Configuring service runlevels

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Configuring service runlevels

Marc Chamberlin
Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in
openSuSE12.3, and it appears that the switch-over to systemd is still a
work in progress, my question is this - Is the only workaround, to
automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
various services one needs? That is going to be a real PITA trying to
figure out by hand the order in which all our services must be started
and stopped. Anyone have another better workaround solution?

BTW - This is the second major bug I have now encountered in trying to
install and use openSuSE12.3. (The first was, and appears it may still
be, Bug 809843 which was a showstopper for me.) Can't say I am very
impressed with this release, and am thinking about dropping back to 12.2
(or perhaps even earlier) for our servers and gateway systems and wait
until 13.x comes out....

     Marc....

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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Cristian Rodríguez-2
El 10/04/13 17:57, Marc Chamberlin escribió:
>Is the only workaround, to
> automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
> manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
> various services one needs?

huh ? what makes you think that is a solution ?

to start service on boot

systemctl enable yourservice

it is that simple, and works.

yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
from YCP, that might take a while.

As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion in
order to survive.




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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Per Jessen
Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

> El 10/04/13 17:57, Marc Chamberlin escribió:
>>Is the only workaround, to
>> automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
>> manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for
>> the various services one needs?
>
> huh ? what makes you think that is a solution ?
>
> to start service on boot
>
> systemctl enable yourservice
>
> it is that simple, and works.
>
> yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
> from YCP, that might take a while.
>
> As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
> some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion
> in order to survive.

YCP isn't particularly difficult, anyone who can program will be able to
pick it up. It's more about a lack of developer-/community-interest in
YaST.


/Per

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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Cristian Rodríguez-2
In reply to this post by Marc Chamberlin
El 10/04/13 17:57, Marc Chamberlin escribió:
> Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in
> openSuSE12.3,

Ok, a little more commentary here.. the "runlevel" editor needs to be
changed to address the fact..that there no runlevels anymore :-)


>and it appears that the switch-over to systemd is still a
> work in progress,

In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.

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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Carlos E. R.-3
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On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 18:40 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:

>
> In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.

And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.

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        Carlos E. R.
        (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Marc Chamberlin
Marc Chamberlin said the following on 04/10/2013 04:57 PM:
> Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in
> openSuSE12.3, and it appears that the switch-over to systemd is still a
> work in progress,

Indeed.
Just like the kernel is a 'work in progress';
along with KDE4, Gnome, and everything else I have running under all the
versions of Linux I have.

Are you hinting that something like Windows is _not_ a work in progress?
(I realise that too can be taken more than one way!)

> my question is this - Is the only workaround, to
> automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
> manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
> various services one needs?

I can't see how that would be a work-around, and you haven't make it
clear what it would be a work-around for.

If you want to add services for boot time, well that's what the
'systemctl' command is for  (option: 'enable').  If you want to start
them right away, well that's what the 'systemctl' command is for
(option: 'start').

I realise that the 'systemctl' command (or its GUI equivilent) are
really just wrappers around the mechanism for symbolic links; heck the
man page even says that!  But it saves me having to specify a path.



> That is going to be a real PITA trying to
> figure out by hand the order in which all our services must be started
> and stopped. Anyone have another better workaround solution?

No; systemd make it a lot clearer the order in which things get started
and stopped.  Its called a dependency tree.
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/archive/index.php/t-266768.html

Things that aren't dependent on each other can be run in parallel.

In fact systemd *IS* the "Better Workaround".
Better because it overcomes so many problems that can and do arise with
the sysvinit approach.  All of which is well documented.  q.v.

>
> BTW - This is the second major bug I have now encountered in trying to
> install and use openSuSE12.3. (The first was, and appears it may still
> be, Bug 809843 which was a showstopper for me.) Can't say I am very
> impressed with this release, and am thinking about dropping back to 12.2
> (or perhaps even earlier) for our servers and gateway systems and wait
> until 13.x comes out....

You problem isn't with 12.3.
I had systemd working well in 12.2
The reason I had it working was that I let go of the sysvinit approach -
abandoned it altogether.  Having admitted that to myself I had no real
problem, no show-stoppers, just more reading of the man pages etc and
improving my understanding of systemd.

If old, decrepit, superannuated alzheimer-candidates like Patric and
myself can manage that, I'm sure that younger, more nimble minds can
manage it as well.

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doesn't want me to believe in him?
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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Cristian Rodríguez-2
Cristian Rodríguez said the following on 04/10/2013 05:04 PM:
> yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
> from YCP, that might take a while.
>
> As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
> some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion in
> order to survive.

