Chit chat: "Please"

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Chit chat: "Please"

Carlos E. R.-3
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Hi,

I'm having a go at several yast files, and I find one curious thing: many
of the the strings that have been modified, has been to remove the
"please" in the sentences. And in several files.

Some rule has been defined where "please" is not nice anymore? >;-)

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                 Carlos E. R.
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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Freek de Kruijf-2
On vrijdag 6 april 2012 04:20:48 Carlos E. R. wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm having a go at several yast files, and I find one curious thing: many
> of the the strings that have been modified, has been to remove the
> "please" in the sentences. And in several files.
>
> Some rule has been defined where "please" is not nice anymore? >;-)

In Dutch, we leave out the please already for a long time and the really for
that matter. But that's our culture. So if you want something there, add it or
leave it out.

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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Alexander Melentev
2012/4/6 Freek de Kruijf <[hidden email]>:
> In Dutch, we leave out the please already for a long time and the really for
> that matter. But that's our culture. So if you want something there, add it or
> leave it out.
Agreed. The word "please" is not commonly used in russian tech docs
either, so the rule was defined not to write it in translated strings.
And because of that I only had to approve such fuzzy strings in most
cases. =)
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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Carlos E. R.-2
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On 2012-04-06 08:59, Alexander Melentyev wrote:
> 2012/4/6 Freek de Kruijf <[hidden email]>:
>> In Dutch, we leave out the please already for a long time and the really for
>> that matter. But that's our culture. So if you want something there, add it or
>> leave it out.
> Agreed. The word "please" is not commonly used in russian tech docs
> either, so the rule was defined not to write it in translated strings.
> And because of that I only had to approve such fuzzy strings in most
> cases. =)

Yes, in Spanish we don't use it either, so the translations do not change.
But that was not why I mentioned the change, but why change it at all in
English. Has the customary "please" been pushed out of fashion in English
speaking countries, or perhaps in some? Has SUSE made a policy telling
their programmers to review their software not to say "please"? It is
curious so many programs being modified to remove the wording.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)
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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Guillaume Gardet
Hi,

Le 06/04/2012 14:48, Carlos E. R. a écrit :

> On 2012-04-06 08:59, Alexander Melentyev wrote:
> > 2012/4/6 Freek de Kruijf <[hidden email]>:
> >> In Dutch, we leave out the please already for a long time and the really for
> >> that matter. But that's our culture. So if you want something there, add it or
> >> leave it out.
> > Agreed. The word "please" is not commonly used in russian tech docs
> > either, so the rule was defined not to write it in translated strings.
> > And because of that I only had to approve such fuzzy strings in most
> > cases. =)
>
> Yes, in Spanish we don't use it either, so the translations do not change.
> But that was not why I mentioned the change, but why change it at all in
> English. Has the customary "please" been pushed out of fashion in English
> speaking countries, or perhaps in some? Has SUSE made a policy telling
> their programmers to review their software not to say "please"? It is
> curious so many programs being modified to remove the wording.
>

I think they want to unify strings. You reported "please" but I saw similar things like add or remove a dot at the end of a sentence, etc.
Lots of fuzzy for translators but quiclky fixed! And it should be better in the user interface once done.

Guillaume

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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Jiri Suchomel
In reply to this post by Carlos E. R.-2
Dne Pá 6. dubna 2012 14:48:15, Carlos E. R. napsal(a):

> Yes, in Spanish we don't use it either, so the translations do not change.
> But that was not why I mentioned the change, but why change it at all in
> English. Has the customary "please" been pushed out of fashion in English
> speaking countries, or perhaps in some? Has SUSE made a policy telling
> their programmers to review their software not to say "please"? It is
> curious so many programs being modified to remove the wording.

Yes, we are removing 'please' on purpose - and this is actually nothing new,
it's been years already.

The reasoning is something like, 'it does not fit into technical style of
documentation'. It is of course nothing like we do not want to be polite.

But I'm just a developer - Karl should know more, I guess.

Jiri

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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Karl Eichwalder
In reply to this post by Guillaume Gardet
Guillaume Gardet <[hidden email]> writes:

> I think they want to unify strings. You reported "please" but I saw
> similar things like add or remove a dot at the end of a sentence, etc.
> Lots of fuzzy for translators but quiclky fixed! And it should be
> better in the user interface once done.

Yes, that's the main motivation.


Jiri Suchomel <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, we are removing 'please' on purpose - and this is actually nothing new,
> it's been years already.

