Community? Discussions? etc..

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Community? Discussions? etc..

L A Walsh
FWIW, Responding to notes like these takes time -- days for
a first draft (over 2 days for this one).  Most of my notes
take time for anything but simple answers as I too often
need to spend time looking things up.  Even after writing
a note there are many times I don't think it is good enough
or worthwhile enough to send and end saying nothing and
only wasting hours or days of composition.  sigh.

It's also not a real fun topic area: politics, confirming and
finding the basis for perceptions and/or correcting
misperceptions, but feeling a need to understand
what feels like a disproportionate amount of blame or
anger for excessive characterizations that don't seem
to fit my actions.

That said...

  Richard Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 17 July 2017 at 02:56, L A Walsh <suse@> wrote:
>  
>> ---
>>    If you are tired of "running" this list, let me know and I'll
>> take it over, as well as creating a opensuse-systemd discussion group.
>>    
>
> I am not tired of being responsible for this Project, and when that
> day comes I will do my best to hand over the reigns to someone who has
> demonstrated an ability to act in good faith while contributing to the
> community. That will not be you.
>  
    The ability to remain professional or detached when managing a
list is a key trait of a good list owner.  Failure to remain
objective can often be a sign of burnout and the need to 'get away
from it'.  Taking your frustrations out on a list-member really doesn't
seem proper -- especially when your attacks are vague, without facts,
and couched in threats about the actions of a board that you seem
to indicate will follow your direction.

Even your response above is loaded with manipulative phrasing --
saying that anyone running this list will act in "good faith"
(in your judgment), while contributing to the community
(in your judgment) -- with the goal being that those who are
tasked with voting on an issue, show "good faith" by making judgments
as you would make them (I.e. "good faith behavior" = emulating you).
Certainly many looking up to you will want to demonstrate such
regardless of the details.

    As for my "contributions" -- I got that they were no longer wanted
unless I was willing to make them systemd compatible, where appropriate.
Examples included a few startup scripts to improve flexibility, reliability
and/or security, as well as Makefile changes to accomplish similar goals.

It may or may not have been mentioned, but it seemed that using
something like wicked or a new tool to determine boot-dependencies could
build a disk-bootable kernel for users that wanted them.  I thought I
might look at that if I had time and got things to work, though given
the current SW climate and my energy levels, I don't have much
enthusiasm for doing any SW work -- especially when the environment
becomes threatening, coercive and hostile.

>
>> My suggestion is to create a separate venue for all systemd related
>> discussion.  That provides a neutral way to recover this list for
>> more general support purposes (other than kernel, factory or systemd
>> topics).    
>
> There is already a place to discuss systemd design, such as its
> flexibility and configurability. It is
> https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
>  
---
    I wasn't aware it was the venue for systemd integration,
implementation, alternatives and problems *as* *specifically*
related to opensuse.   There have been several design decisions
that ostensibly have had little to do with systemd-devel that have
been implemented within opensuse's implementation that don't
seem required by systemd.  It doesn't seem appropriate to discuss
opensuse's specific implementation details, especially ones that
don't directly relate to systemd-devel.  

As an example, systemd recommends booting directly from disk and
not using initrd to support fast booting.  Fast booting was
initially given as one of the reasons for the move to a new
boot system.  Given that premise, it is surprising that direct
boot, previously supported, was removed as a supported option
with the move to systemd -- EVEN though systemd recommends using
it for boot speed.  Some people think that talking about this issue
has something to do with systemd -- IT DOESN'T as systemd doesn't
require it.

This highlights part of the problem.  For me -- several of the
decisions regarding opensuse boot don't seem to be part of
a generic systemd implementation, but were about choices opensuse
made. I am pretty sure that systemd-devel would NOT be a place
to find out or discuss these opensuse differences.

> At this time there is no point creating an openSUSE equivalent to this
> list, as our maintainers do not need a new list to read when that
> upstream one works perfectly fine for their current work.
>  
----
    Because as decisions arise regarding how to implement
opensuse's integration of systemd were in what group?  Where is
the archive?  AFAIK, there isn't one.

> That always could change if more contributors got involved, as is the
> case with the kernel, but it's been 6 years now so I think the
> situation is unlikely.
>  
    From what has been said in the past, these decisions were made
"offline" at F2F meetings in Europe, some at O.S. conferences.  The
message given was that if you didn't attend, you were not allowed input
into the decision process.  This seems to point at another need for
more communication about boot & service processes/control on openSuSE.

You say things haven't changed for 6 years, so having a venue to
talk about the current processes (or change) is not needed -- yet
saying it "isn't needed" is a perpetuation of the thinking and
manipulation that made the change without the input of the online
community.  You don't want it discussed here, and you don't want it
discussed in another group -- just like you didn't want it discussed
online when the decision was made to change the boot+service control
environment.

It's not about "it's over"... it's a matter of 1) it not beginning,
and 2) asserting that how it is now, is "permanent" and no one should
be allowed to discuss anything different unless they've already
created a new option.

I've had more than one experience with creating
new options in "open-source" SW -- to have them rejected after
the "put-up-or-shut-up" bluff was called. How is it different
in this situation?

As for another 'group' -- it's also the case that the group wouldn't
necessarily be aimed at developers, but at those from this group that
might want systemd help or want to discuss it past the tolerance
level of people on this group.

    It was for _you_ and the community that _I_ thought separating out
systemd discussion would be of benefit.  It seemed that would be both
a fair method of achieving your goal to reduce discussion of it here,
as well as allowing design discussions, including how to work around
various shortcomings that people using opensuse have encountered.