If anything, THAT is the bug - that the one thing which distinguished
openSuse from other distributions, namely YAST, is unmaintainable!


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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Cristian Rodríguez-2
Cristian Rodríguez said the following on 04/10/2013 05:40 PM:
> El 10/04/13 17:57, Marc Chamberlin escribió:
>> Given that the YaST Runlevel editor is broken (Bug 800514) in
>> openSuSE12.3,
>
> Ok, a little more commentary here.. the "runlevel" editor needs to be
> changed to address the fact..that there no runlevels anymore :-)

Which is the bug.
The tools to manage system *are* there.

>> and it appears that the switch-over to systemd is still a
>> work in progress,
>
> In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.

And so many reviews of the past have said that it is Yast which makes
openSuse distinct.

*sigh*


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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Carlos E. R. said the following on 04/10/2013 05:48 PM:
>
>
> On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 18:40 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
>
>
>> In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
>
> And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.

Unless ...


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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Cristian Rodríguez-2
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On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 18:04 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
> El 10/04/13 17:57, Marc Chamberlin escribió:
>> Is the only workaround, to
>> automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
>> manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
>> various services one needs?
>
> huh ? what makes you think that is a solution ?

No, that never was a solution, not even in pure systemv times. Maybe in
early times, later with the makefile approach it would fail completely.


> to start service on boot
>
> systemctl enable yourservice
>
> it is that simple, and works.

Aparently, some people report that it doesn't, or not for all services; I
think those that do not have systemd native files fail.

Instead, they have to use:

   chkconfig yourservice on


- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
        (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Cristian Rodríguez-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
El 10/04/13 18:48, Carlos E. R. escribió:

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>
>
>
> On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 18:40 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
>
>>
>> In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
>
> And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.

Sorry but I do not see the connection between yast dying and openSUSE
dying.. anyway, work is being done to migrate out from the YCP language
and allow Yast development to continue using Ruby.

This of course is no warranty of success or it gaining more devs,
however the number people that know or want to learn ruby massively
outnumbers the ones willing to learn YCP.





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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Cristian Rodríguez-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
El 10/04/13 18:54, Carlos E. R. escribió:

>> to start service on boot
>>
>> systemctl enable yourservice
>>
>> it is that simple, and works.
>
> Aparently, some people report that it doesn't, or not for all services;
> I think those that do not have systemd native files fail.
>
> Instead, they have to use:
>
>    chkconfig yourservice on

Yes, there are services where "enable" is not an option, as well ones
where "disable" is also not an option.. the right instruction is "mask"
in such cases.

Do you know which services exactly cannot be enabled with systemctl ?



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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Carlos E. R.-2
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On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 19:04 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
> El 10/04/13 18:54, Carlos E. R. escribió:


>> Instead, they have to use:
>>
>>    chkconfig yourservice on
>
> Yes, there are services where "enable" is not an option, as well ones where
> "disable" is also not an option.. the right instruction is "mask" in such
> cases.
>
> Do you know which services exactly cannot be enabled with systemctl ?

No, I have not bothered to remember them. I mean, I have not considered
making a list, yet. The reports come often in the forums, and there is no
clear conclusion.

For example this one:
<http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php?t=485284>, the OP complains
about "nfs or xinetd or ddclient".



- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
        (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Carlos E. R.-3
In reply to this post by Cristian Rodríguez-2
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On Wednesday, 2013-04-10 at 19:00 -0300, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
> El 10/04/13 18:48, Carlos E. R. escribió:

>>> In this case it means Yast is dying due to the lack of developers.
>>
>> And in turn that will be the death of openSUSE.
>
> Sorry but I do not see the connection between yast dying and openSUSE dying..
> anyway, work is being done to migrate out from the YCP language and allow
> Yast development to continue using Ruby.

YaST is the single tool that marks the difference between openSUSE and the
rest of the distros. If YaST dissapears and I have to hand configure
things, then I could as well use any thing like Debian instead.

IMNSHO :-)

- --
Cheers,
        Carlos E. R.
        (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)
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Re: Configuring service runlevels

John Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
On 4/10/2013 2:51 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

> Cristian Rodr�guez said the following on 04/10/2013 05:04 PM:
>> yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
>> from YCP, that might take a while.
>>
>> As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
>> some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion in
>> order to survive.
>
> If anything, THAT is the bug - that the one thing which distinguished
> openSuse from other distributions, namely YAST, is unmaintainable!
>
>



This!
Yast is a standout product, and when I hate to see it replaced by a bunch
of CLI utilities who's name you can never remember is a shame.

