Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

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Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Max Lin
Hi everybody,

Since openSUSE 12.2 already released, openSUSE Team now move our eyes to openSUSE conference - osc'12.

The call for paper(http://conference.opensuse.org/Call-for-papers/) is closed, also the sessions are decided and
scheduled, you can check it on http://bootstrapping-awesome.org/schedule/. openSUSE conference will have
participants from all over the world, we prepared an program announcement and we looking for somebody help
us translation of the program announcement in the different languages, if you willing do this task, started from
http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Conference_Program_announcement would be good!

Thanks for your contribution to keep openSUSE grow up!


Best regards,
Max
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Re: [opensuse-project] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Jan Engelhardt-4
On Tuesday 2012-09-11 06:17, Max Lin wrote:

>we prepared an program announcement and we looking for somebody help us
>translation of the program announcement in the different languages, if
>you willing do this task, started from
>http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Conference_Program_announcement would
>be good!

Where to post the result? A subpage maybe?

http://en.opensuse.org
      /openSUSE:Conference_Program_announcement
      /XX

[xx = ISO-639 code]
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Re: [opensuse-project] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Max Lin
Hi Jan,

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 06:52:33 AM Jan Engelhardt wrote:

> On Tuesday 2012-09-11 06:17, Max Lin wrote:
>
> >we prepared an program announcement and we looking for somebody help us
> >translation of the program announcement in the different languages, if
> >you willing do this task, started from
> >http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Conference_Program_announcement would
> >be good!
>
> Where to post the result? A subpage maybe?
>
> http://en.opensuse.org
>       /openSUSE:Conference_Program_announcement
>       /XX
>
> [xx = ISO-639 code]

In my experience, it should be http://{XX}.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Conference_Program_announcement ,
ex. de.opensuse.org, pt.opensuse.org, fr.opensuse.org, etc. You can found a example in
http://en.opensuse.org/Release_announcement , there has different languages link at the left side and
almost point to XX.opensuse.org/{Page_Name}


Cheers,
Max
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Re: [opensuse-marketing] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Tony Su
In reply to this post by Max Lin
Re: translation,

Highly recommend posting machine-translated copy using either Google
Translate(http://translate.google.com/) or Microsoft
Translate(http://www.bing.com/translator)

Both are free and only take seconds then ask for a native speaker
review to clean up any idioms and colloquials.

Small tidbit of info,
Google's tool supports many more languages, but if you're only
interested in the top 6-10 languages there shouldn't be much
difference in language choices (actually MS supports about 30
languages, Google supports over 60).

I've found accuracy for both about equal despite the different method
each supposedly uses... Google is supposed to be based on massively
large collections of data whereas Microsoft is supposed to be based on
less data but attempts to apply some linguistic syntax.

BTW - I've offered, but haven't yet received a positive answer, I've
offered to build integrated translation services into many parts of
how the openSUSE community works. For what was requested here, I would
have deployed a place where you could post papers using your own
language, and using various methods including the two services I
mention here, would automatically translate your papers to practically
any language used across our planet. But for now, it'll have to be
done manually.

I hope that eventually we as a community might one day be able to
communicate and make our resources available freely across all
language barriers as a single body of work, not broken into different
language silos and not excluding anyone because of native language
spoken.

HTH,
Tony




.

On Sep 10, 2012 9:17 PM, "Max Lin" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi everybody,
>
> Since openSUSE 12.2 already released, openSUSE Team now move our eyes to openSUSE conference - osc'12.
>
> The call for paper(http://conference.opensuse.org/Call-for-papers/) is closed, also the sessions are decided and
> scheduled, you can check it on http://bootstrapping-awesome.org/schedule/. openSUSE conference will have
> participants from all over the world, we prepared an program announcement and we looking for somebody help
> us translation of the program announcement in the different languages, if you willing do this task, started from
> http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Conference_Program_announcement would be good!
>
> Thanks for your contribution to keep openSUSE grow up!
>
>
> Best regards,
> Max
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>
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Re: [opensuse-marketing] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Dave Howorth
Tony Su wrote:
> Re: translation,
>
> Highly recommend posting machine-translated copy using either Google
> Translate(http://translate.google.com/) or Microsoft
> Translate(http://www.bing.com/translator)
>
> Both are free and only take seconds then ask for a native speaker
> review to clean up any idioms and colloquials.

IMHO, this is a poor idea. The quality of translations is very variable
and could be excellent, a joke, or completely unintelligible. It's
likely to frustrate users and reduce the perceived quality of the distro.

