11.2 a big step backwards?

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11.2 a big step backwards?

Charles Obler
I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality.  It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users.  Tell me I'm wrong!

Most of my complaints pertain to KDE 4.  Something has gone TERRIBLY wrong with KDE.  Here are some of the things that I can do in 10.2 that I can no longer do in 11.2:

Shortcut keys:
* In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop.  Function not available in 11.2!
* In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window: Doesn't work in 11.2.
* In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in KConsole.  Function not available in 11.2!
* In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between desktops.  Function not available in 11.2.

Desktop:
* In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align all desktop icons.  Function not available in 11.2!
* In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control the font and color.  In 11.2, the icons are big and cumbersome.
* in 10.2, my screensavers work.  In 11.2, I get segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver panel.

USB Memory:
* In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by going to the /media directory.  In 11.2, my USB memory is inaccessible, except through Dolphin.  Using Dolphin to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as long as using mc.

KDE Version:
* When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display its version.  In fact, it doesn't even display KDE!  Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or something?!

Internet:
* Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in 11.2!

In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows 7.  I found this hard to believe -- but now that I've "upgraded", I can see why some people might do this.  Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real thing?

I still have an open mind.  I just can't understand why Linux is REMOVING functionality.  Functionality is the Linux STRENGTH!  It's one of the main reasons for USING Linux!  For Linux to delete functionality seems self-destructive.  

Next, I suppose Linux will do away with the command-line option.  After all, only "geeks" use it!  This regression really makes me sick.  What are they thinking, over at KDE?!




     
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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Vadym Krevs
On 19 February 2010 11:11, Charles Obler <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality.  It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users.  Tell me I'm wrong!
>
> Most of my complaints pertain to KDE 4.  Something has gone TERRIBLY wrong with KDE.  Here are some of the things that I can do in 10.2 that I can no longer do in 11.2:
>
> Shortcut keys:
> * In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop.  Function not available in 11.2!
> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window: Doesn't work in 11.2.
> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in KConsole.  Function not available in 11.2!
> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between desktops.  Function not available in 11.2.
>
> Desktop:
> * In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align all desktop icons.  Function not available in 11.2!
> * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control the font and color.  In 11.2, the icons are big and cumbersome.
> * in 10.2, my screensavers work.  In 11.2, I get segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver panel.
>
> USB Memory:
> * In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by going to the /media directory.  In 11.2, my USB memory is inaccessible, except through Dolphin.  Using Dolphin to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as long as using mc.
>
> KDE Version:
> * When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display its version.  In fact, it doesn't even display KDE!  Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or something?!
>
> Internet:
> * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in 11.2!
>
> In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows 7.  I found this hard to believe -- but now that I've "upgraded", I can see why some people might do this.  Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real thing?
>
> I still have an open mind.  I just can't understand why Linux is REMOVING functionality.  Functionality is the Linux STRENGTH!  It's one of the main reasons for USING Linux!  For Linux to delete functionality seems self-destructive.
>
> Next, I suppose Linux will do away with the command-line option.  After all, only "geeks" use it!  This regression really makes me sick.  What are they thinking, over at KDE?!
>

I'd still give KDE 4 a chance - you'll grow into it :-) Although I can
see how different it may seem after KDE 3.5 in 10.2.

I've got 2 openSUSE 11.2 installations, and USB sticks get
automatically mounted under /media, so mc has no problems copying
them. Since Dolphin can access your USB media, I'd raise a issue in
Novell bugzilla for USB media not being mounted in /media.

As to shortcuts, you could  explore the Keyboard module in System
Settings - it allows you to set up short cuts for pretty much
anything. Also, see comment #3 in
http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167881.

Regards,
Vadym
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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Charles Obler
In reply to this post by Charles Obler
Thank you for replying, Vincenzo --

I hope you are right.  I ask to be proven wrong.  

I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed.  I did finally figure out how to put the taskbar panel on the right edge of the screen.  It's not a control panel option: Instead, I have to click on the taskbar directly.  

