major problem.
>

Same here.

At Akademy few day ago, the qt part of libreoffice gain new contributors, and new coding, fixes etc are on their way.
Perhaps the right time to ping back this group, and work together.


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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Fuminobu TAKEYAMA
Thanks for your comments.

What is the problem with file dialogs used in libreoffice-gnome?
I want to know how serious it is and it can be fixed.


 > At Akademy few day ago, the qt part of libreoffice gain new contributors,
 > and new coding, fixes etc are on their way.
 > Perhaps the right time to ping back this group, and work together.

That's good news.
Where can I find more information about that?

However, I know LibreOffice needs more and more contribution to
fix bugs and implement attractive features. It is not good idea to take
efforts to maintain multiple implementations of LibreOffice for Linux desktops.
Of course, if the new contributors want, that's enough reason to do.

# it will take a long time to catch up with -gnome, though.


BTW, we don't need to drop the package of libreoffice-kde4.
If you want, you can install it.

On 2014/09/17 16:14, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

> On Tuesday 16 September 2014 15.03:29 Todd Rme wrote:
>> On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 2:54 PM, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Although libreoffice-kde4 still provides KDE-style file dialogs,
>>> do we still need to maintain troublesome libreoffice-kde4 for them?
>>
>> KDE file dialogs is a huge deal for me.  I wouldn't care if you cut
>> out all the theming stuff, but losing the file dialogs would be a
>> major problem.
>>
>
> Same here.
>
> At Akademy few day ago, the qt part of libreoffice gain new contributors, and new coding, fixes etc are on their way.
> Perhaps the right time to ping back this group, and work together.
>

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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Sean
On 17/09/14 23:23, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA wrote:
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> What is the problem with file dialogs used in libreoffice-gnome?
> I want to know how serious it is and it can be fixed.
>

GNOME's file picker is very different from KDE's, many do not like
GNOME's style much.

Firefox has been patched pretty heavily to get KDE's choosers instead of
GNOME's so there is a user-base for it.

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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

todd rme
In reply to this post by Fuminobu TAKEYAMA
On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thanks for your comments.
>
> What is the problem with file dialogs used in libreoffice-gnome?
> I want to know how serious it is and it can be fixed.

I personally have three major problems with gnome's dialogs:

1. They are not native dialogs.  They look different, behave
different, etc.  Theming can't change this, they just operate in a
fundamentally different manner.  Muscle memory helps a lot when
navigating interfaces, and using a completely different dialog box
layout breaks that.

2. They lack some features, such as breadcrumb navigation, text-based
extension input, and autocomplete.  Other features, like copying and
pasting paths, is more difficult in Gnome's dialog.

3. They also lack integration with KDE's places.  They use their own
list of places, which is independent of KDE's.  As someone who uses
places extensively to organize my commonly-used files, this is a major
problem.  I have to manage two different lists of places.
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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Bruno Friedmann-2
On Wednesday 17 September 2014 17.49:01 Todd Rme wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Thanks for your comments.
> >
> > What is the problem with file dialogs used in libreoffice-gnome?
> > I want to know how serious it is and it can be fixed.
>
> I personally have three major problems with gnome's dialogs:
>
> 1. They are not native dialogs.  They look different, behave
> different, etc.  Theming can't change this, they just operate in a
> fundamentally different manner.  Muscle memory helps a lot when
> navigating interfaces, and using a completely different dialog box
> layout breaks that.
>
> 2. They lack some features, such as breadcrumb navigation, text-based
> extension input, and autocomplete.  Other features, like copying and
> pasting paths, is more difficult in Gnome's dialog.
>
> 3. They also lack integration with KDE's places.  They use their own
> list of places, which is independent of KDE's.  As someone who uses
> places extensively to organize my commonly-used files, this is a major
> problem.  I have to manage two different lists of places.
>

+100
You loose 25 to 33% of productivity, and same apply to gimp or inkscape :-)


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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Fuminobu TAKEYAMA
I have never minded that.
Maybe this is because I usually do not use file dialogs to
open and save documents on LibreOffice. And I daily use some Gtk
applications.

Is there any good idea to maintain libreoffice-kde4?
Coding? Note that the -kde4 implementation is 20000 lines of code behind
-gtk.


Fuminobu TAKEYAMA

On 2014年09月18日 02:59, Bruno Friedmann wrote:

> On Wednesday 17 September 2014 17.49:01 Todd Rme wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 5:23 PM, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Thanks for your comments.
>>>
>>> What is the problem with file dialogs used in libreoffice-gnome?
>>> I want to know how serious it is and it can be fixed.
>>
>> I personally have three major problems with gnome's dialogs:
>>
>> 1. They are not native dialogs.  They look different, behave
>> different, etc.  Theming can't change this, they just operate in a
>> fundamentally different manner.  Muscle memory helps a lot when
>> navigating interfaces, and using a completely different dialog box
>> layout breaks that.
>>
>> 2. They lack some features, such as breadcrumb navigation, text-based
>> extension input, and autocomplete.  Other features, like copying and
>> pasting paths, is more difficult in Gnome's dialog.
>>
>> 3. They also lack integration with KDE's places.  They use their own
>> list of places, which is independent of KDE's.  As someone who uses
>> places extensively to organize my commonly-used files, this is a major
>> problem.  I have to manage two different lists of places.
>>
>
> +100
> You loose 25 to 33% of productivity, and same apply to gimp or inkscape :-)
>
>
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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

todd rme
On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I have never minded that.
> Maybe this is because I usually do not use file dialogs to
> open and save documents on LibreOffice. And I daily use some Gtk
> applications.

