12.1...., nope!

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12.1...., nope!

Linux Tyro-2
Hi,

I have decided to NOT go with 12.1 even though it would be very fresh
(after a few hours), but for learning purposes, the old one (11.4) is
more than sufficient.....

IF I am thinking wrong, please do let me know.....

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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Clayton-29
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 13:47, Linux Tyro wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have decided to NOT go with 12.1 even though it would be very fresh
> (after a few hours), but for learning purposes, the old one (11.4) is
> more than sufficient.....
>
> IF I am thinking wrong, please do let me know.....

Nothing wrong with that.  Lots of people here are using version one or
two (or even more)  releases back.

Whatever you decide, there are pros and cons.  One release back has
more fixes available/applied, and generally is more stable.  On the
other hand the latest release has a more up-to-date software
selection, new features/functionality, possibly better hardware
support, and a newer kernel.  But... you can set up your repositories
to grab the latest version of most apps too... so you're not left
behind.

You use what works for you.  The main risk is if the version you are
using is outside the patch/update support window... then you no longer
get security patches.  11.4 is still supported, so no probs, just have
fun learning.... and when you post a request for help be specific
about what version you're working with.


C.
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Linux Tyro-2
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:57 AM, C <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Nothing wrong with that.  Lots of people here are using version one or
> two (or even more)  releases back.

> Whatever you decide, there are pros and cons.  One release back has
> more fixes available/applied, and generally is more stable.  On the
> other hand the latest release has a more up-to-date software
> selection, new features/functionality, possibly better hardware
> support, and a newer kernel.  But... you can set up your repositories
> to grab the latest version of most apps too... so you're not left
> behind.

Oh I see.

> You use what works for you.  The main risk is if the version you are
> using is outside the patch/update support window... then you no longer
> get security patches.  11.4 is still supported, so no probs, just have
> fun learning....

Ah well, then I remain with what I have....11.4

> and when you post a request for help be specific about what version you're working with.

Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with
"google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the
apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are
admins of Suse, and it is what I hate. See how cute is openSUSE's
policy, it says, 'Make openSUSE the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain
and the most widely used Linux distribution'. Here the word 'easiest'
comes in the policy of openSUSE and implemented too, that's the
biggest plus point.

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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Linux Tyro-2
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:55 AM, Linux Tyro wrote:

Oops forgot to truncate again the email, oops....

:(

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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro-2
Linux Tyro said the following on 11/16/2011 08:55 AM:
> Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with
> "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the
> apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are
> admins of Suse, and it is what I hate.

Its clear you don't understand what google does and its clear you don't
understand how to use it.

Google indexes everything it can get at.  If you mis-configure
google-desktop it will add the contents of your machine to its index.

There is no semantics.
If you google for "god" and some idiot proclaims he is god, the google
will index that that as it will index bible pages and other pages
claiming others are god and the pages saying those people are not god.

God of the universe or god of Linux or god of a single machine.
Its all the same to google.

It doesn't care.  Its just an indexing engine.

You seem to be expecting google to do your thinking for you, somehow
read your mind for what you really, really want.

* Don't expect your first query to return what you want
* Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page
* Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many
* Don't expect too get answers without making effort
* Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia,
  is 100% correct and authoritative.
* Don't be cynical either.

You are no more likely to get authoritative answers here than by using
google, not least of all since this list gets archived on the 'net and
indexed by google!

None of this is different from researching in a library, reading books
and published papers.  I gather schools and universities don't teach
that any more, they expect you somehow have this know-how innately, all
evidence to the opposite!


More specifically:

* The issue about "should I go with the new x.1 release as soon as it
  comes out" has occurred on this any many other lists many times.
  Go google.  Construct more than one query.  Don't just look to Suse.
  Refine your queries.

  You could have commented that you searched the list archives and found
  such-and-such a comment about the problems with 10.1, 11.1 and
  wondered if there was going to be similar problems with 12.1.