    I'm surprised you would be against such an option -- almost as if you
prefer a heavy-handed method as only that method will allow
you to get rid of community members you don't like.


>>> Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support
>>> only systemd.
>>>      
>>    And they all have expressed their choice to do so?  And others weren't
>> disallowed contributing due to random problems?
>>    
>
> Every single contributor has the right to contribute what they want,
> how they want.
----
    If systemd can't be discussed, how much freedom can there possibly be
to support variations?


> If someone woke up tomorrow and somehow resurrected
> SysV init support, patched all the upstream projects that no longer
> support SysV init, and made sure they all worked to our standard level
> of quality, then I'm sure we'd take those contributions, somehow.
>  
----
    Are you saying that, say, 11.3 or 11.4 didn't support "your level"
of quality?  It was my experience, that I could upgrade from the 8, 9, 10
and 11 series to the next level, and not end up with a non-bootable
system.  Multiple times in upgrades in the later 12's and 13's
I had to restore files from backup to get a working system again.
Yet I get the impression that if I report such problems and they have
anything to do with the boot system, system services (daemons), program
communications -- or anything else that systemd has touched, I'd be
talking about a forbidden topic.

    The last time I tried making a VM with tumbleweed, I didn't even
get to a login prompt.  The time before, trying to install leap, I was told
that the version I tried wasn't released yet (I mistakenly thought leap
was a line of released products, and that factory was still the factory
portion of things -- my bad).

    Nevertheless, my experience in trying to run from a standard
install image into a VM (not anything to do with my "modified"[sic]
server), has not given me the impression of increased quality.


> I do not buy the 'random problems' nonsense - you could always make a
> new OBS account if your old one is broken.
---
    I wanted to find out how "I" broke the existing one and fix it.
If I don't know what I did wrong, it's very likely I'd end up in the
same situation again.  Jumping forward without understanding what
went wrong seems a waste of time to me, bordering on foolishness, yet
you don't "buy it".  Hmmm.

>>> But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and
>>> discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that.
>>>      
Ok, here's one where I want proof.  You claim I "hate" systemd, show
me where I clearly indicate that.  I'm pretty sure I've liked some
things -- maybe most of it, but disliked some design decisions and
how it has been forced from the top down.  Even now, discussion is being
threatened with terminating peoples' list membership,
up to and including the whole list if you don't get your way.

As for doing nothing to correct problems?  I have at least ~3000 lines
of perl and ~1000 of shell to fix these problems, but I wouldn't
consider them production.  Sorry to disillusion you but it is
not my highest priority.

>> I spoke up against removal and gutting of
>> LSB utils like chkconfig to redirect things to sysd, followed by wholesale
>> conversion and removal of scripts from /etc/init.d.
>>    
>
> Mostly a result of decisions made by the various upstreams.
>  
----
Some yes, but I wouldn't say mostly since many upstream tools have a
fair number of users and systems that want unix compatibility.  Posix
is making a resurgence, and I've yet to see posix compatibility be even on
the radar of systemd.  Note: I'm not a posix fan, I'm just noticing
pressures toward older compatibility increasing in some areas --
maybe not incompatibly, I don't know.
> Maintaining old cruft, which sysVinit now is, requires people to do
> it. When we have no one to do it, there is nothing to discuss. Ergo,
> no reason to post a systemd related discussion on this list.
>  
    I usually don't post anything about the work I'd done until
I thought I had something I wanted to release.  I have too many things
I've wanted to do and not enough time to do them.


> And even if there was reason to discuss systemd, something like that
> isn't a user support topic, so there is no reason to discuss it on
> this list.
>  
----

    There were already 50 notes in the thread when I made my first post.
I posted in response to someone talking about how configurable and flexible
it was -- which wasn't my experience -- something that I wanted
to bring up.  It's always possible things have changed and I was in
the dark.


> This mailinglist is not [hidden email].
On what basis do you make such an attack?

Since January, I've posted 12 new topic
notes having nothing to do with sysd
(gcc, finding uninstalled files, 'getdelays', handbrake,
browser configuration, finding opensuse rfc package, inet utils,
static linking of sash, virtual box problem, gnuchess dep,
wget security).

One was about broken symlinks (could have
been taken as related to boot, as related to sysd).

And 2 mentioning sysd (samsung usage, and ubuntu dns problems).

Sorry, but where you do you get those are anything
to do privately w/me?

Responses... too many to analyze, but I'll grant it is
likely they may have more sysd related stuff as they are
generally in response to others talking about it, one way or
the other.  If I read something that is NOT true, and goes
against my experience, I'm likely to speak up with concrete
examples.  That isn't religion, and the above doesn't even
begin to approach me earning your insulting characterizing.

>  We will not make such a list to accommodate you.
----
    I've not asked for such -- and if this anyone's
personal list, it seems to be yours, as you are threatening to
take your toys and go home if you don't get your way and people
don't ban people for non-factual reasons.

    Same has gone for the issue of my system being
"modded or not".  As mentioned elsewhere, my "modifications"[sic]
have mostly been in NOT allowing newer modifications to delete
older OpenSuse behaviors and features.  I generally don't go
off extensively on those issues as most people would find
such detail boring, but some come up as people ask about 'this'
or 'that', and I relate such.

