Can I ask something...?

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Can I ask something...?

Linux Tyro
Hi,

Yes,  I am very new here and beginner in Linux too. Can I suggest/ask
something regarding openSUSE...? I consider it good to ask first for
it since openSUSE says it is an open project, so I am asking.

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Robert Schweikert-6


On 10/28/2011 11:29 AM, Linux Tyro wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Yes,  I am very new here and beginner in Linux too. Can I suggest/ask
> something regarding openSUSE...? I consider it good to ask first for
> it since openSUSE says it is an open project, so I am asking.

Well,

Welcome to openSUSE.

We have some general guidlines about mailing list posts at:
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Mailing_list_netiquette

This might help you to get a feel for how things work on our mailing lists.

Generally, and this applies to IRC as well, do not ask to ask. Rather,
just send your question (with reasonably appropriate subject line) to
the list.

HTH,
Robert

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Linux Tyro
On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Robert Schweikert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Welcome to openSUSE.

Thanks.

> do not ask to ask. Rather, just
> send your question (with reasonably appropriate subject line) to the list.

ok. Well, I just wanted to ask if the new release period could be
increased (just a suggestion) from 8 months to something like a year,
so that we (not from technical side) can all have a good grasp at the
OS/distro, can know something about it before any new thing come into
picture... However, it's just a question of 'if' this is a possibility
or not...!

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Re: [open OFF LIST suse] Can I ask something...?

Linux Tyro
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro
On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:10 PM, Anton Aylward
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Is is advisable to Google

Of course, that is correct but what I have heard is that openSUSE
mailing list is one of the most supporting mailing lists.

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Togan Muftuoglu-3
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro
On 10/28/2011 06:42 PM, Linux Tyro wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Robert Schweikert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ok. Well, I just wanted to ask if the new release period could be
> increased (just a suggestion) from 8 months to something like a year,
> so that we (not from technical side) can all have a good grasp at the
> OS/distro, can know something about it before any new thing come into
> picture... However, it's just a question of 'if' this is a possibility
> or not...!

Upgrade is not obligatory, I am running versions back to 11.1 on a daily
basis and some of the are web and mail servers. So you do not have to
update to the new version every 8 months or so

life is endless possibilities and then there is the freedom of choosing

Togan

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Re: Can I ask something...?

jdd@dodin.org
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro
Le 28/10/2011 18:42, Linux Tyro a écrit :

> ok. Well, I just wanted to ask if the new release period could be
> increased

the release period do not mean you have to use the new distro,
openSUSE is suppored at least for 18 month (two release + 2 month).

Of course, everybody here is very excited by the new baby, but one can
without problem use a ditro for about two years.

Welcopme to openSUSE :-))

jdd

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Robert Schweikert-6
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro


On 10/28/2011 12:42 PM, Linux Tyro wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Robert Schweikert<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>> Welcome to openSUSE.
>
> Thanks.
>
>> do not ask to ask. Rather, just
>> send your question (with reasonably appropriate subject line) to the list.
>
> ok. Well, I just wanted to ask if the new release period could be
> increased (just a suggestion) from 8 months to something like a year,
> so that we (not from technical side) can all have a good grasp at the
> OS/distro, can know something about it before any new thing come into
> picture...

Well, I am not sure where you are going with this. However, whatever the
release schedule is, there is always the same "problem" someone will
always need more time for something. This would mean that there is never
a release. That's of course not very helpful.

In addition you can take as long as you want, just because a new release
is available that doesn't mean you have to upgrade to it right away. The
current release will still be active for quite a while.


> However, it's just a question of 'if' this is a possibility
> or not...!
>

The release schedule will not change at this point in time, we just
switched to the 8 month schedule not too long ago and so far this
appears to be working for us.

Also this is a question that would be better suited for the
opensuse-project list.

HTH,
Robert

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Re: Can I ask something...?

John Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro
On 10/28/2011 9:42 AM, Linux Tyro wrote:
>   Well, I just wanted to ask if the new release period could be
> increased (just a suggestion) from 8 months to something like a year,

If you lobbied for a longer support cycle, I'd be right there in your corner.