  Or you could have joined one of the other Suse lists concerned with
  the development of 12.x and monitored the traffic there.

* By definition you *are* an "admin of Suse".
  Live with it!

* Google first.
  Show evidence you have put some effort in rather than using this
  forum as a crutch.

* Take some initiative to find out.
  That's one of the differences in attitude between Linux people and
  Windows-weenies.


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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Michael S. Dunsavage-2
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro-2
On 11/16/2011 8:55 AM, Linux Tyro wrote:
> Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with
> "google" is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the
> apex side considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are
> admins of Suse, and it is what I hate. See how cute is openSUSE's
> policy, it says, 'Make openSUSE the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain
> and the most widely used Linux distribution'. Here the word 'easiest'
> comes in the policy of openSUSE and implemented too, that's the
> biggest plus point.
Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert' along the lines
that it will be very hands on. You keep throwing around that openSUSE
put easy in their policy. Maybe that should be changed if people are
getting the impression that you can install, go, and forget. Perhaps you
should pick up a Linux book in general, as we have recommended, to get a
better hand on Linux in general. You said before you were going to leave
and go to Redhat/Fedora....who are even less forgiving than the people
are sometimes on this list. I'm starting to get the impression that
you're hiding  by the word 'easy' in the policy because you don't want
to put the time and energy required into learning a new paradigm other
than Windows. I fear that if you don't start to change your way of
thinking and get used to a more hands on way of thinking other than the
MS world where you double click and go, you will not stick with Linux at
all.
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Michael S. Dunsavage-2
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
On 11/16/2011 9:29 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
> * Don't expect your first query to return what you want
> * Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page
> * Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many

> * Don't expect too get answers without making effort
This is really important to keep in mind.  And it's not just for Linux,
it's in life in general.

> * Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia,
>    is 100% correct and authoritative.
> * Don't be cynical either.

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Re: 12.1...., nope!

jdd@dodin.org
In reply to this post by Michael S. Dunsavage-2
Le 16/11/2011 15:35, Michael S. Dunsavage a écrit :

> Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'

plain wrong.

depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can
be explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server
are not for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get
away"

example:

http://wiki.tldp.org/Partition-Mass-Storage-Dummies-Linux-HOWTO

jdd
(LDP coordinator)
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Adam Tauno Williams
In reply to this post by Michael S. Dunsavage-2
On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 09:45 -0500, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:
> On 11/16/2011 9:29 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:
> > * Don't expect your first query to return what you want
> > * Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page
> > * Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many
> > * Don't expect too get answers without making effort
> This is really important to keep in mind.  And it's not just for Linux,
> it's in life in general.

+1  Searching the Internet [or "googling" since we are in an unwavering
effort to proprietize the Internet] is, IMO, just not a very effective
way to find information.  You'll find (a) lots of questions with no
answers (b) old answers and (c) wrong answers - frequently after wasting
a fair amount of time.

If you have a question it is *much* better to find an appropriate list /
forum, subscribe to that, search it's contents specifically, or post a
question.

For example - I've been subscribed to the Samba and Samba-Technical
lists for years and years.  If I have a Samba related problem searching
the mail folder where all that gets routed too is much more effective
than searching 'the Internet'.  I always know the vintage of the
information I'm looking at [many websites do a bad job of making that
clear] and I have [possibly] and entire thread to look at.

Anyway, I plan on going to 12.1 soon [maybe this weekend].  Upgrading
versions has almost always worked pretty seamlessly for me.



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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Jim Henderson-4
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro-2
On Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:55:36 -0600, Linux Tyro wrote:

> Sure. And apart from it I would google also but the problem with
> "google"
> is that it depicts sites which directly tell you from the apex side
> considering even the home users the 'experts' as if they are admins of
> Suse, and it is what I hate. See how cute is openSUSE's policy, it says,
> 'Make openSUSE the easiest Linux for anyone to obtain and the most
> widely used Linux distribution'. Here the word 'easiest'
> comes in the policy of openSUSE and implemented too, that's the biggest
> plus point.