If I am missing something, please tell me.  I've been a big fan of Linux for the last ten years.  This is the first time that a new version has left me seriously disappointed.  

--- On Fri, 2/19/10, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Subject: R: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
> To: "Charles Obler" <[hidden email]>
> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:22 AM
> Hi,
> All the functionality that you have "missed" are simply
> configurable trough the kde control panel.
> And you can't say  That opensuse is worst than
> previouses versions, zypper is faster than ever, the boot
> time I think is one of fasters by the others distributions,
> you are saying only empty words.
> Remember that there is a community that can help you in a
> lot of ways, just moderate the terms.
>
> Vincenzo
> Vincenzo
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Obler <[hidden email]>
> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:11:31
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
>
> I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent
> loss of functionality.  It feels like Linux is being
> dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows
> users.  Tell me I'm wrong!
>
> Most of my complaints pertain to KDE 4.  Something has
> gone TERRIBLY wrong with KDE.  Here are some of the
> things that I can do in 10.2 that I can no longer do in
> 11.2:
>
> Shortcut keys:
> * In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop. 
> Function not available in 11.2!
> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window:
> Doesn't work in 11.2.
> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in
> KConsole.  Function not available in 11.2!
> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between
> desktops.  Function not available in 11.2.
>
> Desktop:
> * In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align
> all desktop icons.  Function not available in 11.2!
> * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control
> the font and color.  In 11.2, the icons are big and
> cumbersome.
> * in 10.2, my screensavers work.  In 11.2, I get
> segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver
> panel.
>
> USB Memory:
> * In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by
> going to the /media directory.  In 11.2, my USB memory
> is inaccessible, except through Dolphin.  Using Dolphin
> to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as
> long as using mc.
>
> KDE Version:
> * When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display
> its version.  In fact, it doesn't even display
> KDE!  Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or
> something?!
>
> Internet:
> * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet
> (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in
> 11.2!
>
> In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows
> 7.  I found this hard to believe -- but now that I've
> "upgraded", I can see why some people might do this. 
> Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real
> thing?
>
> I still have an open mind.  I just can't understand
> why Linux is REMOVING functionality.  Functionality is
> the Linux STRENGTH!  It's one of the main reasons for
> USING Linux!  For Linux to delete functionality seems
> self-destructive. 
>
> Next, I suppose Linux will do away with the command-line
> option.  After all, only "geeks" use it!  This
> regression really makes me sick.  What are they
> thinking, over at KDE?!
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>



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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

C-29
In reply to this post by Charles Obler
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:11, Charles Obler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality.

First question.. have you bumped up to KDE4.4?  If not, then do that
first.  If you're using 4.3.1, then you will definitely have issues.


> * In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop.  Function not available in 11.2!

Added to KDE4.4.  See: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=182729


> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window: Doesn't work in 11.2.

It's not set by default.  you can define it on the KWin component in
Configure Desktop > Keyboard > Global Keyboard Shortcuts > KWin


> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in KConsole.  Function not available in 11.2!

Ctrl+M is what you want.. I think - found it in the Keyboard shortcuts.


> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between desktops.  Function not available in 11.2.

It's been Ctrl+F1, Ctrl+F2 etc for a long time (in KDE3 as well), and
that's how it's defined in KDE4 as well.. you can add Ctrl+/ and \ in
the keyboard settings if you like it that way.


> Desktop:
> * In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align all desktop icons.  Function not available in 11.2!

Right click > Icons > Sort icons.


> * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control the font and color.  In 11.2, the icons are big and cumbersome.

So change them.  it's configurable.  You can scale the size up and
down on all icons using a handy slider in the config... be it in
Dolphin or on the desktop widgets


> * in 10.2, my screensavers work.  In 11.2, I get segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver panel.

They work in KDE4 as well... if you're getting segfaults, it's not
KDE4 broken by design, it's something wonky in your config or install.


