Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

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Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Ilya Chernykh

With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading.
Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Peter Czanik
On 10/26/2011 03:41 PM, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
> With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading.
> Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?
Well, my mobile internet access is faster, than my ADSL was a few years
ago, but it costs a fortune, if I cross traffic limits...
Bye,
CzP
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Stephan Kulow-3
In reply to this post by Ilya Chernykh
Am Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 schrieb Ilya Chernykh:
> With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the
> application of the diffs than on downloading. Maybe we should disable
> delta rpms by default?
Can you please give some numbers?

Greeings, Stephan
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

C-29
In reply to this post by Ilya Chernykh
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 15:41, Ilya Chernykh <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading.
> Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?

Modern internet speeds? By whose benchmark?  While some of us have
100Mbit or faster connections, that is certainly not the norm for the
vast majority of the planet.

C.
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Ilya Chernykh
In reply to this post by Stephan Kulow-3
On Wednesday 26 October 2011 17:48:13 Stephan Kulow wrote:

> > With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the
> > application of the diffs than on downloading. Maybe we should disable
> > delta rpms by default?
> Can you please give some numbers?

It is subjective but on my machine using normal rpms is much faster.
Also users ask how to disable delta rpms due the same reason:

http://tinyurl.com/5tsrb65


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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Ilya Chernykh
In reply to this post by C-29
On Wednesday 26 October 2011 17:52:33 C wrote:

> > With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading.
> > Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?
>
> Modern internet speeds? By whose benchmark?  While some of us have
> 100Mbit or faster connections, that is certainly not the norm for the
> vast majority of the planet.

Unless you are using dialup or GPRS, using normal rpms would be faster.

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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Wolfgang Rosenauer-4
In reply to this post by Ilya Chernykh
Am 26.10.2011 16:13, schrieb Ilya Chernykh:

> On Wednesday 26 October 2011 17:48:13 Stephan Kulow wrote:
>
>>> With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the
>>> application of the diffs than on downloading. Maybe we should disable
>>> delta rpms by default?
>> Can you please give some numbers?
>
> It is subjective but on my machine using normal rpms is much faster.
> Also users ask how to disable delta rpms due the same reason:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5tsrb65

I'm not sure about the default. But probably make it easier to change
the setting?


Wolfgang
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Claudio Freire
In reply to this post by Ilya Chernykh
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Ilya Chernykh <[hidden email]> wrote:
> With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading.
> Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?

What about server-side bandwidth?
Can servers handle the whole install base updating at (about) the same
time without delta-rpms?
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Lars Müller
In reply to this post by Ilya Chernykh
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 05:41:38PM +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
>
> With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading.
> Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?

-1 as there are still people with limited bandwith and/ or limited
download volume.

For those not liking the default it is easy to disable the use of delta
rpms.

Lars
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Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Stefan Seyfried
In reply to this post by Ilya Chernykh
On 26.10.2011 16:15, Ilya Chernykh wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 October 2011 17:52:33 C wrote:


>> Modern internet speeds? By whose benchmark?  While some of us have
>> 100Mbit or faster connections, that is certainly not the norm for the
>> vast majority of the planet.
>
> Unless you are using dialup or GPRS, using normal rpms would be faster.


Unless you are using a very slow machine, using delta rpms is faster.


Hint: without numbers, this is not productive.

I tried it with (artificially) slow network on a 144GB 24 core dual-ssd
server... deltarpm application even for large packages like
kernel-source is blazingly fast ;-)
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Stefan Seyfried
In reply to this post by Lars Müller
On 26.10.2011 16:28, Lars Müller wrote:

> -1 as there are still people with limited bandwith and/ or limited
> download volume.


agreed (side note: you are spending too much time in web forums or with
apache guys if you are using "+1" and "-1" :-)


> For those not liking the default it is easy to disable the use of delta
> rpms.


Disagreed, it is not easy to change. But this could be changed by
introducing a "zypper mr --{no,}deltarpms" command or similar.

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"Dispatch war rocket Ajax to bring back his body!"
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by Stefan Seyfried
On 2011/10/26 16:42 (GMT+0200) Stefan Seyfried composed:

> Ilya Ch_ernykh wrote:

>> C wrote:

>>>  Modern internet speeds? By whose benchmark?  While some of us have
>>>  100Mbit or faster connections, that is certainly not the norm for the
>>>  vast majority of the planet.

>>  Unless you are using dialup or GPRS, using normal rpms would be faster.

> Unless you are using a very slow machine, using delta rpms is faster.

> Hint: without numbers, this is not productive.