You are still equating "easy" with "I don't have to research my questions
before asking them" - and that's incorrect.

As I suggested before, visit the forums; many of our users are novices
and ask "entry-level" questions after doing some research.

But as in life, any time you want to learn a new skill, you have to do
some work to acquire it.

Jim

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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Linux Tyro-2
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:59 PM, Anton Aylward wrote:

> Its clear you don't understand what google does and its clear you don't
> understand how to use it.

I knew only this much that google is a search engine and it searches
your query, what more you expect from a home user? Take a survey of
house-wives and all the people and ask 'how google works' and what
they simply tell you is that 'it searches'!

> Google indexes everything it can get at.  If you mis-configure
> google-desktop it will add the contents of your machine to its index.

> There is no semantics.
> If you google for "god" and some idiot proclaims he is god, the google
> will index that that as it will index bible pages and other pages
> claiming others are god and the pages saying those people are not god.

> God of the universe or god of Linux or god of a single machine.
> Its all the same to google.

> It doesn't care.  Its just an indexing engine.

Oh I came to know this....I didn't know this in fact.....

> * Don't expect your first query to return what you want

Okay, I would not expect from now.

> * Don't expect what you want to be on the first hit or the first page

Ah well.

> * Don't expect any single page to have the right answer, read many

If I would have more time, I would go through each and every page.

> * Don't expect too get answers without making effort

For sure, I agree with you in this regard.

> * Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia,
>  is 100% correct and authoritative.

Oh I see, it may have errors then.... , it could be.. since it also
has an option of 'edit'....

> * Don't be cynical either.

Like you, I am not.

> You are no more likely to get authoritative answers here than by using
> google, not least of all since this list gets archived on the 'net and
> indexed by google!

Ah well.

> None of this is different from researching in a library, reading books
> and published papers.  I gather schools and universities don't teach
> that any more, they expect you somehow have this know-how innately, all
> evidence to the opposite!

> More specifically:

> * The issue about "should I go with the new x.1 release as soon as it
>  comes out" has occurred on this any many other lists many times.
>  Go google.  Construct more than one query.  Don't just look to Suse.
>  Refine your queries.

Okk....

>  You could have commented that you searched the list archives and found
>  such-and-such a comment about the problems with 10.1, 11.1 and
>  wondered if there was going to be similar problems with 12.1.

Nope!

>  Or you could have joined one of the other Suse lists concerned with
>  the development of 12.x and monitored the traffic there.

Never!

> * By definition you *are* an "admin of Suse".
>  Live with it!

Not possible, since I am not, I accept what I am, it is your advice
but thanks for it.

> * Google first.

Sure.

>  Show evidence you have put some effort in rather than using this
>  forum as a crutch.

Ok, that I would do definitely....

> * Take some initiative to find out.

I agree and start....

>  That's one of the differences in attitude between Linux people and
>  Windows-weenies.

May be....but ultimately Linux wins!

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

> Sigh.

Ahh.

> Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert' along the lines that
> it will be very hands on.

I don't think you are correct.

> You keep throwing around that openSUSE put easy in
> their policy.

Since it has already put! Am I really wrong? Why I like openSUSE?
Because of this reason only... It is of course, more polished,
better....

> Maybe that should be changed if people are getting the
> impression that you can install, go, and forget.

Not forgetting man!

> Perhaps you should pick up a Linux book in general, as we have recommended, to get a better hand on
> Linux in general.

That I agree, I should and would.

> You said before you were going to leave and go to
> Redhat/Fedora....who are even less forgiving than the people are sometimes
> on this list.

Forgiving.....! Amazing! If I say, I also forgive you, then...?

> I'm starting to get the impression that you're hiding  by the
> word 'easy' in the policy because you don't want to put the time and energy
> required into learning a new paradigm other than Windows.

It was a 'yesterday' not 'present'... It was my thinking when I used
to run Windows!