Individual users can use one of the translation services themselves, so
perhaps a better idea for an untranslated page is to offer the English
source together with buttons that the user can use to obtain a
translation if required.

Similarly, when an individual is translating a page, they will, again
IMHO, prefer to start from the original source, perhaps *plus* a machine
translation. It's certainly what I do when translating e.g. a page on a
German website.
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Re: [opensuse-marketing] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Rajko M.
On Wed, 12 Sep 2012 10:49:43 +0100
Dave Howorth <[hidden email]> wrote:

> IMHO, this is a poor idea. The quality of translations is very
> variable ...

I used above paragraph with few languages and you are right, it is
touchy.

Those that I use natively are slightly distorted, but nothing
essentially wrong. In those that I have no feeling for details, I got
gist of your message.

> Individual users can use one of the translation services themselves,
> ...

One thing that is certainly wrong with "copy translation and improve
locally" method is that web service will not improve. They learn from
user feedback.

IMHO, to trigger initial interest we should provide machine translation
clearly marked as such, but also links to translation service and
explanation why it is important to use them.

> ... when an individual is translating a page, they will ... start from
> the original source, perhaps *plus* a machine translation. ...

That is correct. I use that to type lesser, although with paragraph
used to test translation service, I had to correct each of translation
strings to sound natively.

I'm looking for wiki extensions covering translation.  

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-marketing] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Jan Engelhardt-4
In reply to this post by Tony Su

On Tuesday 2012-09-11 23:20, Tony Su wrote:
>
>Highly recommend posting machine-translated copy using either Google
>Translate(http://translate.google.com/) or Microsoft
>Translate(http://www.bing.com/translator)
>
>Both are free and only take seconds then ask for a native speaker
>review to clean up any idioms and colloquials.

The time to weed out the bugs of automatic translation is close to
doing a non-automated, more targeted translation. Especially the
farther east you go on the globe (Japanese TL with Google is pretty
much unusable in either direction) and/or dealing with
highly-technical words (and fillers) - which the announcement is in no
way short of, like "Call For Papers", "to keynote", "to kick off",
"workshop", "track", "session", "usability expert", and (obviousisms
like) "speakers talking".
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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-marketing] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Tony Su
Hello Jan (and whoever else receives this, I'm not subscribed to all
the mail-lists on CC)

Yes, it's quite possible that the initial translations might not be
"good enough" -- and ultimately since machine translations today still
cannot usually provide better than word for word literal word
substitution, "good enough" is probably best defined as understandable
although not with the smooth idiomatic linguistic structures that can
best be provided by a human being.

What machine translation can provide is the ability to get the proper
meaning across, to communicate an idea properly. And, if human
resources aren't available, this is better than no communication at
all.

As for accuracy... Particularly for short, "standard expressions" that
crop up again and again in the types of documents we produce,
Web-based translations provide a means for anyone to submit an
improvement or correction. Assuming that Google or Microsoft or
whoever is used as the Translation Partner properly evaluates, accepts
and implements suggestions for future use of the same expression, we
should expect that within rather short order future documents should
be translated extremely well.

If there is any interest in openSUSE/SUSE to investiggate the
capabilities of this technology, a project should be designated that
can properly evaluate whether machine translation is worthless or
promising and if desired I am willing to shepherd it.

Tony





On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Jan Engelhardt <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Tuesday 2012-09-11 23:20, Tony Su wrote:
>>
>>Highly recommend posting machine-translated copy using either Google
>>Translate(http://translate.google.com/) or Microsoft
>>Translate(http://www.bing.com/translator)
>>
>>Both are free and only take seconds then ask for a native speaker
>>review to clean up any idioms and colloquials.
>
> The time to weed out the bugs of automatic translation is close to
> doing a non-automated, more targeted translation. Especially the
> farther east you go on the globe (Japanese TL with Google is pretty
> much unusable in either direction) and/or dealing with
> highly-technical words (and fillers) - which the announcement is in no
> way short of, like "Call For Papers", "to keynote", "to kick off",
> "workshop", "track", "session", "usability expert", and (obviousisms
> like) "speakers talking".
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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-marketing] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Jos Poortvliet-5
On Wednesday 26 September 2012 15:18:09 Tony Su wrote:

> Hello Jan (and whoever else receives this, I'm not subscribed to all
> the mail-lists on CC)
>
> Yes, it's quite possible that the initial translations might not be
> "good enough" -- and ultimately since machine translations today still
> cannot usually provide better than word for word literal word
> substitution, "good enough" is probably best defined as understandable
> although not with the smooth idiomatic linguistic structures that can
> best be provided by a human being.
>
> What machine translation can provide is the ability to get the proper
> meaning across, to communicate an idea properly. And, if human
> resources aren't available, this is better than no communication at
> all.
>
> As for accuracy... Particularly for short, "standard expressions" that
> crop up again and again in the types of documents we produce,
> Web-based translations provide a means for anyone to submit an
> improvement or correction. Assuming that Google or Microsoft or
> whoever is used as the Translation Partner properly evaluates, accepts
> and implements suggestions for future use of the same expression, we
> should expect that within rather short order future documents should
> be translated extremely well.
>
> If there is any interest in openSUSE/SUSE to investiggate the
> capabilities of this technology, a project should be designated that
> can properly evaluate whether machine translation is worthless or
> promising and if desired I am willing to shepherd it.
'shepherd' or 'do' ;-)

I wouldn't know what would be needed to actually TEST this out - but you're
right that there are plenty of pages not translated in plenty of languages.

Quite a few of our sites are in github, maybe you can set up a test version
with a translation system of, say, openbuildservice.org: fork
https://github.com/openSUSE/o-b-s.org and add the translation system, then
run it somewhere so ppl can check it out. If it's better than what we have
(and from your comments I take it it will be) you can just make a merge
request to the github repo and the maintainers get it up. And done, one
down, a dozen to go :D

Then there is the wiki. How do we support our translators with this, can
google translate be helpful for that? For example, maybe it is possible to
have an auto-translate run over our wiki pages so all pages get translations
in say the basic 25 languages or so. Then people can edit as things used to
are...

Is that possible? Is there a mediawiki tool which can crawl our
en.opensuse.org wiki and, for pages that have no de.opensuse.org,
fr.opensuse.org etc etc equivalents, create and fill them? If you 'just'
manage to do that, our wiki has become far more accessible to non-native
speakers...

Cheers,
Jos

> Tony
>
> On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Jan Engelhardt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 2012-09-11 23:20, Tony Su wrote:
> >>Highly recommend posting machine-translated copy using either Google
> >>Translate(http://translate.google.com/) or Microsoft
> >>Translate(http://www.bing.com/translator)
> >>
> >>Both are free and only take seconds then ask for a native speaker
> >>review to clean up any idioms and colloquials.
> >>
> > The time to weed out the bugs of automatic translation is close to
> > doing a non-automated, more targeted translation. Especially the
> > farther east you go on the globe (Japanese TL with Google is pretty
> > much unusable in either direction) and/or dealing with
> > highly-technical words (and fillers) - which the announcement is in no
> > way short of, like "Call For Papers", "to keynote", "to kick off",
> > "workshop", "track", "session", "usability expert", and (obviousisms
> > like) "speakers talking".

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-marketing] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Jos Poortvliet-5
On Thursday 27 September 2012 15:32:45 Tony Su wrote:
> Everything you suggest is possible and I'm of course willing to setup any
> demo people may be interested in.
>
> The main thing is I would want some kind of concensus from "The Powers
> that Be" there would be some kind of future if it really solves the
> problem satisfactorly, no one wants to waste time on something that can't
> happen.

Dunno if anyone else here gets skull crushing visions from 'The Powers that
Be', I sure don't - I don't think there is anyone who can answer that
question I am afraid. However if the demo works it will be up to the website
owners to accept merge requests to enable this functionality. They will only
do that if they feel it's worth it - as they will have to maintain it in the
future.

As they don't seem like feeling responding here, I have no idea if they
will. That is in part why I suggested to create a demo site of say open-
build-service.org - if that works satisfactory, the owners of that site
(that'd be Adrian & the rest of the OBS team, I suppose) might like it and
be willing to adopt it. If they do, well, in dutch we say "once one sheep
has crossed the dam, others will follow".

> The reason why I used the term "shepherding" is because I am always
> interested in building something that can live independently of myself--
> I'm not looking to make myself indispensible, from the first day of
> anything I do I'm looking to bring on others who want to build the same
> thing.

Unless someone does it, it isn't gonna happen. We've got shepherders plenty,
but no sheep interested in doing it until someone has shown it's worth
doing. That's what I suggested doing... If you've implemented this and it is
accepted by the website admins, that means they are convinced of the value.
At that point, it WILL live on independent of you because they have to
maintain it and websites which don't implement it might get it just to fall
in line.