If you aren't interested in using the KDE4 package, that is fine,
don't install it.  But don't remove the option from the rest of us,
since it provides what at least two people consider to be critical
functionality.

> Is there any good idea to maintain libreoffice-kde4?
> Coding? Note that the -kde4 implementation is 20000 lines of code behind
> -gtk.

I think Bruno already addressed this.  It sounds like development is picking up.

And you can't really measure development in lines of code like that.


In terms of practical changes, one option would be to separate out the
file dialogs from the theming engine.  That would allow people who
really need IBUS support right now to still use the native dialogs.
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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Sean
On 18/09/2014 20:51, Todd Rme wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Fuminobu TAKEYAMA <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Is there any good idea to maintain libreoffice-kde4?
>> Coding? Note that the -kde4 implementation is 20000 lines of code behind
>> -gtk.
>
> I think Bruno already addressed this.  It sounds like development is picking up.
>

The intention is to make Libreoffice load GNOME by default instead of
KDE. You'd still be able to install the KDE package afterwards.

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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Luca Beltrame
Sean Watson wrote:


> The intention is to make Libreoffice load GNOME by default instead
of
> KDE. You'd still be able to install the KDE package afterwards.
>

If that's the case, then the -kde4 package should be picked up by
the KDE pattern. I really don't want our KDE workspace users to have
to do so manually.

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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Fuminobu TAKEYAMA
On 2014年09月18日 21:51, Todd Rme wrote:>
 > I think Bruno already addressed this.  It sounds like development
 > is picking up.

I'm waiting for concrete information from ML posts or commit logs.


 > In terms of practical changes, one option would be to separate out the
 > file dialogs from the theming engine.  That would allow people who
 > really need IBUS support right now to still use the native dialogs.

I understand the major concern of the KDE integration is file dialogs.
Allowing libreoffice-gnome to use file dialogs from the workspace
running on is a easier way to achieve, I think.

I found an application named KGtk. One of its purpose is using the KDE
file dialogs on libreoffice-gnome.
http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=36077

This application implies that there are some people who want use
libreoffice-gnome on KDE but they want sill use the KDE dialogs.


 > Sean Watson wrote:
 > I really don't want our KDE workspace users to have to do so manually.

There are also (more than three) KDE users who want more stable
LibreOffice and/or IM support but do not care about file dialogs.

I don't want them to manually install libreoffice-gnome and set
OOO_FORCE_DESKTOP or SAL_USE_VCL_PLUGIN.



On 2014年09月18日 22:10, Luca Beltrame wrote:

> Sean Watson wrote:
>
>
>> The intention is to make Libreoffice load GNOME by default instead
> of
>> KDE. You'd still be able to install the KDE package afterwards.
>>
>
> If that's the case, then the -kde4 package should be picked up by
> the KDE pattern. I really don't want our KDE workspace users to have
> to do so manually.
>
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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Bruno Friedmann-2
On Sunday 21 September 2014 15.41:48 Fuminobu TAKEYAMA wrote:
> On 2014年09月18日 21:51, Todd Rme wrote:>
>  > I think Bruno already addressed this.  It sounds like development
>  > is picking up.
>
> I'm waiting for concrete information from ML posts or commit logs.
Me too, or a serious alternative.

>
>  > In terms of practical changes, one option would be to separate out the
>  > file dialogs from the theming engine.  That would allow people who
>  > really need IBUS support right now to still use the native dialogs.
>
> I understand the major concern of the KDE integration is file dialogs.
> Allowing libreoffice-gnome to use file dialogs from the workspace
> running on is a easier way to achieve, I think.
>
> I found an application named KGtk. One of its purpose is using the KDE
> file dialogs on libreoffice-gnome.
> http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=36077
>
> This application implies that there are some people who want use
> libreoffice-gnome on KDE but they want sill use the KDE dialogs.
I've used it during years but after qt4.6 no way to compile it, and make it working.
futhermore, it was highly stable.


>
>  > Sean Watson wrote:
>  > I really don't want our KDE workspace users to have to do so manually.
>
> There are also (more than three) KDE users who want more stable
> LibreOffice and/or IM support but do not care about file dialogs.
>
> I don't want them to manually install libreoffice-gnome and set
> OOO_FORCE_DESKTOP or SAL_USE_VCL_PLUGIN.

I'm using them and still the integration is broken.

Look at attachement comparing loo (pseudo kde4 file open) and a native kwrite.

I've only loo-kde4 installed ...
loo is 4.3.1


>
> On 2014年09月18日 22:10, Luca Beltrame wrote:
> > Sean Watson wrote:
> >
> >
> >> The intention is to make Libreoffice load GNOME by default instead
> > of
> >> KDE. You'd still be able to install the KDE package afterwards.
> >>
> >
> > If that's the case, then the -kde4 package should be picked up by
> > the KDE pattern. I really don't want our KDE workspace users to have
> > to do so manually.
> >
>
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Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Fuminobu TAKEYAMA
> Look at attachement comparing loo (pseudo kde4 file open) and a native kwrite.
>
> I've only loo-kde4 installed ...
> loo is 4.3.1

I updated LibreOffice to 4.3.1 too.

The dialog is one from x11 vcl plugin not kde4.
# SAL_USE_VCLPLUGIN=gen libreoffice

KFileDialog is now seems to be disabled:
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/vcl/unx/kde4?id=65a3622148ea67744c9c1fc18c2b8d48e5f1c79f

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Re: Re: Do we really need libreoffice-kde4?

Luca Beltrame
Fuminobu TAKEYAMA wrote:

>
http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/vcl/unx/kde4?id=65a3622148ea67744c9c1fc18c2b8d48e5f1c79f

Strange. That patch mentioned in that bug should be in our Qt packages.

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