> I fear that if you don't start to change your way of thinking and get used to a more hands on
> way of thinking other than the MS world where you double click and go, you
> will not stick with Linux at all.

I agree that for learning Linux, efforts are needed! Surely true....

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:15 PM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

> On 11/16/2011 9:29 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

> This is really important to keep in mind.  And it's not just for Linux, it's
> in life in general.

And it is not for only me, you should also follow it in your life (I
don't know if apart from Linux, you follow it in your life or not....)

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:13 PM, jdd wrote:

>> Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'

> plain wrong.

> depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can be
> explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server are not
> for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get away"

> example:

> http://wiki.tldp.org/Partition-Mass-Storage-Dummies-Linux-HOWTO

Wrong since it relative to him only and not to everyone...in
general...he misinterpreted the same....

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

> +1  Searching the Internet [or "googling" since we are in an unwavering
> effort to proprietize the Internet] is, IMO, just not a very effective
> way to find information.  You'll find (a) lots of questions with no
> answers (b) old answers and (c) wrong answers - frequently after wasting
> a fair amount of time.

> If you have a question it is *much* better to find an appropriate list /
> forum, subscribe to that, search it's contents specifically, or post a
> question.

I do agree with you.

> For example - I've been subscribed to the Samba and Samba-Technical
> lists for years and years.  If I have a Samba related problem searching
> the mail folder where all that gets routed too is much more effective
> than searching 'the Internet'.  I always know the vintage of the
> information I'm looking at [many websites do a bad job of making that
> clear] and I have [possibly] and entire thread to look at.

That's really very nice, I would follow the same principle....

> Anyway, I plan on going to 12.1 soon [maybe this weekend].  Upgrading
> versions has almost always worked pretty seamlessly for me.

You can since you are not new to Linux, you know it after all, ;)-

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:39 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:

> You are still equating "easy" with "I don't have to research my questions
> before asking them" - and that's incorrect.

No, I would google, I would have to, in fact.

> As I suggested before, visit the forums; many of our users are novices
> and ask "entry-level" questions after doing some research.

Ah well, sure.

> But as in life, any time you want to learn a new skill, you have to do
> some work to acquire it.

100% agreeing with you.

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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Michael S. Dunsavage-2
In reply to this post by jdd@dodin.org
On 11/16/2011 11:43 AM, jdd wrote:
>
>> Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'
>
> plain wrong.
>
> depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can
> be explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server
> are not for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get
> away"

I do like how you complete truncated the "along the lines that it will
be very hands on." from my comment. How many howtos or instructions tell
you to "click on properties and then apply and then MAGIC! it's setup".

No they tell you where to change a file and setting. A much more hands
on approach from the MS world where you clicky clicky options and go on
your merry way, maybe.
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro-2
Linux Tyro said the following on 11/16/2011 12:46 PM:

>> > * Don't think that a user contributed entry in, for example, Wikipedia,
>> >  is 100% correct and authoritative.

> Oh I see, it may have errors then.... , it could be.. since it also
> has an option of 'edit'....

I have a friend who is famous enough to have a Wikipedia page.
It was created by a lady he has never met and who won't enter into a
dialogue with him about the page and the information she has entered
there.  In broad-brush terms three is correct information, such a one
might find on the jacket of books he has written and the "bio" handed
out at conferences where he has been a speaker, but she had added a
great deal of detail with no source that is totally wrong.  Much of this
can be proven wrong by documented details (e.g. bank records, travel
records) and my fiend has re-edited the page correcting this material.
However the woman restores the erroneous information.

Anyone can edit that page.  I could, you could.  Wikipedia doesn't care
either way.  Nothing she has entered is slanderous or libellous.