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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Cristian Rodríguez-2
El 10/04/13 20:23, John Andersen escribió:
> On 4/10/2013 2:51 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

> This!
> Yast is a standout product, and when I hate to see it replaced by a bunch
> of CLI utilities who's name you can never remember is a shame.
>

Yast is not getting replaced by command line tools, how to do a
particular task in the command line while Yast problems get sorted out
is what is suggested here.
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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-3
Carlos E. R. said the following on 04/10/2013 07:02 PM:
>
> YaST is the single tool that marks the difference between openSUSE
> and the rest of the distros. If YaST dissapears and I have to hand
> configure things, then I could as well use any thing like Debian
> instead.
>
> IMNSHO :-)

+1
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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Marc Chamberlin
In reply to this post by Cristian Rodríguez-2
On 4/10/2013 2:04 PM, Cristian Rodríguez wrote:
> El 10/04/13 17:57, Marc Chamberlin escribió:
>> Is the only workaround, to
>> automatically starting up services during boot up, is to go in and
>> manually create the links in the /etc/init.d/rc*.d directories for the
>> various services one needs?
>
> huh ? what makes you think that is a solution ?
Wow, had no idea I was going to create such a firestorm of replies!!!

Why do I think this is a solution? Because one of the replies (Comment
#8) in Bug #800514 implied that it might be. And I tried it for the
dhcpd service and it worked... Then I realized that this was going to be
a difficult workaround approach when it came to trying to figure out the
order in which services need to be started and stopped (which is info
that I discovered is embedded in the names of the links in the various
rc*.d directories...) Hence I asked and stated what I had tried....
>
> to start service on boot
>
> systemctl enable yourservice
Thanks, I will give that a try again...  I actually did see this command
mentioned in Bug #800514 and gave it a shot on one of our services, and
it failed for some reason. I will try to revisit it and see if I can
recreate it, (I think it was for named) but it may have been an
interaction with the other bug I mentioned about supporting dual NICs on
a gateway. Not being familiar with this command, or systemd in general,
I set it aside and continued to try an grok the situation and look for
other solutions.
>
> it is that simple, and works.
The learning curve is sometimes very steep and there are lots of "magic"
commands that not everyone is familiar with. That is why having good
GUI's, that act as guides to help us poor uneducated users solve such
problems, is so important. IMHO! Then we wouldn't have to bother the
experts with our dumb questions. Having a sea of command line commands
with a universe of options is wonderful for all the advance Linux gurus
in the world, but for those of us who are learning the ropes, it is not
always easy to find these golden nuggets on our own or discover/grok a
new command such as systemctl.... Please do not assume that someone who
is asking questions and struggling with his/her system is as
knowledgeable about the subject, as you are...
>
> yast modules will probably be revamped/improved when converted to Ruby
> from YCP, that might take a while.
>
> As there are only a handful of souls that speak the YCP language and
> some of them even no longer work for SUSE..yast needs such conversion
> in order to survive.
>
I look forward to the day when a new GUI presents itself in the openSuSE
world. In the meantime, don't be surprised if/when I ask "dumb"
questions on how to do something that YaST was once able to do for me.
Getting openSuSE12.3 up an running has become a frustrating experience
for us. Our servers and gateway systems were running under 11.4 for a
long time, but with some growing discomfort, so we decided it was time
to try an upgrade... It has NOT proven to be an easy transition...

    Marc...


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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
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On Thursday, 2013-04-11 at 00:54 +0200, Carlos E. R. wrote:

>> Do you know which services exactly cannot be enabled with systemctl ?
>
> No, I have not bothered to remember them. I mean, I have not considered
> making a list, yet. The reports come often in the forums, and there is no
> clear conclusion.
>
> For example this one:
> <http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php?t=485284>, the OP complains
> about "nfs or xinetd or ddclient".

A new one: <http://forums.opensuse.org/showthread.php?t=485734>

- --
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        Carlos E. R.
        (from 12.1 x86_64 "Asparagus" at Telcontar)

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Re: Configuring service runlevels

Cristian Rodríguez-2
In reply to this post by Marc Chamberlin
El 10/04/13 21:06, Marc Chamberlin escribió:



> I look forward to the day when a new GUI presents itself in the openSuSE
> world.

We are not talking about a new GUI yet ;-) just converting the existing
code to language that more programmers understand or are willing to
learn. THEN something new might come up, who knows..


In the meantime, don't be surprised if/when I ask "dumb"
> questions on how to do something that YaST was once able to do for me.
> Getting openSuSE12.3 up an running has become a frustrating experience
> for us.

I understand, unfortunately Yast is showing up its age and keeping it
current with the underlying system changes is a task that is in need of
manpower at the moment.




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