The only list i asked for was a separate list so
a topic that bothered *you* so much would be more easily diverted off
this list.  As I said, maybe no one would post -- I don't know if I'd
have time to post or read it.  It was for _YOU_ and
systemd-discussion-haters that I proposed a different list, so you
wouldn't have to look at it, and people here could quickly point
posters to that list for its discussion.  I'm was quite serious --
and you just don't get it.

You seem to prefer the opportunity to expel people for responding
to other people discussing your forbidden topics.  If that's the
case, you'll find your reasons no matter what.  If you want to kick
people who've been using opensuse since, at least, dec 1999 (ordered
cd's/dvd) and on this list since, at least, 2001, then please
let people know how unappreciated long-term users and contributors
(as in filing bugs and providing solution sources) go right ahead.

>  Please keep your
> conversations relevant to this list,
I have been and have even given a way to increase this
list's focus -- but you seem to want some people to discuss it
here, but NOT others.  That's decidedly unfair.


> and take your concerns regarding
> systemd ...  We've had 6
> years of moaning, misusing openSUSE mailinglists for ...
----
    You have had 6 years of problems that people have run into.
I can't say that's true for everyone,  but I rarely post about non
problems.  I mention my experience and problems in getting things
to work.  When they don't work I'm told it is my fault and that you
don't want to hear about such problems until I contribute something.
You don't realize how asinine that sounds.

    Let people know that the "open"[sic] suse lists are for
contributors-only, and mentioning or responding to sysd problems
w/ones own related probs or experience (who would like workarounds and
would like to see more things *not* break) is strictly verboten
under your rules.

    Like I said, if you have evidence to back up what you are
saying, show me the specifics and let me know what I should have
done instead.   As it is, I try to not post or read this list
very often for fear that I might respond.

    OTOH, I can go back and produce statistics, though not
necessarily easily.  But I've been on this list for alot more
time than sysd has been around, so I think the numbers will
weigh in favor of most of my posts NOT being about sysd.

    You want to get rid of people around over a decade
from before systemd came about?  What community are you
trying to save?








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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink
Top posting to save others from scrolling.

Please stop. I've always valued having an [hidden email] ML, but this
is going nowhere. Without reading the entire 2 miles you''re posting today,
this is not what the [hidden email] ML is for. It is not your personal
ML. It's there to offer support. People are refusing to use this list, for
&*^& sake.  

Op donderdag 20 juli 2017 21:06:46 CEST schreef L A Walsh:

> FWIW, Responding to notes like these takes time -- days for
> a first draft (over 2 days for this one).  Most of my notes
> take time for anything but simple answers as I too often
> need to spend time looking things up.  Even after writing
> a note there are many times I don't think it is good enough
> or worthwhile enough to send and end saying nothing and
> only wasting hours or days of composition.  sigh.
>
> It's also not a real fun topic area: politics, confirming and
> finding the basis for perceptions and/or correcting
> misperceptions, but feeling a need to understand
> what feels like a disproportionate amount of blame or
> anger for excessive characterizations that don't seem
> to fit my actions.
>
> That said...
>
>   Richard Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 17 July 2017 at 02:56, L A Walsh <suse@> wrote:
> >> ---
> >>
> >>    If you are tired of "running" this list, let me know and I'll
> >>
> >> take it over, as well as creating a opensuse-systemd discussion group.
> >
> > I am not tired of being responsible for this Project, and when that
> > day comes I will do my best to hand over the reigns to someone who has
> > demonstrated an ability to act in good faith while contributing to the
> > community. That will not be you.
>
>     The ability to remain professional or detached when managing a
> list is a key trait of a good list owner.  Failure to remain
> objective can often be a sign of burnout and the need to 'get away
> from it'.  Taking your frustrations out on a list-member really doesn't
> seem proper -- especially when your attacks are vague, without facts,
> and couched in threats about the actions of a board that you seem
> to indicate will follow your direction.
>
> Even your response above is loaded with manipulative phrasing --
> saying that anyone running this list will act in "good faith"
> (in your judgment), while contributing to the community
> (in your judgment) -- with the goal being that those who are
> tasked with voting on an issue, show "good faith" by making judgments
> as you would make them (I.e. "good faith behavior" = emulating you).
> Certainly many looking up to you will want to demonstrate such
> regardless of the details.
>
>     As for my "contributions" -- I got that they were no longer wanted
> unless I was willing to make them systemd compatible, where appropriate.
> Examples included a few startup scripts to improve flexibility, reliability
> and/or security, as well as Makefile changes to accomplish similar goals.
>
> It may or may not have been mentioned, but it seemed that using
> something like wicked or a new tool to determine boot-dependencies could
> build a disk-bootable kernel for users that wanted them.  I thought I
> might look at that if I had time and got things to work, though given
> the current SW climate and my energy levels, I don't have much
> enthusiasm for doing any SW work -- especially when the environment
> becomes threatening, coercive and hostile.
>
> >> My suggestion is to create a separate venue for all systemd related
> >> discussion.  That provides a neutral way to recover this list for
> >> more general support purposes (other than kernel, factory or systemd
> >> topics).
> >
> > There is already a place to discuss systemd design, such as its
> > flexibility and configurability. It is
> > https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/systemd-devel
>
> ---
>     I wasn't aware it was the venue for systemd integration,
> implementation, alternatives and problems *as* *specifically*
> related to opensuse.   There have been several design decisions
> that ostensibly have had little to do with systemd-devel that have
> been implemented within opensuse's implementation that don't
> seem required by systemd.  It doesn't seem appropriate to discuss
> opensuse's specific implementation details, especially ones that
> don't directly relate to systemd-devel.
>
> As an example, systemd recommends booting directly from disk and
> not using initrd to support fast booting.  Fast booting was
> initially given as one of the reasons for the move to a new
> boot system.  Given that premise, it is surprising that direct
> boot, previously supported, was removed as a supported option
> with the move to systemd -- EVEN though systemd recommends using
> it for boot speed.  Some people think that talking about this issue
> has something to do with systemd -- IT DOESN'T as systemd doesn't
> require it.
>
> This highlights part of the problem.  For me -- several of the
> decisions regarding opensuse boot don't seem to be part of
> a generic systemd implementation, but were about choices opensuse
> made. I am pretty sure that systemd-devel would NOT be a place
> to find out or discuss these opensuse differences.
>
> > At this time there is no point creating an openSUSE equivalent to this
> > list, as our maintainers do not need a new list to read when that
> > upstream one works perfectly fine for their current work.
>
> ----
>     Because as decisions arise regarding how to implement
> opensuse's integration of systemd were in what group?  Where is
> the archive?  AFAIK, there isn't one.
>
> > That always could change if more contributors got involved, as is the
> > case with the kernel, but it's been 6 years now so I think the
> > situation is unlikely.
>
>     From what has been said in the past, these decisions were made
> "offline" at F2F meetings in Europe, some at O.S. conferences.  The
> message given was that if you didn't attend, you were not allowed input
> into the decision process.  This seems to point at another need for
> more communication about boot & service processes/control on openSuSE.
>
> You say things haven't changed for 6 years, so having a venue to
> talk about the current processes (or change) is not needed -- yet
> saying it "isn't needed" is a perpetuation of the thinking and
> manipulation that made the change without the input of the online
> community.  You don't want it discussed here, and you don't want it
> discussed in another group -- just like you didn't want it discussed
> online when the decision was made to change the boot+service control
> environment.
>
> It's not about "it's over"... it's a matter of 1) it not beginning,
> and 2) asserting that how it is now, is "permanent" and no one should
> be allowed to discuss anything different unless they've already
> created a new option.
>
> I've had more than one experience with creating
> new options in "open-source" SW -- to have them rejected after
> the "put-up-or-shut-up" bluff was called. How is it different
> in this situation?
>
> As for another 'group' -- it's also the case that the group wouldn't
> necessarily be aimed at developers, but at those from this group that
> might want systemd help or want to discuss it past the tolerance
> level of people on this group.
>
>     It was for _you_ and the community that _I_ thought separating out
> systemd discussion would be of benefit.  It seemed that would be both
> a fair method of achieving your goal to reduce discussion of it here,
> as well as allowing design discussions, including how to work around
> various shortcomings that people using opensuse have encountered.
>
>     I'm surprised you would be against such an option -- almost as if you
> prefer a heavy-handed method as only that method will allow
> you to get rid of community members you don't like.
>
> >>> Right now, the several hundred contributors to openSUSE all support
> >>> only systemd.
> >>>
> >>    And they all have expressed their choice to do so?  And others weren't
> >>
> >> disallowed contributing due to random problems?
> >
> > Every single contributor has the right to contribute what they want,
> > how they want.
>
> ----
>     If systemd can't be discussed, how much freedom can there possibly be
> to support variations?
>
> > If someone woke up tomorrow and somehow resurrected
> > SysV init support, patched all the upstream projects that no longer
> > support SysV init, and made sure they all worked to our standard level
> > of quality, then I'm sure we'd take those contributions, somehow.
>
> ----
>     Are you saying that, say, 11.3 or 11.4 didn't support "your level"