From Google's point of view its just another page to index.  Just like
the pages about "flat earth" and the  "Flying Spaghetti Monster".  As
far as google is concerned Pastafarianism is just as valid as Conversion
Therapy, Lutheranism, Buddhism, Creationism, Pyramidology, Phrenology,
Relativity, The Bermuda Triangle, Sociobiology, The Germ Theory of
Disease, The War on Terror, Lysenkoism, Healing by Touch, Global
Warming, Ghosts, Quantum Electrodynamics, Transubstantiation,
vonDänikenism, Dianetics, Plate Tectonics, The Moon Landing Hoax, and
much more.

You are expected to exercise judgement and common sense and evaluate
their validity to your situation.

This doesn't mean google (or wikipedia) is useless, far from it.
Everyone and anyone can have their say, and much of that say doesn't
necessarily take your situation into account.  ]

I'm well known in various forums for pointing out ...

        Context is Everything

Context also means thinking about what risks you can take.

Many people here have a different risk risk tolerance from you, Tyro.
You were concerned about the risk of getting things wrong when you were
partitioning your disk for Suse; you've displayed concern about which
distribution of Linux to use.  This is addressing the risk/benefit of
dealing with alternatives.

Some of us have spare machines that we can afford to "loose", to wipe
and try alternatives.  Oh, and the time.  To say nothing for the
experience in determining why various problems have arisen (even if we
have to google for them or search the archives for past mention since
some problems are of a "Class" or recur in detail).  All this is
factored into "risk".

And on the befit side, if you are still learning, if you can't yet
differentiate between a bug and a problem in your understanding or a
shortcoming in your experience, where does the benefit to you of
something like 12.1 really lie?

You need to make the effort to evaluate not just what you find via
google and its relevance to you, but also the go/no-go here.

Personally, I have a policy of never using the first release of any
software product.  In fact "don't use version 1" is an aphorism in the
industry.


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That way, they're a mile away, and you have their shoes.
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Michael S. Dunsavage-2
Michael S. Dunsavage said the following on 11/16/2011 09:35 AM:


> Sigh.

Indeed!

> Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'

For some suitable value of expertise ..

> along the lines
> that it will be very hands on.

There is that.
Tyro, why bother reading/asking/searching if you're not going to do
something?

> You keep throwing around that openSUSE
> put easy in their policy. Maybe that should be changed if people are
> getting the impression that you can install, go, and forget.

Well, people who have been brainwashed by Windows (or even *shock*
horror* OSX) get to be like that.

Its sort of like having driven a soft-cushioned American car all your
life, with power-everything, soft suspension, automatic suspension, six
cylinder five litre engine, cruise control, wide long straight roads
.... and then being landed with a 2CV in the streets of Paris[1].  Or a
Porche.  Or perhaps that great competitor to the 2CV, the Renault 5 with
the 850cc engine and which could corner in its own length.  All of a
sudden you are in control - and you have to be in control and know the
machine and how to make it perform.

[1] Or London or ...

> Perhaps you
> should pick up a Linux book in general, as we have recommended,

*MANY* TIMES* *!* *!* *!*

> to get a
> better hand on Linux in general.

I'll send you one of mine .... C.O.D.

< I'm starting to get the impression that
> you're hiding  by the word 'easy' in the policy because you don't want
> to put the time and energy required into learning a new paradigm other
> than Windows.

+1

> I fear that if you don't start to change your way of
> thinking and get used to a more hands on way of thinking other than the
> MS world where you double click and go, you will not stick with Linux at
> all.

+1


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The same applies for other kinds of long-lasting low-level pain. [...]
The body's response to being jabbed, pierced, and cut is to produce
endorphins. [...]  So here's my programme for breaking that cycle of
dependency on Windows: get left arm tattooed with dragon motif, buy a
crate of Jamaican Hot! Pepper Sauce, get nipples pierced.  With any
luck that will produce enough endorphins to make Windows completely
redundant, and I can then upgrade to Linux and get on with things.
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Linux Tyro-2
In reply to this post by Michael S. Dunsavage-2
On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 12:09 AM, Michael S. Dunsavage wrote:

> A much more hands on approach from the MS world where you clicky clicky options and go on your
> merry way, maybe.