> Also, awhile back I started penciling out what mass Translation for
> openSUSE might become. Yes, all things start small. But, if this becomes
> important to more people in openSUSE, I'd like to involve anyone who wants
> this to enhance what they do and avoid being unable to deliver.

It's about the first step - unless it's shown to work on a site and provides
some benefit, it won't go anywhere, I'm afraid. That's why I suggested to
Just Do It.

> Tony
>
> On Sep 27, 2012 2:38 AM, "Jos Poortvliet" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 26 September 2012 15:18:09 Tony Su wrote:
> > > Hello Jan (and whoever else receives this, I'm not subscribed to all
> > > the mail-lists on CC)
> > >
> > > Yes, it's quite possible that the initial translations might not be
> > > "good enough" -- and ultimately since machine translations today still
> > > cannot usually provide better than word for word literal word
> > > substitution, "good enough" is probably best defined as understandable
> > > although not with the smooth idiomatic linguistic structures that can
> > > best be provided by a human being.
> > >
> > > What machine translation can provide is the ability to get the proper
> > > meaning across, to communicate an idea properly. And, if human
> > > resources aren't available, this is better than no communication at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > As for accuracy... Particularly for short, "standard expressions" that
> > > crop up again and again in the types of documents we produce,
> > > Web-based translations provide a means for anyone to submit an
> > > improvement or correction. Assuming that Google or Microsoft or
> > > whoever is used as the Translation Partner properly evaluates, accepts
> > > and implements suggestions for future use of the same expression, we
> > > should expect that within rather short order future documents should
> > > be translated extremely well.
> > >
> > > If there is any interest in openSUSE/SUSE to investiggate the
> > > capabilities of this technology, a project should be designated that
> > > can properly evaluate whether machine translation is worthless or
> > > promising and if desired I am willing to shepherd it.
> >
> > 'shepherd' or 'do' ;-)
> >
> > I wouldn't know what would be needed to actually TEST this out - but
> > you're right that there are plenty of pages not translated in plenty of
> > languages.
> >
> > Quite a few of our sites are in github, maybe you can set up a test
> > version with a translation system of, say, openbuildservice.org: fork
> > https://github.com/openSUSE/o-b-s.org and add the translation system,
> > then run it somewhere so ppl can check it out. If it's better than what
> > we have (and from your comments I take it it will be) you can just make
> > a merge request to the github repo and the maintainers get it up. And
> > done, one down, a dozen to go :D
> >
> > Then there is the wiki. How do we support our translators with this, can
> > google translate be helpful for that? For example, maybe it is possible
> > to have an auto-translate run over our wiki pages so all pages get
> > translations
> > in say the basic 25 languages or so. Then people can edit as things used
> > to are...
> >
> > Is that possible? Is there a mediawiki tool which can crawl our
> > en.opensuse.org wiki and, for pages that have no de.opensuse.org,
> > fr.opensuse.org etc etc equivalents, create and fill them? If you 'just'
> > manage to do that, our wiki has become far more accessible to non-native
> > speakers...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jos
> >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Jan Engelhardt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > > > On Tuesday 2012-09-11 23:20, Tony Su wrote:
> > > >>Highly recommend posting machine-translated copy using either Google
> > > >>Translate(http://translate.google.com/) or Microsoft
> > > >>Translate(http://www.bing.com/translator)
> > > >>
> > > >>Both are free and only take seconds then ask for a native speaker
> > > >>review to clean up any idioms and colloquials.
> > > >>
> > > > The time to weed out the bugs of automatic translation is close to
> > > > doing a non-automated, more targeted translation. Especially the
> > > > farther east you go on the globe (Japanese TL with Google is pretty
> > > > much unusable in either direction) and/or dealing with
> > > > highly-technical words (and fillers) - which the announcement is in
> > > > no
> > > > way short of, like "Call For Papers", "to keynote", "to kick off",
> > > > "workshop", "track", "session", "usability expert", and (obviousisms
> > > > like) "speakers talking".

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Re: [opensuse-project] Re: [opensuse-marketing] Call for help translation of osc'12 program announcement

Jos Poortvliet-5
In reply to this post by Jos Poortvliet-5
On Thursday 27 September 2012 15:32:45 Tony Su wrote:
> Everything you suggest is possible and I'm of course willing to setup any
> demo people may be interested in.
>
> The main thing is I would want some kind of concensus from "The Powers
> that Be" there would be some kind of future if it really solves the
> problem satisfactorly, no one wants to waste time on something that can't
> happen.