Release intervals are not so important, they can be more frequent. My only complaint
about them is the suck up maintainer resources that could (IMHO) be more valuable
if applied to longer release maintenance period.

But everybody wants a new toy.  Not so much for servers.

I have a 10.2 server that needs to be upgraded, because even security patches
are no longer available for it, and haven't been for some time. It was
installed in late 2006. With critical updates for two years from the release date.
So before 2009 arrived, my server has already been out of maintenance, and there
are known security issues with this old release.  (I know, I failed a penetration
test thru no fault of configuration).

When I upgrade, I have to look seriously at Ubuntu Server with Long Term
Support, or a rolling release.



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Re: Can I ask something...?

jdd@dodin.org
Le 28/10/2011 20:12, John Andersen a écrit :

> I have a 10.2 server that needs to be upgraded, because even security

thus you should support Evergreen, the long term support of openSUSE
(still experimental)

jdd

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Re: Can I ask something...?

John Andersen-2
On 10/28/2011 11:21 AM, jdd wrote:
> Le 28/10/2011 20:12, John Andersen a �crit :
>
>> I have a 10.2 server that needs to be upgraded, because even security
>
> thus you should support Evergreen, the long term support of openSUSE (still experimental)
>
> jdd
>

Exactly my thinking with regard to a rolling release as my next server installation.


I would rather it had a name like "Bullet Proof" than "evergreen", the latter suggest
immature to the english speaker, or at least the paranoid english speaker.  ;-)

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Re: Can I ask something...?

jdd@dodin.org
Le 28/10/2011 20:26, John Andersen a écrit :

> Exactly my thinking with regard to a rolling release as my next server
> installation.

this is not a rolling release, at least like openSUSE understand it
(the rr is tumbleweed)

>
>
> I would rather it had a name like "Bullet Proof" than "evergreen", the
> latter suggest
> immature to the english speaker, or at least the paranoid english
> speaker. ;-)
>

not being (native) english speaker, I don't know.

for openSUSE, Evergreen is a personal server release. Professinal need
SLES (Enterprise Server), with 7 years professional support

Evergreen is a continued support that was at first proposed for
personal server users. It's goal is (was) to support  11.1 basics.

Due to practical problems (I couldn't keep my 11.1 server) I didn't
follow it closely.

The goal is to have support for what makes a server live: basics
(kernel...) and server daemons (ssh, apache;..)

But I'm pretty sure Evergreen needs badly more team members :-(

jdd

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Adam Tauno Williams
In reply to this post by Togan Muftuoglu-3
On Fri, 2011-10-28 at 18:50 +0200, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
> On 10/28/2011 06:42 PM, Linux Tyro wrote:
> > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Robert Schweikert <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ok. Well, I just wanted to ask if the new release period could be
> > increased (just a suggestion) from 8 months to something like a year,
> > so that we (not from technical side) can all have a good grasp at the
> > OS/distro, can know something about it before any new thing come into
> > picture... However, it's just a question of 'if' this is a possibility
> > or not...!
> Upgrade is not obligatory,

+1  I'm probably considered a very technical user - and I don't upgrade
right away [I have work to do!]

Of course you want to upgrade eventually.  But waiting a few months is
certainly reasonable.  Previous versions will continue to receive
important updates for awhile.

>  I am running versions back to 11.1 on a daily
> basis and some of the are web and mail servers. So you do not have to
> update to the new version every 8 months or so


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Re: Can I ask something...?

Felix Miata-3
In reply to this post by John Andersen-2
On 2011/10/28 14:26 (GMT-0400) John Andersen composed:

> I would rather it had a name like "Bullet Proof" than "evergreen", the latter suggest
> immature to the english speaker, or at least the paranoid english speaker.  ;-)

Dunno who taught you your English, but it's my only language, and to me
evergreen means perennially green and _live_, like such coniferous trees as
pine, sequoia, cypress & fir. Evergreen seems like an apt name for a LTS
distro to me.
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  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Brian K. White
In reply to this post by Togan Muftuoglu-3
On 10/28/2011 12:50 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:

> On 10/28/2011 06:42 PM, Linux Tyro wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Robert Schweikert<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>> ok. Well, I just wanted to ask if the new release period could be
>> increased (just a suggestion) from 8 months to something like a year,
>> so that we (not from technical side) can all have a good grasp at the
>> OS/distro, can know something about it before any new thing come into
>> picture... However, it's just a question of 'if' this is a possibility
>> or not...!
>
> Upgrade is not obligatory, I am running versions back to 11.1 on a daily
> basis and some of the are web and mail servers. So you do not have to
> update to the new version every 8 months or so
>
> life is endless possibilities and then there is the freedom of choosing
>
> Togan
>

Then again I just spent a few days fighting with some hackers script
that somehow manages to get _ROOT ACCESS_ to a few of my opensuse 11.2
machines, du apparently to a weakness in openssh.

I had done everything but shut off sshd entirely, sinec i need it
myself, but I had disallowed root access, I had deleted all ssh keys and
changed the password, and still they got in. Lucky for me it was just a
script that only wanted to do one thing, execute perl and suck down a
perl script to generate spam. It was running perl, as root, it could
have done _anything_.

I captured forensic data by replacing the perl binary with a shell
script that copied the environment and stdin to unique files and then
ran the real perl binary and that's the only way I was able to see what
perl script was being run. It never used a temp file, just received
everything from stdin.

I could have firewalled the IP, but there were multiple IP's and I know
with scripts like these, there would be many other possible IP's where
the same form of attack would come from.

My only way to save this server, and still have ssh, was to upgrade ssh
to the latest version, or at least whatever version fixed whatever
weakness this script was exploiting. I only know that upgrading to
latest stopped him cold.

You can only do that for just so long after the distro goes off the back
end of the support time frame.

Luckily this was a 11.2 box, and luckily in this case I already knew
from prior testing on other boxes that it would be ok to just change all
the zypper repos from 11.2 repos (I maintain my own mirrors indefinitely
after they disappear from suse's mirrors) to 11.3 repos, and add the
current openssh devel repo from OBS, and then update openssh from that,
and it pulled in a few other updates from the 11.3 repos and luckily
doesn't screw up the rest of the system.

If a box is connected to the internet, you can't actually afford to just
let it get old.

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Brian K. White
On 10/28/2011 6:01 PM, Brian K. White wrote:

> On 10/28/2011 12:50 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
>> On 10/28/2011 06:42 PM, Linux Tyro wrote:
>>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Robert Schweikert<[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> ok. Well, I just wanted to ask if the new release period could be
>>> increased (just a suggestion) from 8 months to something like a year,
>>> so that we (not from technical side) can all have a good grasp at the
>>> OS/distro, can know something about it before any new thing come into
>>> picture... However, it's just a question of 'if' this is a possibility
>>> or not...!
>>
>> Upgrade is not obligatory, I am running versions back to 11.1 on a daily
>> basis and some of the are web and mail servers. So you do not have to
>> update to the new version every 8 months or so
>>
>> life is endless possibilities and then there is the freedom of choosing
>>
>> Togan
>>
>
> Then again I just spent a few days fighting with some hackers script
> that somehow manages to get _ROOT ACCESS_ to a few of my opensuse 11.2
> machines, du apparently to a weakness in openssh.
>
> I had done everything but shut off sshd entirely, sinec i need it
> myself, but I had disallowed root access, I had deleted all ssh keys and
> changed the password, and still they got in. Lucky for me it was just a
> script that only wanted to do one thing, execute perl and suck down a
> perl script to generate spam. It was running perl, as root, it could
> have done _anything_.
>
> I captured forensic data by replacing the perl binary with a shell
> script

I'm sorry I just realized I kind of skipped a little background there, I
did know from info in /proc that the hacker process was running perl,
and that it was launched from a shell that was provided by sshd. Further
investigation and eventual solution confirmed that multiple ways.