I accept the Linux is 100% better than MS, agreeing.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:41 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

> I have a friend who is famous enough to have a Wikipedia page.
> It was created by a lady he has never met and who won't enter into a
> dialogue with him about the page and the information she has entered
> there.  In broad-brush terms three is correct information, such a one
> might find on the jacket of books he has written and the "bio" handed
> out at conferences where he has been a speaker, but she had added a
> great deal of detail with no source that is totally wrong.  Much of this
> can be proven wrong by documented details (e.g. bank records, travel
> records) and my fiend has re-edited the page correcting this material.
> However the woman restores the erroneous information.

> Anyone can edit that page.  I could, you could.  Wikipedia doesn't care
> either way.  Nothing she has entered is slanderous or libellous.

Confirmed that wikipedia MAY have errors.

> From Google's point of view its just another page to index.  Just like
> the pages about "flat earth" and the  "Flying Spaghetti Monster".  As
> far as google is concerned Pastafarianism is just as valid as Conversion
> Therapy, Lutheranism, Buddhism, Creationism, Pyramidology, Phrenology,
> Relativity, The Bermuda Triangle, Sociobiology, The Germ Theory of
> Disease, The War on Terror, Lysenkoism, Healing by Touch, Global
> Warming, Ghosts, Quantum Electrodynamics, Transubstantiation,
> vonDänikenism, Dianetics, Plate Tectonics, The Moon Landing Hoax, and
> much more.

Okk.

> You are expected to exercise judgement and common sense and evaluate
> their validity to your situation.

> This doesn't mean google (or wikipedia) is useless, far from it.
> Everyone and anyone can have their say, and much of that say doesn't
> necessarily take your situation into account.  ]

> I'm well known in various forums for pointing out ...

>        Context is Everything

Yeah, correct.

> Context also means thinking about what risks you can take.

> Many people here have a different risk risk tolerance from you, Tyro.
> You were concerned about the risk of getting things wrong when you were
> partitioning your disk for Suse; you've displayed concern about which
> distribution of Linux to use.

Yeah.

> This is addressing the risk/benefit of dealing with alternatives.

Oh I see. It means that entire mailing lists run on risk/benefit of dealing...

> Some of us have spare machines that we can afford to "loose", to wipe
> and try alternatives.  Oh, and the time.  To say nothing for the
> experience in determining why various problems have arisen (even if we
> have to google for them or search the archives for past mention since
> some problems are of a "Class" or recur in detail).  All this is
> factored into "risk".

In fact, even your and mine life is factored into "risk". If you don't
ask the questions, what your 'tongue' would do...?

> And on the befit side, if you are still learning,

Any person in his entire life cannot learn all the things, so not only
I, I guess everybody is learning. However, if you consider only Linux
(as a part of life), yes I am starting to learn. So yes I am STILL
learning.

> if you can't yet differentiate between a bug and a problem in your understanding or a
> shortcoming in your experience,

I can differentiate.

> where does the benefit to you of something like 12.1 really lie?

The benefit starts if I were knowing Linux! And after two years, yes I
would install the latest version.

> You need to make the effort to evaluate not just what you find via
> google and its relevance to you, but also the go/no-go here.

Of course, that's life's philosophy.

> Personally, I have a policy of never using the first release of any
> software product.  In fact "don't use version 1" is an aphorism in the
> industry.

Oh I see but you can use if you are sure that you have command over
Linux, the most worse case is that everything is to be reinstalled!
However, its a personal choice.....But yes, now I would not go with
it, I am sure.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:56 AM, Anton Aylward wrote:

> Michael S. Dunsavage said the following on 11/16/2011 09:35 AM:

> Tyro, why bother reading/asking/searching if you're not going to do
> something?

I said 'when I get time, I would'. So I have to bother about it, in
fact computers are used in all the ways of life, you can see that...
So yes, learning (it could be very slow, though), but is a part of
daily activities or at times, weekly activities!