> of quality?  It was my experience, that I could upgrade from the 8, 9, 10
> and 11 series to the next level, and not end up with a non-bootable
> system.  Multiple times in upgrades in the later 12's and 13's
> I had to restore files from backup to get a working system again.
> Yet I get the impression that if I report such problems and they have
> anything to do with the boot system, system services (daemons), program
> communications -- or anything else that systemd has touched, I'd be
> talking about a forbidden topic.
>
>     The last time I tried making a VM with tumbleweed, I didn't even
> get to a login prompt.  The time before, trying to install leap, I was told
> that the version I tried wasn't released yet (I mistakenly thought leap
> was a line of released products, and that factory was still the factory
> portion of things -- my bad).
>
>     Nevertheless, my experience in trying to run from a standard
> install image into a VM (not anything to do with my "modified"[sic]
> server), has not given me the impression of increased quality.
>
> > I do not buy the 'random problems' nonsense - you could always make a
> > new OBS account if your old one is broken.
>
> ---
>     I wanted to find out how "I" broke the existing one and fix it.
> If I don't know what I did wrong, it's very likely I'd end up in the
> same situation again.  Jumping forward without understanding what
> went wrong seems a waste of time to me, bordering on foolishness, yet
> you don't "buy it".  Hmmm.
>
> >>> But the fact is, the people involved in hating on systemd and
> >>> discuessing it endlessly have done nothing to correct that.
>
> Ok, here's one where I want proof.  You claim I "hate" systemd, show
> me where I clearly indicate that.  I'm pretty sure I've liked some
> things -- maybe most of it, but disliked some design decisions and
> how it has been forced from the top down.  Even now, discussion is being
> threatened with terminating peoples' list membership,
> up to and including the whole list if you don't get your way.
>
> As for doing nothing to correct problems?  I have at least ~3000 lines
> of perl and ~1000 of shell to fix these problems, but I wouldn't
> consider them production.  Sorry to disillusion you but it is
> not my highest priority.
>
> >> I spoke up against removal and gutting of
> >> LSB utils like chkconfig to redirect things to sysd, followed by
> >> wholesale
> >> conversion and removal of scripts from /etc/init.d.
> >
> > Mostly a result of decisions made by the various upstreams.
>
> ----
> Some yes, but I wouldn't say mostly since many upstream tools have a
> fair number of users and systems that want unix compatibility.  Posix
> is making a resurgence, and I've yet to see posix compatibility be even on
> the radar of systemd.  Note: I'm not a posix fan, I'm just noticing
> pressures toward older compatibility increasing in some areas --
> maybe not incompatibly, I don't know.
>
> > Maintaining old cruft, which sysVinit now is, requires people to do
> > it. When we have no one to do it, there is nothing to discuss. Ergo,
> > no reason to post a systemd related discussion on this list.
>
>     I usually don't post anything about the work I'd done until
> I thought I had something I wanted to release.  I have too many things
> I've wanted to do and not enough time to do them.
>
> > And even if there was reason to discuss systemd, something like that
> > isn't a user support topic, so there is no reason to discuss it on
> > this list.
>
> ----
>
>     There were already 50 notes in the thread when I made my first post.
> I posted in response to someone talking about how configurable and flexible
> it was -- which wasn't my experience -- something that I wanted
> to bring up.  It's always possible things have changed and I was in
> the dark.
>
> > This mailinglist is not [hidden email].
>
> On what basis do you make such an attack?
>
> Since January, I've posted 12 new topic
> notes having nothing to do with sysd
> (gcc, finding uninstalled files, 'getdelays', handbrake,
> browser configuration, finding opensuse rfc package, inet utils,
> static linking of sash, virtual box problem, gnuchess dep,
> wget security).
>
> One was about broken symlinks (could have
> been taken as related to boot, as related to sysd).
>
> And 2 mentioning sysd (samsung usage, and ubuntu dns problems).
>
> Sorry, but where you do you get those are anything
> to do privately w/me?
>
> Responses... too many to analyze, but I'll grant it is
> likely they may have more sysd related stuff as they are
> generally in response to others talking about it, one way or
> the other.  If I read something that is NOT true, and goes
> against my experience, I'm likely to speak up with concrete
> examples.  That isn't religion, and the above doesn't even
> begin to approach me earning your insulting characterizing.
>
> >  We will not make such a list to accommodate you.
>
> ----
>     I've not asked for such -- and if this anyone's
> personal list, it seems to be yours, as you are threatening to
> take your toys and go home if you don't get your way and people
> don't ban people for non-factual reasons.
>
>     Same has gone for the issue of my system being
> "modded or not".  As mentioned elsewhere, my "modifications"[sic]
> have mostly been in NOT allowing newer modifications to delete
> older OpenSuse behaviors and features.  I generally don't go
> off extensively on those issues as most people would find
> such detail boring, but some come up as people ask about 'this'
> or 'that', and I relate such.
>
> The only list i asked for was a separate list so
> a topic that bothered *you* so much would be more easily diverted off
> this list.  As I said, maybe no one would post -- I don't know if I'd
> have time to post or read it.  It was for _YOU_ and
> systemd-discussion-haters that I proposed a different list, so you
> wouldn't have to look at it, and people here could quickly point
> posters to that list for its discussion.  I'm was quite serious --
> and you just don't get it.
>
> You seem to prefer the opportunity to expel people for responding
> to other people discussing your forbidden topics.  If that's the
> case, you'll find your reasons no matter what.  If you want to kick
> people who've been using opensuse since, at least, dec 1999 (ordered
> cd's/dvd) and on this list since, at least, 2001, then please
> let people know how unappreciated long-term users and contributors
> (as in filing bugs and providing solution sources) go right ahead.
>
> >  Please keep your
> >
> > conversations relevant to this list,
>
> I have been and have even given a way to increase this
> list's focus -- but you seem to want some people to discuss it
> here, but NOT others.  That's decidedly unfair.
>
> > and take your concerns regarding
> > systemd ...  We've had 6
> > years of moaning, misusing openSUSE mailinglists for ...
>
> ----
>     You have had 6 years of problems that people have run into.
> I can't say that's true for everyone,  but I rarely post about non
> problems.  I mention my experience and problems in getting things
> to work.  When they don't work I'm told it is my fault and that you
> don't want to hear about such problems until I contribute something.
> You don't realize how asinine that sounds.
>
>     Let people know that the "open"[sic] suse lists are for
> contributors-only, and mentioning or responding to sysd problems
> w/ones own related probs or experience (who would like workarounds and
> would like to see more things *not* break) is strictly verboten
> under your rules.
>
>     Like I said, if you have evidence to back up what you are
> saying, show me the specifics and let me know what I should have
> done instead.   As it is, I try to not post or read this list
> very often for fear that I might respond.
>
>     OTOH, I can go back and produce statistics, though not
> necessarily easily.  But I've been on this list for alot more
> time than sysd has been around, so I think the numbers will
> weigh in favor of most of my posts NOT being about sysd.
>
>     You want to get rid of people around over a decade
> from before systemd came about?  What community are you
> trying to save?