I actually blogged about decision making in openSUSE at some point, see:
http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2011/10/discuss-here.html

Hopefully that clarifies some things ;-)

> The reason why I used the term "shepherding" is because I am always
> interested in building something that can live independently of myself--
> I'm not looking to make myself indispensible, from the first day of
> anything I do I'm looking to bring on others who want to build the same
> thing.
>
> Also, awhile back I started penciling out what mass Translation for
> openSUSE might become. Yes, all things start small. But, if this becomes
> important to more people in openSUSE, I'd like to involve anyone who wants
> this to enhance what they do and avoid being unable to deliver.
>
> Tony
>
> On Sep 27, 2012 2:38 AM, "Jos Poortvliet" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 26 September 2012 15:18:09 Tony Su wrote:
> > > Hello Jan (and whoever else receives this, I'm not subscribed to all
> > > the mail-lists on CC)
> > >
> > > Yes, it's quite possible that the initial translations might not be
> > > "good enough" -- and ultimately since machine translations today still
> > > cannot usually provide better than word for word literal word
> > > substitution, "good enough" is probably best defined as understandable
> > > although not with the smooth idiomatic linguistic structures that can
> > > best be provided by a human being.
> > >
> > > What machine translation can provide is the ability to get the proper
> > > meaning across, to communicate an idea properly. And, if human
> > > resources aren't available, this is better than no communication at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > As for accuracy... Particularly for short, "standard expressions" that
> > > crop up again and again in the types of documents we produce,
> > > Web-based translations provide a means for anyone to submit an
> > > improvement or correction. Assuming that Google or Microsoft or
> > > whoever is used as the Translation Partner properly evaluates, accepts
> > > and implements suggestions for future use of the same expression, we
> > > should expect that within rather short order future documents should
> > > be translated extremely well.
> > >
> > > If there is any interest in openSUSE/SUSE to investiggate the
> > > capabilities of this technology, a project should be designated that
> > > can properly evaluate whether machine translation is worthless or
> > > promising and if desired I am willing to shepherd it.
> >
> > 'shepherd' or 'do' ;-)
> >
> > I wouldn't know what would be needed to actually TEST this out - but
> > you're right that there are plenty of pages not translated in plenty of
> > languages.
> >
> > Quite a few of our sites are in github, maybe you can set up a test
> > version with a translation system of, say, openbuildservice.org: fork
> > https://github.com/openSUSE/o-b-s.org and add the translation system,
> > then run it somewhere so ppl can check it out. If it's better than what
> > we have (and from your comments I take it it will be) you can just make
> > a merge request to the github repo and the maintainers get it up. And
> > done, one down, a dozen to go :D
> >
> > Then there is the wiki. How do we support our translators with this, can
> > google translate be helpful for that? For example, maybe it is possible
> > to have an auto-translate run over our wiki pages so all pages get
> > translations
> > in say the basic 25 languages or so. Then people can edit as things used
> > to are...
> >
> > Is that possible? Is there a mediawiki tool which can crawl our
> > en.opensuse.org wiki and, for pages that have no de.opensuse.org,
> > fr.opensuse.org etc etc equivalents, create and fill them? If you 'just'
> > manage to do that, our wiki has become far more accessible to non-native
> > speakers...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jos
> >
> > > Tony
> > >
> > > On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Jan Engelhardt <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> > > > On Tuesday 2012-09-11 23:20, Tony Su wrote:
> > > >>Highly recommend posting machine-translated copy using either Google
> > > >>Translate(http://translate.google.com/) or Microsoft
> > > >>Translate(http://www.bing.com/translator)
> > > >>
> > > >>Both are free and only take seconds then ask for a native speaker
> > > >>review to clean up any idioms and colloquials.
> > > >>
> > > > The time to weed out the bugs of automatic translation is close to
> > > > doing a non-automated, more targeted translation. Especially the
> > > > farther east you go on the globe (Japanese TL with Google is pretty
> > > > much unusable in either direction) and/or dealing with
> > > > highly-technical words (and fillers) - which the announcement is in
> > > > no
> > > > way short of, like "Call For Papers", "to keynote", "to kick off",
> > > > "workshop", "track", "session", "usability expert", and (obviousisms
> > > > like) "speakers talking".

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