> Well, people who have been brainwashed by Windows (or even *shock*
> horror* OSX) get to be like that.

It is your illusion. Why are you living? Since you (or anyone) want to
make money and live happily, isn't it? And don't forget that it was
Windows who made the money and ruled the world! Yes, it was a time,
but it was a fact! So count on earth, how many people still uses
Windows? I guess (not sure, since now time has changed) it would be
more than Linux users (or a time was there, when it was there....!).
Still knowing that Windows is not free.....! Amazing....!

> Its sort of like having driven a soft-cushioned American car all your
> life, with power-everything, soft suspension, automatic suspension, six
> cylinder five litre engine, cruise control, wide long straight roads
> .... and then being landed with a 2CV in the streets of Paris[1].  Or a
> Porche.  Or perhaps that great competitor to the 2CV, the Renault 5 with
> the 850cc engine and which could corner in its own length.  All of a
> sudden you are in control - and you have to be in control and know the
> machine and how to make it perform.

> [1] Or London or ...

Good example.

> I'll send you one of mine

When?

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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Michael S. Dunsavage-2
Michael S. Dunsavage said the following on 11/16/2011 01:39 PM:

> On 11/16/2011 11:43 AM, jdd wrote:
>>
>>> Sigh. Any Linux howto will assume you are an 'expert'
>>
>> plain wrong.
>>
>> depending of the subject, your skill have to follow. Some things can
>> be explained to dummies and are, other like setting up a ldap server
>> are not for dummies and don't to be explainded to them else than "get
>> away"
>
> I do like how you complete truncated the "along the lines that it will
> be very hands on." from my comment. How many howtos or instructions tell
> you to "click on properties and then apply and then MAGIC! it's setup".
>
> No they tell you where to change a file and setting. A much more hands
> on approach from the MS world where you clicky clicky options and go on
> your merry way, maybe.

Indeed.
And what underlies *NIX are patterns.
Once you learn the patterns you can apply them over and over.
You can apply them in Suse, Redhat ... AIX ... Solaris.

Even, if you can find it, DG/UX (which, when I last used it, was *very*
SysV/4)

It's not just that Windows is clicky-clicky and you have no idea what's
going on, its that the rote learning means its different for each
release ... How else do you think training companies that soaked you for
W/2000 server could soak you again for W/2003 and then W/2008?

You don't see - well I don't see - training companies saying what you
learnt about about openSuse 10.x being no use when you come to
administer 11.x or 12.x.  OK, so maybe head-hunters and and HR people
might think "Oh, your experience is with Suse/Nell, you won't have a
clue how to use Redhat."  Or substitute Solaris or AIX in there.
And yes I've had that nonsense from recruiters who didn't know any better.

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/00000/6000/800/6858/6858.strip.gif


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The same applies for other kinds of long-lasting low-level pain. [...]
The body's response to being jabbed, pierced, and cut is to produce
endorphins. [...]  So here's my programme for breaking that cycle of
dependency on Windows: get left arm tattooed with dragon motif, buy a
crate of Jamaican Hot! Pepper Sauce, get nipples pierced.  With any
luck that will produce enough endorphins to make Windows completely
redundant, and I can then upgrade to Linux and get on with things.
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Duaine Hechler
In reply to this post by Anton Aylward-2
Let me just say... I - WAS - an MS bigot for many years - and then - I learned all the CRAP, INTRUSION, GAME PLAYING,
you can keep going .... about MS and WINDOWS.

I have spent much time as needed to dump Windoze and learn Linux (from scratch and on my own - no books) - AND - learned
to deal with its little - although, sometimes not so little - quirks - AND - HAVE NEVER LOOKED BACK.

I - ONLY - run Windoze under VB when I have to - Tax software, my piano tuning software, and a couple of other things.

This is a track record - hidden in my piano business pages - since I started in 1993

http://www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com/other/microsoft.html

I tell people that - if this info is not enough to jump from MS's ship - then they are NUTS and just STUPID.