--
Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht

openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team

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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Carmen Bianca Bakker
In reply to this post by L A Walsh
Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to provide
support for people wherever/whenever I am capable, not to filter through
drama.

I am sure that you raise valid points, and I am certain that so does Richard,
but I've really had it with these endless back-and-forths.

Best regards,
Carmen

--
Carmen Bianca Bakker <[hidden email]>
PGP: 2A09 F627 39F6 DEC8 CFFC  A216 CD0A 90F1 C5CA 0C92

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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Brian K. White
In reply to this post by L A Walsh
On 7/20/2017 3:06 PM, L A Walsh wrote:
> FWIW, Responding to notes like these takes time -- days for
> a first draft (over 2 days for this one).  Most of my notes
> take time for anything but simple answers as I too often
> need to spend time looking things up.  Even after writing
> a note there are many times I don't think it is good enough
> or worthwhile enough to send and end saying nothing and
> only wasting hours or days of composition.  sigh.

That definitely seems to be a factor, that someone who does not invest
much thought in their posts does not properly interpret that someone
else might have.

IE: Not all statements are equal. One person might say something after
45 minutes of research and on the spot testing and checking assumptions,
and then someone else hearing it will disregard it lightly, because they
themselves never do that. Their own statements are mere opinion, so they
perceive and treat all other statements as equally insubstantial.

I naively keep thinking that there's really nothing you can do except
keep on making sure your own statements hold water, so that ultimately
the record can always shake out the truth. But in reality that doesn't
usually happen. A tide of opinion can often totally override and ignore
facts and robust reasoning. No one reads through a thread from the
beginning to see if there is a pattern to show who deserves to be
believed and who doesn't.

Sometimes I try to ask things as questions, to force people to realize
for themselves that they can't answer the question, other than by saying
what I would have said. The idea being that you can't simply tell some
people anything, regardless if it's a true fact or if it's a sequence of
reasoning that holds water. But if they arrive at the truth themselves
by trying to answer a question, then they can't very well simply ignore
it because they ignore everything from a source they don't like. Even
this very often doesn't work. At that point the topic is exposed as
religion, and there is nothing you can do about someone who is religious
on a topic. They will in fact accuse you of the same thing, whether that
accusation has any basis or not. It's like mere namecalling instead of
an actual set of words with an actual meaning. There's nothing you can
do about that either.

--
bkw


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Brian K. White
In reply to this post by Carmen Bianca Bakker
On 7/20/2017 4:51 PM, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
> Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to provide

Please, please stop trying to tell other people what to talk about. The
discussion is neither off-topic, nor spam, nor personal attacks,
therefor, you are out of line.

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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

listreader
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 18:10:26 -0400
"Brian K. White" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/20/2017 4:51 PM, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
> > Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to
> > provide  
>
> Please, please stop trying to tell other people what to talk about.
> The discussion is neither off-topic, nor spam, nor personal attacks,
> therefor, you are out of line.
>

+1  rofl

R

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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Carmen Bianca Bakker
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On Friday, 21 July 2017 00:10:26 CEST Brian K. White wrote:
> On 7/20/2017 4:51 PM, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
> > Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to provide
>
> Please, please stop trying to tell other people what to talk about.

Surely you see the irony in that statement.

> discussion is neither off-topic, nor spam, nor personal attacks,
> therefor, you are out of line.

This is a user support mailing list, not mailing list for technical/
ideological debates.  It is incredibly off-topic.  Try opensuse-project for
discussions or opensuse-factory for contributions towards making openSUSE
systemd-indepedent.

--
Carmen Bianca Bakker <[hidden email]>
PGP: 2A09 F627 39F6 DEC8 CFFC  A216 CD0A 90F1 C5CA 0C92

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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Brian K. White
On 7/20/2017 6:33 PM, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:

> On Friday, 21 July 2017 00:10:26 CEST Brian K. White wrote:
>> On 7/20/2017 4:51 PM, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
>>> Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to provide
>>
>> Please, please stop trying to tell other people what to talk about.
>
> Surely you see the irony in that statement.
>
>> discussion is neither off-topic, nor spam, nor personal attacks,
>> therefor, you are out of line.
>
> This is a user support mailing list, not mailing list for technical/
> ideological debates.  It is incredibly off-topic.  Try opensuse-project for
> discussions or opensuse-factory for contributions towards making openSUSE
> systemd-indepedent.
>

It's only and exactly as off-topic as your own post about other people
talking is. I think you somehow missed the very irony you tried to
allude to.

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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink
On 2017-07-20 21:47, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
> Top posting to save others from scrolling.
>
> Please stop. I've always valued having an [hidden email] ML, but this
> is going nowhere. Without reading the entire 2 miles you''re posting today,
> this is not what the [hidden email] ML is for. It is not your personal
> ML. It's there to offer support. People are refusing to use this list, for
> &*^& sake.  

Please you stop.
You haven't even read her post.
She is a valued member of the openSUSE community, and she has something
to say, even if you don't agree. And I'm not saying if I agree or not.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Basil Chupin-2
On 21/07/17 10:11, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2017-07-20 21:47, Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink wrote:
>> Top posting to save others from scrolling.
>>
>> Please stop. I've always valued having an [hidden email] ML, but this
>> is going nowhere. Without reading the entire 2 miles you''re posting today,
>> this is not what the [hidden email] ML is for. It is not your personal
>> ML. It's there to offer support. People are refusing to use this list, for
>> &*^& sake.  
> Please you stop.
> You haven't even read her post.
> She is a valued member of the openSUSE community, and she has something
> to say, even if you don't agree. And I'm not saying if I agree or not.

Actually, I went to the Wiki to see if something had changed since I
last read the _Mailing List Netiquette_
(https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette) and found
that my memory was still up to scratch after all these years :-).