> The reasoning is something like, 'it does not fit into technical style of
> documentation'. It is of course nothing like we do not want to be polite.

Yes, that's it.  Background info: Quite some time ago, we lost our official
proofreader ;-( and new developers joined (which is a good thing) and
thus some basic info about writing good software texts got lost.

Using "please" is just annoying to the user.  The shorter the texts, the
better.  Of course, the text must be long enough that an international
reader can easily understand the English version.

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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Carlos E. R.-2
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On 2012-04-11 10:51, Karl Eichwalder wrote:

> Yes, that's it.  Background info: Quite some time ago, we lost our official
> proofreader ;-( and new developers joined (which is a good thing) and
> thus some basic info about writing good software texts got lost.

Yes, I thought you would have a style guide of some sort, and that it changed.

By the way, having a proofreader read the .pot files is a way to detect
typos and errors fast.


> Using "please" is just annoying to the user.  The shorter the texts, the
> better.  Of course, the text must be long enough that an international
> reader can easily understand the English version.

Annoying? It did not annoy me, I liked it. So "British" - at least the type
of British we are taught in language schools :-)


Some strings told to wait and have been removed. On a fast machine the wait
might be inexistent, on others you do have to wait. If there is no warning
about waiting, the user might be tempted to kill.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)
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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Karl Eichwalder
"Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]> writes:

> Yes, I thought you would have a style guide of some sort, and that it changed.

Yes, there is a style guide, but the "please" issue was never explicitly
noted.

> By the way, having a proofreader read the .pot files is a way to detect
> typos and errors fast.

Yes, the proofreader always works on .pot files.

> Annoying? It did not annoy me, I liked it. So "British" - at least the type
> of British we are taught in language schools :-)

Yes, but it is a difference whether you as a human talk to human
beings.  The computer is not expected to behave like a human being ;)

> Some strings told to wait and have been removed. On a fast machine the wait
> might be inexistent, on others you do have to wait. If there is no warning
> about waiting, the user might be tempted to kill.

Yes, these advises to wait do not actually help.  It it enough to state
things such as "This action may take a while."  or better tell something
about what is actually going on and provide a good progress meter (oaf
course, sometime that's rather difficult).

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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Carlos E. R.-2
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On 2012-04-11 17:14, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>> Annoying? It did not annoy me, I liked it. So "British" - at least the type
>> of British we are taught in language schools :-)
> Yes, but it is a difference whether you as a human talk to human
> beings.  The computer is not expected to behave like a human being ;)
>

Did you talk to Eliza? ;-)

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)
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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Karl Eichwalder
"Carlos E. R." <[hidden email]> writes:

> On 2012-04-11 17:14, Karl Eichwalder wrote:
>>> Annoying? It did not annoy me, I liked it. So "British" - at least the type
>>> of British we are taught in language schools :-)
>> Yes, but it is a difference whether you as a human talk to human
>> beings.  The computer is not expected to behave like a human being ;)
>>
>
> Did you talk to Eliza? ;-)

Why did you think that I talked to Eliza? ;)

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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Michael Skiba-2
Am Donnerstag, 12. April 2012, 10:30:03 schrieb Karl Eichwalder:
> >> Yes, but it is a difference whether you as a human talk to human
> >> beings.  The computer is not expected to behave like a human being ;)
> >
> > Did you talk to Eliza? ;-)
>
> Why did you think that I talked to Eliza? ;)

Who hasn't talked to Eliza? ;-)  (the bot that tries to convince you, you're
talking to a human)



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Re: Chit chat: "Please"

Carlos E. R.-2
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On 2012-04-12 10:48, Michael Skiba wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 12. April 2012, 10:30:03 schrieb Karl Eichwalder:
>>>> Yes, but it is a difference whether you as a human talk to human
>>>> beings.  The computer is not expected to behave like a human being ;)
>>>
>>> Did you talk to Eliza? ;-)
>>
>> Why did you think that I talked to Eliza? ;)

ROTFL!

> Who hasn't talked to Eliza? ;-)  (the bot that tries to convince you, you're
> talking to a human)

What it amazed me was how simple the code was. IIRC, a friend of mine did
it on a casio fx-850p calculator, or in a a sinclair zx80 or a spectrum, I
forget which.

- --
Cheers / Saludos,

                Carlos E. R.
                (from 11.4 x86_64 "Celadon" at Telcontar)
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