Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

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Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Tomas Chvatal
Hello all,

as per $SUBJ all the packages that were in tumbleweed are properly
migrated to python singlespec and removed from the repository.

As such within a month +- we will delete the repository and keep just
one devel:languages:python.

Please if you have something that is of interest just move it (and if
applicable migrate to singlespec) and make sure it is submitted against
Tumbleweed.

As a followup we will later try to reduce the failures and content in
devel:languages:python where plan is to keep it all in Tumbleweed and
maintained, while removing cruft that was just submitted to devel
project and never forwarded for openSUSE releases.

Cheers

Tom

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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Martin Pluskal-2
On Thu, 2017-10-12 at 15:32 +0200, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
> As a followup we will later try to reduce the failures and content in
> devel:languages:python where plan is to keep it all in Tumbleweed and
> maintained, while removing cruft that was just submitted to devel
> project and never forwarded for openSUSE releases.
Ah my precious cruft :( Now I have to submit it to Factory ...

M

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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Michael Aquilina
In reply to this post by Tomas Chvatal
I'm a bit late to this conversation but is the intention to completly
get rid of python 2? I work with Python as my main language and while
we work mostly with Python 3 there all still some occassions where we
need a working verison of python 2.

Mike

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Tomas Chvatal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> as per $SUBJ all the packages that were in tumbleweed are properly
> migrated to python singlespec and removed from the repository.
>
> As such within a month +- we will delete the repository and keep just
> one devel:languages:python.
>
> Please if you have something that is of interest just move it (and if
> applicable migrate to singlespec) and make sure it is submitted against
> Tumbleweed.
>
> As a followup we will later try to reduce the failures and content in
> devel:languages:python where plan is to keep it all in Tumbleweed and
> maintained, while removing cruft that was just submitted to devel
> project and never forwarded for openSUSE releases.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tom



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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Jan Engelhardt-4
In reply to this post by Martin Pluskal-2
On Thursday 2017-10-12 15:49, [hidden email] wrote:

>On Thu, 2017-10-12 at 15:32 +0200, Tomas Chvatal wrote:
>> As a followup we will later try to reduce the failures and content in
>> devel:languages:python where plan is to keep it all in Tumbleweed and
>> maintained, while removing cruft that was just submitted to devel
>> project and never forwarded for openSUSE releases.
>Ah my precious cruft :( Now I have to submit it to Factory ...

First world problems! Other parts of the world don't even have
factories let alone tumbling weed. ;-)
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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Marcus Rueckert-3
In reply to this post by Michael Aquilina
On 2017-10-12 13:52:59 +0000, Michael Aquilina wrote:
> I'm a bit late to this conversation but is the intention to completly
> get rid of python 2? I work with Python as my main language and while
> we work mostly with Python 3 there all still some occassions where we
> need a working verison of python 2.

well long term it would be nice to get rid of python2. wouldnt you
agree?

   darix

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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Michael Aquilina
I 100% agree, but the reality is that a lot of us will be working with
python 2 for a while to come - especially when it comes to legacy
systems which we cant migrate. A lot of the time the decision to move
to python 3 is not up the developer, but higher level management that
take care of the product.

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Marcus Rueckert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2017-10-12 13:52:59 +0000, Michael Aquilina wrote:
>> I'm a bit late to this conversation but is the intention to completly
>> get rid of python 2? I work with Python as my main language and while
>> we work mostly with Python 3 there all still some occassions where we
>> need a working verison of python 2.
>
> well long term it would be nice to get rid of python2. wouldnt you
> agree?
>
>    darix
>
> --
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>                openSUSE is good for you
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Odp.: [opensuse-factory] Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Tomas Chvatal
In reply to this post by Michael Aquilina
We plan to slowly remove the python2 as per upstream lifecycle

https://pythonclock.org/

I would assume we will remove to kill it at the end of 2019.

HTH

Tom

Michael Aquilina píše v Čt 12. 10. 2017 v 14:52 +0100:

> I'm a bit late to this conversation but is the intention to completly
> get rid of python 2? I work with Python as my main language and while
> we work mostly with Python 3 there all still some occassions where we
> need a working verison of python 2.
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:32 PM, Tomas Chvatal <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > as per $SUBJ all the packages that were in tumbleweed are properly
> > migrated to python singlespec and removed from the repository.
> >
> > As such within a month +- we will delete the repository and keep
> > just
> > one devel:languages:python.
> >
> > Please if you have something that is of interest just move it (and
> > if
> > applicable migrate to singlespec) and make sure it is submitted
> > against
> > Tumbleweed.
> >
> > As a followup we will later try to reduce the failures and content
> > in
> > devel:languages:python where plan is to keep it all in Tumbleweed
> > and
> > maintained, while removing cruft that was just submitted to devel
> > project and never forwarded for openSUSE releases.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Tom
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Aquilina

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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Marcus Rueckert-3
In reply to this post by Michael Aquilina
On 2017-10-12 14:02:45 +0000, Michael Aquilina wrote:
> I 100% agree, but the reality is that a lot of us will be working with
> python 2 for a while to come - especially when it comes to legacy
> systems which we cant migrate. A lot of the time the decision to move
> to python 3 is not up the developer, but higher level management that
> take care of the product.

you had time for almost 10years now. time to move on finally.