What I thought had changed is still there:

/quote

2. Quoting and Answering

2.1 How much should I quote?

It is not necessary to quote the entire text of the person you respond
to. A quoting should always and first of all clarify the context,
enabling the reader to understand the flow of the thread. A quoting is
not ment to re-post the previous article.


/unquote


BC


--
You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your
INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant.
                                                Harlan Ellison


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by Carmen Bianca Bakker
On 21/07/17 06:51, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
> Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to provide
> support for people wherever/whenever I am capable, not to filter through
> drama.
>
> I am sure that you raise valid points, and I am certain that so does Richard,
> but I've really had it with these endless back-and-forths.
>
> Best regards,
> Carmen

Hi Carmen,

I don't know which mail client you are using (the Header to your post
does not contain this information) but you have at least two options to
use when you are unhappy about what you see in this or any other mail
list: 1) simply do not read the thread, skip it, and go on to read some
other thread; and 2) if there is someone who keeps disapppointing you re
what you like to read then use the message filter of your mail client
and send posts by that person to the bit-bucket :-).

Occasionally there are matters which just need to be said and some steam
released via a safety valve but which may not be to your or others'
liking -- and it would seem that this thread, and its parent, are one of
those occasions :-).


BC

--
You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your
INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant.
                                                Harlan Ellison


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On 21/07/17 06:52, Brian K. White wrote:

> On 7/20/2017 3:06 PM, L A Walsh wrote:
>> FWIW, Responding to notes like these takes time -- days for
>> a first draft (over 2 days for this one).  Most of my notes
>> take time for anything but simple answers as I too often
>> need to spend time looking things up.  Even after writing
>> a note there are many times I don't think it is good enough
>> or worthwhile enough to send and end saying nothing and
>> only wasting hours or days of composition.  sigh.
>
> That definitely seems to be a factor, that someone who does not invest
> much thought in their posts does not properly interpret that someone
> else might have.
>
> IE: Not all statements are equal. One person might say something after
> 45 minutes of research and on the spot testing and checking
> assumptions, and then someone else hearing it will disregard it
> lightly, because they themselves never do that. Their own statements
> are mere opinion, so they perceive and treat all other statements as
> equally insubstantial.
>
> I naively keep thinking that there's really nothing you can do except
> keep on making sure your own statements hold water, so that ultimately
> the record can always shake out the truth. But in reality that doesn't
> usually happen. A tide of opinion can often totally override and
> ignore facts and robust reasoning. No one reads through a thread from
> the beginning to see if there is a pattern to show who deserves to be
> believed and who doesn't.
>
> Sometimes I try to ask things as questions, to force people to realize
> for themselves that they can't answer the question, other than by
> saying what I would have said. The idea being that you can't simply
> tell some people anything, regardless if it's a true fact or if it's a
> sequence of reasoning that holds water. But if they arrive at the
> truth themselves by trying to answer a question, then they can't very
> well simply ignore it because they ignore everything from a source
> they don't like. Even this very often doesn't work. At that point the
> topic is exposed as religion, and there is nothing you can do about
> someone who is religious on a topic. They will in fact accuse you of
> the same thing, whether that accusation has any basis or not. It's
> like mere namecalling instead of an actual set of words with an actual
> meaning. There's nothing you can do about that either.

Now, even I, who is pretty flexible about most things, consider the
above as something which does not belong in this mail list but
definitely should have been sent to Linda ONLY as a private message.

BC

--
You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your
INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant.
                                                Harlan Ellison


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Billie Walsh
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
On 07/21/2017 04:53 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
> 1) simply do not read the thread, skip it, and go on to read some
> other thread;

To add to what Basil said; there is a <Delete> button on every mail
client I have ever seen. One that I use a lot. Threads I have no
interest in I just <Delete> as I read the subject line.

--
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes-and ships-and sealing-wax-
Of cabbages-and kings--
And why the sea is boiling hot-
And whether pigs have wings."
Lewis Carroll

_ _...  ..._ _
_._  ._  .....  ._..  ...  .._


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Carlos E. R.-2
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
On 2017-07-21 11:53, Basil Chupin wrote:

> On 21/07/17 06:51, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
>> Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to provide
>> support for people wherever/whenever I am capable, not to filter through
>> drama.
>>
>> I am sure that you raise valid points, and I am certain that so does Richard,
>> but I've really had it with these endless back-and-forths.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Carmen
>
> Hi Carmen,
>
> I don't know which mail client you are using (the Header to your post
> does not contain this information) but you have at least two options to
> use when you are unhappy about what you see in this or any other mail
> list: 1) simply do not read the thread, skip it, and go on to read some
> other thread; and 2) if there is someone who keeps disapppointing you re
> what you like to read then use the message filter of your mail client
> and send posts by that person to the bit-bucket :-).
In Thunderbird, just use "k" or "K" to kill the entire thread or
subthread as wished.

--
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 42.2 x86_64 "Malachite" at Telcontar)


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Knurpht - Gertjan Lettink
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
Op vrijdag 21 juli 2017 13:11:14 CEST schreef Billie Walsh:
> On 07/21/2017 04:53 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
> > 1) simply do not read the thread, skip it, and go on to read some
> > other thread;
>
> To add to what Basil said; there is a <Delete> button on every mail
> client I have ever seen. One that I use a lot. Threads I have no
> interest in I just <Delete> as I read the subject line.

That's not stopping the appearance of these threads on the ML archives, which
are available through lists.opensuse.org .