> I tried it with (artificially) slow network on a 144GB 24 core dual-ssd
> server... deltarpm application even for large packages like
> kernel-source is blazingly fast ;-)

_Apparent_ delta RPM slowness annoyed me for years until a couple of months
ago when I discovered the possibility to and how to disable them. I've
virtually always used commit.downloadMode = DownloadAsNeeded, not doing so
only in the period immediately after it became the default no longer.
Applying deltas, subjectively, seemed in most cases to take longer than
downloading a full RPM. None of my machines have more than one CPU or CPU
core. Most are 2.4GHz or slower. Few have more than 1G RAM.
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  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Ilya Chernykh
On Wednesday 26 October 2011 19:38:41 Felix Miata wrote:

> _Apparent_ delta RPM slowness annoyed me for years until a couple of months
> ago when I discovered the possibility to and how to disable them. I've
> virtually always used commit.downloadMode = DownloadAsNeeded, not doing so
> only in the period immediately after it became the default no longer.
> Applying deltas, subjectively, seemed in most cases to take longer than
> downloading a full RPM. None of my machines have more than one CPU or CPU
> core. Most are 2.4GHz or slower. Few have more than 1G RAM.

I have 2-core Core 2 Duo 3 GHz. Still deltas much slower.

I do not know whether there is software which can measure the speed.
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Ken Schneider - openSUSE
In reply to this post by Ilya Chernykh
On 10/26/2011 10:15 AM, Ilya Chernykh pecked at the keyboard and wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 October 2011 17:52:33 C wrote:
>
>>> With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading.
>>> Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?
>>
>> Modern internet speeds? By whose benchmark?  While some of us have
>> 100Mbit or faster connections, that is certainly not the norm for the
>> vast majority of the planet.
>
> Unless you are using dialup or GPRS, using normal rpms would be faster.
>

Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be quicker
using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).

Better to have it user selectable.

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Ken Schneider
SuSe since Version 5.2, June 1998
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Ilya Chernykh
  On Wednesday 26 October 2011 20:25:38 Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
 
 >
 > Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be quicker
 > using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).
 >
 > Better to have it user selectable.
 
 Currently I have 4 Mbit connection and 3 GHz 2-core CPU.
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Claudio Freire
In reply to this post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be quicker
> using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).

In my zone, slow internet is 1Mbit.
With luck.
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Vahis
In reply to this post by Ken Schneider - openSUSE
On 26.10.2011 19:25, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
>>
>
> Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be quicker
> using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).
>
> Better to have it user selectable.
>

I'm with user selection :)

I have 10 Mbps download speed.
I have an Asus EeePC with 1 GB RAM and (I think 300 MHz CPU)
I also have a Quad core machine with 8 GB RAM.

The former chokes on deltas.
The latter applies and installs deltas quite nicely, but for example
everything from Packman comes as rpm's and they go real quick.

YMMV

Vahis
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Malcolm-31
In reply to this post by Claudio Freire
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:38:23 -0300
Claudio Freire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Ken Schneider - openSUSE
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be
> > quicker using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).
>
> In my zone, slow internet is 1Mbit.
> With luck.
Hi
From my perspective from the forum posts in the past, we have had
queries from users based in the Africa's who still use dial-up, then as
an expat New Zealander, there are data caps to take into account,
nothing worse than missing the change and finding out your over your
data cap....

Me, I don't sit and watch the screen as things happen, I review the
updates, start them and go do something else....

I would vote to stay with the deltas :)

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openSUSE 11.4 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.37.6-0.7-desktop
up 2 days 3:44, 5 users, load average: 0.00, 0.06, 0.13
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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Lars Müller
In reply to this post by Vahis
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 08:52:54PM +0300, Vahis wrote:
> On 26.10.2011 19:25, Ken Schneider - openSUSE wrote:
> >
> >Regarding deltas, a slow (3Mbit) internet + fast cpu(s) will be quicker
> >using deltas then fast internet and slow cpu(s).
> >
> >Better to have it user selectable.
>
> I'm with user selection :)

Each additional question makes the installation harder for beginners.

It would be ok to make it possible to disable delta RPMs.  But please do
not add an additional question everyone has to answer.

Please also keep in mind how much total bandwith is saved due to the
delta mechanism.

Lars
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Lars Müller [ˈlaː(r)z ˈmʏlɐ]
Samba Team
SUSE Linux, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany

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Re: Do we really need delta rpms enabled by default?

Mike Galbraith-3
In reply to this post by Lars Müller
On Wed, 2011-10-26 at 16:28 +0200, Lars Müller wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 05:41:38PM +0400, Ilya Chernykh wrote:
> >
> > With modern internet connection speeds more time is spent on the application of the diffs than on downloading.
> > Maybe we should disable delta rpms by default?
>
> -1 as there are still people with limited bandwith and/ or limited
> download volume.

Yup.  I peek out at the world through a 400Kbit pin-hole right here in
Germany, less than 100km from the source.  Bicycle+usb-stick is a bigger
pipe to NBG for DVD size downloads :)

        -Mike

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