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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Michael Aquilina
Once again, its not really up to me or any developer similar to my
situation (and I am aware of quite a few). Very often large python 2.7
codebases are so tied to 2.7 that it becomes infeasible for a business
to halt work with actual business value for such a large time.
Companies will not see the benefit in a migration so large and that
has no user facing value. I personally suspect that the 2020 end of
life will not really get to that stage just because of this situation.

However, from my perspective the situation isn't be too bad if you
guys still feel really strongly about this and continue on with this.
Worst case scenario we can always download the python 2.7 tarball and
bypass the package manager.

I think you _at the very least should_ be aware that this will
negatively affect the workflow of quite a few developers though.

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:06 PM, Marcus Rueckert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 2017-10-12 14:02:45 +0000, Michael Aquilina wrote:
>> I 100% agree, but the reality is that a lot of us will be working with
>> python 2 for a while to come - especially when it comes to legacy
>> systems which we cant migrate. A lot of the time the decision to move
>> to python 3 is not up the developer, but higher level management that
>> take care of the product.
>
> you had time for almost 10years now. time to move on finally.
>
> --
>            openSUSE - SUSE Linux is my linux
>                openSUSE is good for you
>                    www.opensuse.org
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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Jan Engelhardt-4

On Thursday 2017-10-12 16:16, Michael Aquilina wrote:
>>
>> you had time for almost 10years now. time to move on finally.
>
>However, from my perspective the situation isn't be too bad if you
>guys still feel really strongly about this and continue on with this.
>Worst case scenario we can always download the python 2.7 tarball and
>bypass the package manager.

That is actually an argument for removing python2 *now*
(or more genrally: $software $sooner_than_later),
since you already made up your mind about using the tarball.
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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Michael Aquilina
I'm just trying to be pragmatic about the situation. I feel like this
will affect people but at the same time I would not want it to hold
back moving forward if we feel it is necessary.

One question I have is, what will happen to existing python2
installations? Will they just dissappear at some point?

Mike

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:21 PM, Jan Engelhardt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thursday 2017-10-12 16:16, Michael Aquilina wrote:
>>>
>>> you had time for almost 10years now. time to move on finally.
>>
>>However, from my perspective the situation isn't be too bad if you
>>guys still feel really strongly about this and continue on with this.
>>Worst case scenario we can always download the python 2.7 tarball and
>>bypass the package manager.
>
> That is actually an argument for removing python2 *now*
> (or more genrally: $software $sooner_than_later),
> since you already made up your mind about using the tarball.



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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Jan Engelhardt-4
On Thursday 2017-10-12 16:23, Michael Aquilina wrote:

>I'm just trying to be pragmatic about the situation. I feel like this
>will affect people but at the same time I would not want it to hold
>back moving forward if we feel it is necessary.
>
>One question I have is, what will happen to existing python2
>installations? Will they just dissappear at some point?

Who knows. There probably will be zombie systems running it forever,
just like DOS and Windows 98.
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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Marcus Rueckert-3
In reply to this post by Michael Aquilina
On 2017-10-12 14:23:13 +0000, Michael Aquilina wrote:
> I'm just trying to be pragmatic about the situation. I feel like this
> will affect people but at the same time I would not want it to hold
> back moving forward if we feel it is necessary.

Those people/companies then need to step up:

1. keep maintaining the python 2 support in the distros

and just as important

2. keep maintaining the code base *upstream*

just to give you an idea ... the world moves forward ... for python2 to
move with the world it needs to support e.g. openssl 1.1 or soon 1.2.

Who will do the port?

One could argue that enterprise customers do not want latest openssl
they are happy with the version they have. but even then some customers
do want to have e.g. TLS 1.2 or soon 1.3 ... that might require a new
version of the openssl package and python 2 to work with it.

You can add any other library here that might be used by python 2.

   darix

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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

gregfreemyer
In reply to this post by Michael Aquilina
On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 9:52 AM, Michael Aquilina
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm a bit late to this conversation but is the intention to completly
> get rid of python 2? I work with Python as my main language and while
> we work mostly with Python 3 there all still some occassions where we
> need a working verison of python 2.
>
> Mike

Mike,

The openSUSE team is giving us 2 years notice that they will be
strongly considering removing python 2 as of the end of 2019.