--
Gertjan Lettink, a.k.a. Knurpht

openSUSE Board Member
openSUSE Forums Team

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Re: Delete unwanted Email//Etiquette

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Billie Walsh
On 21/07/17 07:11 AM, Billie Walsh wrote:
> On 07/21/2017 04:53 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
>> 1) simply do not read the thread, skip it, and go on to read some
>> other thread;
>
> To add to what Basil said; there is a <Delete> button on every mail client I
> have ever seen. One that I use a lot. Threads I have no interest in I just
> <Delete> as I read the subject line.
>

Just so!
One of the problems of manu UIs is that you get everything whether you want it
or not.

I use a remote server and IMAP.  I simply access the message metadata, the date,
author and subject and thread information.  Minimal bandwidth.

You can achieve this with most webmail systems if you set them up correctly - if
you take the time to find out how and make the effort to configure then that
way.  You can also, while about it, configure the UI to not top post and not to
quite the whole message to which you are replying.



--
         A: Yes.
     >   Q: Are you sure?
     >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
     >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?


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Re: On Email Etiquette Failure

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
On 21/07/17 05:37 AM, Basil Chupin wrote:
> What I thought had changed is still there:

+1

I am of the opinion that the awful UI we get with the Gmail interface on mobile
devices and its web interface, as well as various other webmail interfaces,
'hides' the previous message so that the author is unaware that the whole thing
is being included.

Many of these awful email UIs also default to top posting.

There's a saying that ignorance of the law is not excuse.
That may have been true in simpler times :-)
I think there's a corollary about technology.
Microsoft and others have made a practice of dumbing down users, 'learned
disability'.  We occasionally see it here with people migrating from Windows.

How can anyone encountering a new app for the first time NOT take a walk though
the menu bar to see what's there, to see what the 'settings' options are?

But we get that.
More to the point, when people still contacted me about help with computers and
I suggested that they do this, that they take an initiative, they took offence
that I wasn't telling them in detail what to click on.

We're now seeing that with a wider group.
I'm encountering people who should know better, who have been using computers
for decades, but now use Gmail on their phones, and succumb to the violation of
this simple piece of etiquette.

Yes, Basil, but I think we're fighting a loosing game.

--
         A: Yes.
     >   Q: Are you sure?
     >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
     >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Istvan Gabor-3
In reply to this post by Carmen Bianca Bakker
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 22:51:38 +0200, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
> Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to
> provide
> support for people wherever/whenever I am capable, not to filter
> through
> drama.
>
> I am sure that you raise valid points, and I am certain that so does
> Richard,
> but I've really had it with these endless back-and-forths.

No one, including you, is obligated to read messages not interested in.
Why don't you simply skip reading these and let us, who interested,
alone.

Istvan


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
On 21/07/17 21:27, Carlos E. R. wrote:

> On 2017-07-21 11:53, Basil Chupin wrote:
>> On 21/07/17 06:51, Carmen Bianca Bakker wrote:
>>> Please, please discuss this elsewhere.  I am reading this list to provide
>>> support for people wherever/whenever I am capable, not to filter through
>>> drama.
>>>
>>> I am sure that you raise valid points, and I am certain that so does Richard,
>>> but I've really had it with these endless back-and-forths.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Carmen
>> Hi Carmen,
>>
>> I don't know which mail client you are using (the Header to your post
>> does not contain this information) but you have at least two options to
>> use when you are unhappy about what you see in this or any other mail
>> list: 1) simply do not read the thread, skip it, and go on to read some
>> other thread; and 2) if there is someone who keeps disapppointing you re
>> what you like to read then use the message filter of your mail client
>> and send posts by that person to the bit-bucket :-).
> In Thunderbird, just use "k" or "K" to kill the entire thread or
> subthread as wished.

Actually, there is one better if you are using Thunderbird: right-click
on a thread and select Ignore Thread. Simple, yes? :-)

And then you also have (on the top taskbar) under View>Threads you have
more options to play around with. Darn good mail client, Thunderbird! :-).


BC

--
You are NOT entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your
INFORMED opinion. Nobody is entitled to be ignorant.
                                                Harlan Ellison


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Re: Community? Discussions? etc..

Anton Aylward-2
On 21/07/17 11:32 PM, Basil Chupin wrote:
> Actually, there is one better if you are using Thunderbird: right-click
> on a thread and select Ignore Thread. Simple, yes? :-)
>
> And then you also have (on the top taskbar) under View>Threads you have
> more options to play around with. Darn good mail client, Thunderbird! :-).

+1

Thunderbird has a few other advantages, being highly configurable, if you are
willing to take the time and effort to step though the menu items and options.

it can be set up to bottom-post replies as default.

It can also do what I've just done here, what I usually do.
You use the mouse to highlight the areas of the parts of the message you want to
reply to so that you don't have to include the whole thing, only replying, as
the etiquette guidelines suggest, to the relevant parts.

Failing that, the default editor makes it easy to delete the TL;DR parts with a
mouse-swipe.

If you are really really really bothered by the embedded editor then there is a
plugin that lets you use an external editor of your choice, VIM, GVIM, EMACS,
PICO, whatever.

Basic rightly points out failing to place a tight focus, to leave extraneous
stuff around in your replies making it a TL;DR or simply and awkward to read or
awkward to follow the chain of discussion is a communication failure that can
easily be rectified.

Probably the best technology feature, available in Thunderbird as well as every
other mail reader, is, as basic says, the delete button.  It also seems to be
the least used.

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         A: Yes.
     >   Q: Are you sure?
     >>  A: Because it reverses the logical flow of conversation.
     >>> Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?


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