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Ricardo Chung
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
On Friday, October 28, 2011 05:17:24 PM Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2011/10/28 14:26 (GMT-0400) John Andersen composed:
> > I would rather it had a name like "Bullet Proof" than "evergreen", the
> > latter suggest immature to the english speaker, or at least the
> > paranoid english speaker.  ;-)
> Dunno who taught you your English, but it's my only language, and to me
> evergreen means perennially green and _live_, like such coniferous trees as
> pine, sequoia, cypress & fir. Evergreen seems like an apt name for a LTS
> distro to me.

Exactly, that was the Evergreen spirit at early discussions on Mailing List.
And AFAIK the experimental stage would be superseded if support is achieved by
community and enough developers step in.

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Re: Can I ask something...?

John Andersen-2
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On 10/28/2011 3:01 PM, Brian K. White wrote:
> My only way to save this server, and still have ssh, was to upgrade ssh to the latest version, or at least whatever version fixed whatever
> weakness this script was exploiting. I only know that upgrading to latest stopped him cold.
>
> You can only do that for just so long after the distro goes off the back end of the support time frame.

Exactly the situation I had, except they were exploiting a known SSL weakness.
You really are forced to upgrade shortly after support ends.

And if you could simply do that it would be great, but in most cases less than
half of the services I run upgrade smoothly, and I need to fiddle for weeks getting
things going again the way I like them.  In fact I've been burned on upgrades
so often I never even attempt it any more on things that matter.




I understand that the owners of OpenSuse what us to buy SLES.
But the purchase price and subscription fees pretty steep for some of
us.

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Re: Can I ask something...?

Rodney Baker-2
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-3
On Sat, 29 Oct 2011 07:47:24 Felix Miata wrote:
> On 2011/10/28 14:26 (GMT-0400) John Andersen composed:
> > I would rather it had a name like "Bullet Proof" than "evergreen", the
> > latter suggest immature to the english speaker, or at least the paranoid
> > english speaker.  ;-)
>
> Dunno who taught you your English, but it's my only language, and to me
> evergreen means perennially green and _live_, like such coniferous trees as
> pine, sequoia, cypress & fir. Evergreen seems like an apt name for a LTS
> distro to me.

You're right, but I think you missed the pun - ever=always,
green=immature/inexperienced. :-)


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Re: Can I ask something...?

Togan Muftuoglu-3
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
On 10/29/2011 12:01 AM, Brian K. White wrote:
> On 10/28/2011 12:50 PM, Togan Muftuoglu wrote:
>>
>> Upgrade is not obligatory, I am running versions back to 11.1 on a daily
>> basis and some of the are web and mail servers. So you do not have to
>> update to the new version every 8 months or so
>>
>> life is endless possibilities and then there is the freedom of choosing
>>


>
> I had done everything but shut off sshd entirely, sinec i need it
> myself, but I had disallowed root access, I had deleted all ssh keys and
> changed the password, and still they got in. Lucky for me it was just a
> script that only wanted to do one thing, execute perl and suck down a
> perl script to generate spam. It was running perl, as root, it could
> have done _anything_.

Lockdown all first and then let it is my approach. None of my servers
have root enabled for sssh and only allowed groups can log in


>
> You can only do that for just so long after the distro goes off the back
> end of the support time frame.

True and they eventually get upgraded but not immediately. My experince
with SuSE and openSUSE has been wait like 6 months after a release so it
polishes itself and start the upgrade based on mission of the server


> Luckily this was a 11.2 box, and luckily in this case I already knew
> from prior testing on other boxes that it would be ok to just change all
> the zypper repos from 11.2 repos (I maintain my own mirrors indefinitely
> after they disappear from suse's mirrors) to 11.3 repos, and add the
> current openssh devel repo from OBS, and then update openssh from that,
> and it pulled in a few other updates from the 11.3 repos and luckily
> doesn't screw up the rest of the system.

Same except the mirroring part I use OBS and maintain the software as
necessary


>
> If a box is connected to the internet, you can't actually afford to just
> let it get old.

That is true and hence there is evergreen as geriatrics service ;)

Togan


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Re: Can I ask something...?

jdd@dodin.org
In reply to this post by Brian K. White
Le 29/10/2011 00:01, Brian K. White a écrit :

> Then again I just spent a few days fighting with some hackers script

very interesting report, thanks
jdd


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