I've trained my son and wife on openSUSE 11.4. Also, because of his "knack" of getting viruses, I conned my
brother-in-law to go to openSUSE  11.1 ?

-------------------------

Speaking of which .....

In case you didn't know, antivirus software is a "reactionary" software package.

They ONLY handle KNOWN viruses, worms, etc.

Meaning that if someone writes a NEW virus and it infects your computers, you can't blame it on the antivirus software
(because they don't know about it yet).

That virus that just hit you (and others) has to be reported and/or discovered by the antivirus software companies. THEN
they have to write a "trap" for that virus, THEN roll it out to you as an update.

SO bottom line, antivirus software is as good as the ONLY known viruses - thus being forever in "responsive" or
"reactive" mode.

Furthermore, the ONLY way to get out of this "reactionary" or "catch 22" mode is to get off Windows.

So just deal with it and move on .....

My 2cents

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Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ
Tuning, Servicing&  Rebuilding
Reed Organ Society Member
Florissant, MO 63034
(314) 838-5587
[hidden email]
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

gregfreemyer
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:03 PM, Duaine Hechler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Meaning that if someone writes a NEW virus and it infects your computers,
> you can't blame it on the antivirus software (because they don't know about
> it yet).
>

Duaine,

You probably haven't kept up with the world of virus in MS.  People
don't write most viruses, computers create them off of a assembly
line.

Indeed, there are now virus factories on the web.  If you want to
create your own unique virus, you just log into a virus factory site
and tell it what you want.  It gives you a nice shiny new virus that
no one has ever seen before.

I assume that explains why there are currently about 70,000 new viruses per day!

Greg
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OT: MS lawsuits (was Re: 12.1...., nope!)

Duaine Hechler
In reply to this post by Duaine Hechler
  *

    *11/16/11: Did a Google search on the keywords 'Microsoft' and 'lawsuit' or 'lawsuits' and got 22,850,000 hits. WOW!
    (12/18/09: was 7,420,000 hits) (06/02/09: was 2,767,000 hits)*


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Duaine Hechler
Piano, Player Piano, Pump Organ
Tuning, Servicing&  Rebuilding
Reed Organ Society Member
Florissant, MO 63034
(314) 838-5587
[hidden email]
www.hechlerpianoandorgan.com
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Re: 12.1...., nope!

Anton Aylward-2
In reply to this post by Linux Tyro-2
Linux Tyro said the following on 11/16/2011 04:51 PM:
>> > Many people here have a different risk risk tolerance from you, Tyro.
>> > You were concerned about the risk of getting things wrong when you were
>> > partitioning your disk for Suse; you've displayed concern about which
>> > distribution of Linux to use.
> Yeah.
>
>> > This is addressing the risk/benefit of dealing with alternatives.
> Oh I see. It means that entire mailing lists run on risk/benefit of dealing...

No.
Read what I said.

The *individuals* on this list have a different risk tolerance from you.
And from each other.
We work and live in different contexts.

Example: You were concerned about getting things wrong in partitioning
your disk for Linux.  For you there was a risk involved that your
decision might be wrong.  That was clear from the questions you were asking.

For me there is no risk; I use LVM.  If I make one partition to large
and another too small I can change them on the running system without a
reboot and without mounting.  For me there is no risk that my decision
might be wrong.   LVM also simplifies backup; I can snapshot a live
partition and copy the partition to a CD or DVD, all without 'freezing'
or going to single user mode.  There goes another risk.

Its about individuals and how they each perceive and ameliorate risk.

Lists don't run on risk/benefit.  They might run _for_ the benefit, but
its still "of individuals".

So if someone tells you that they will or won't move to 12.1 soon or
later, that's for their reasons and how they perceive the risks and
benefits of 12.1.  You should think for yourself, and if they don't give
reasons, ask for the reasons.  They may or may not apply to your context
and circumstances.


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