You likely need to identify where python 2 is still important and
start notifying stakeholders / managers that 2 years from now python 2
support will start disappearing.  But its not just an openSUSE issue,
it much bigger than that.

I assume you know one of the traditional ways to keep legacy code
running is to put it inside a VM and secure the VM with tight
firewalls.  So it Leap 42.3 for instance were the last python 2
supporting version of openSUSE, you just keep a Leap 42.3 VM going as
long as you need python 2.

FYI: I know I have some python 2 stuff I maintain still, but its not
even the direct upstream.  Its dependencies they call that haven't yet
added python 3 support.

Greg
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Re: Odp.: [opensuse-factory] Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Michael Ströder
In reply to this post by Tomas Chvatal
Tomas Chvatal wrote:
> We plan to slowly remove the python2 as per upstream lifecycle
>
> https://pythonclock.org/
>
> I would assume we will remove to kill it at the end of 2019.

This unofficial "clock" says April 2020.
Also the above web page says "No official date has been given..".

So why remove it before that time?

Ciao, Michael.


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Re: Odp.: [opensuse-factory] Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Tomas Chvatal
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512

Michael Ströder píše v Pá 13. 10. 2017 v 00:00 +0200:

> Tomas Chvatal wrote:
> >
> > We plan to slowly remove the python2 as per upstream lifecycle
> >
> > https://pythonclock.org/
> >
> > I would assume we will remove to kill it at the end of 2019.
>
> This unofficial "clock" says April 2020.
> Also the above web page says "No official date has been given..".
>
> So why remove it before that time?
>
There is no exact date specified, but 2.7 is operating with support
window of 10 years and thats it. Unless companies step up and start
maintaining it.

The clock is simply counting down to pycon so it might be less or it
might be bit more. But still it is better to be ready in advance now.

Also this is just SUSE statement that we will try to reduce our
exposure of python2 and simply be ready for the deprecation, so if you
as a community member volunteer to maintain the stuff you are more than
welcome, but please read this sentece as is "to maintain" not just set
one as bugowner and pretend everything is green.

Cheers

Tom
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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

todd rme
In reply to this post by Tomas Chvatal
On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Tomas Chvatal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> as per $SUBJ all the packages that were in tumbleweed are properly
> migrated to python singlespec and removed from the repository.
>
> As such within a month +- we will delete the repository and keep just
> one devel:languages:python.
>
> Please if you have something that is of interest just move it (and if
> applicable migrate to singlespec) and make sure it is submitted against
> Tumbleweed.
>
> As a followup we will later try to reduce the failures and content in
> devel:languages:python where plan is to keep it all in Tumbleweed and
> maintained, while removing cruft that was just submitted to devel
> project and never forwarded for openSUSE releases.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tom

Sorry for the late reply.

I think there is a lot of stuff that is in devel:languages:python but
that isn't really appropriate for openSUSE:Factory.  I would strongly
suggest either keeping those package in devel:languages:python or
creating a new repository (perhaps python:extra or
devel:languages:python:extra) for such packages.

Also, there are still hundreds of packages in devel:languages:python3.
I would suggest that, rather than deleting it now, it has building and
publishing disabled and all rpms wiped from the server, but that the
OSC repository is kept to easy singlespec porting efforts.
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Re: Deprecation of devel:languages:python3

Bruno Friedmann-2
On mardi, 17 octobre 2017 21.05:01 h CEST Todd Rme wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Tomas Chvatal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > as per $SUBJ all the packages that were in tumbleweed are properly
> > migrated to python singlespec and removed from the repository.
> >
> > As such within a month +- we will delete the repository and keep just
> > one devel:languages:python.
> >
> > Please if you have something that is of interest just move it (and if
> > applicable migrate to singlespec) and make sure it is submitted against
> > Tumbleweed.
> >
> > As a followup we will later try to reduce the failures and content in
> > devel:languages:python where plan is to keep it all in Tumbleweed and
> > maintained, while removing cruft that was just submitted to devel
> > project and never forwarded for openSUSE releases.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Tom
>
> Sorry for the late reply.
>
> I think there is a lot of stuff that is in devel:languages:python but
> that isn't really appropriate for openSUSE:Factory.  I would strongly
> suggest either keeping those package in devel:languages:python or
> creating a new repository (perhaps python:extra or
> devel:languages:python:extra) for such packages.
>
> Also, there are still hundreds of packages in devel:languages:python3.
> I would suggest that, rather than deleting it now, it has building and
> publishing disabled and all rpms wiped from the server, but that the
> OSC repository is kept to easy singlespec porting efforts.

I'm also in favor of, I've done my backport interest normally, but I certainly
forget some. Saving build power, and mirror space is good.

--

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 Bareos Partner, openSUSE Member, fsfe fellowship
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