> USB Memory:
> * In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by going to the /media directory.  In 11.2, my USB memory is inaccessible, except through Dolphin.  Using Dolphin to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as long as using mc.

I leave this one up to the Midnight Commander fans to answer.  I don't
use mc at all.


> KDE Version:
> * When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display its version.  In fact, it doesn't even display KDE!  Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or something?!

?? You're annoyed by what exactly here?  That there is no KDE version
in the title bar?


> Internet:
> * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in 11.2!

Is that a fault of openSUSE11.2? or the manufacturer not writing
drivers?  What's your point?  Some hardware doesn't work in Linux..
this isn't something new.... buy hardware that's compatible... contact
the vendor...


> In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows 7.  I found this hard to believe -- but now that I've "upgraded", I can see why some people might do this.  Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real thing?

People are free to choose the OS that best suits them and their needs.
 You can be free to use Linux, or use Win7 (and have to prove to
Microsoft you have a legit version every 90 days and be at their whim
of switching you off at any point).  No one claims Linux is the
perfect solution for everything.


> I still have an open mind.  I just can't understand why Linux is REMOVING functionality.  Functionality is the Linux STRENGTH!  It's one of the main reasons for USING Linux!  For Linux to delete functionality seems self-destructive.

We've been through this over and over and over and over on the mailing
list.  KDE4 is still a work in progress.  It's improving by huge
amounts due to the efforts of long suffering and under appreciated
list members like Dotan who put up with loads of abuse to collect the
bug reports and submit them.  The bugs he's reported are being fixed
and closed and a very regular basis.

If you don't like KDE4, use one of the other window managers, or
submit bug reports to the KDE developers on the bits you like and miss
(they are VERY open to feature requests if you ask politely and
provide enough information about what you want or moss from KDE3)...
for example if you miss Ctrl+Alt+A, and it's actually not implemented,
then ask nicely for it.  I'd never miss it since I never use it... and
if the developer of that part also never uses it... then it may not be
included.

Snipped the rest of the rant.

C.
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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

C-29
In reply to this post by Charles Obler
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:40, Charles Obler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed.

Don't make the mistake a few others here have made.  KDE4 is *NOT*
KDE3.5 plus bug fixes.  It is conceptually different than KDE3.  Good
or bad, that's what it is.  it works differently, it uses
newer/different desktop management tools and concepts.  If you insist
on making KDE4 look and behave click/keypress identical to KDE3.5,
you're setting yourself up for major pain and trouble.

Learn the KDE4 "way" of doing things (it won't take much time... most
of it (but not all just yet) is pretty intuitive)... sometimes the
same functionality you are used to from KDE3 is there, and it works
the same, sometimes it's there, but in a different place.  Where it's
missing, we open bug reports (example., showing image MetaData)....
and they do actually get worked on and fixed :-)

As long as you approach it this way, you will get used to it pretty
quick, and start to see that the KDE guys are actually making KDE a
lot better... and going back to KDE3 will feel like a big step back.
It' snot 100% there yet, but it's getting really close.

If you try to make KDE4 into KDE3, it won't work... you'll have
problems at every turn...

C.
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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by Charles Obler
On 19/02/10 22:11, Charles Obler wrote:
> I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality.  It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users.  Tell me I'm wrong!
>  

LOL!

Of course you are shocked.

When you post your "SHOCKED" message from something else other than a
"YahooMailClassic" mailer then people here may consider properly
responding to you.

Nevertheless, the short answer to your above (assumed to be the first,
with more to come) provocation, "Tell me I'm wrong!" is:

*You are wrong*.


Now what, sweetheart?

(More stomping of feet, a tantrum or two or three? What do you have
pre-planned, pray tell?)

BC

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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Charles Obler
In reply to this post by Vadym Krevs
Thanks for the sympathy and the suggestion, Vadym.  I'll try the USB stick again tomorrow.  Could this be related to a "Policy Kit" setting?

Maybe there are ways to work around the limitations of KDE 4.  Maybe there are ways to circumvent the Personal Settings panel and enter the configuration directly into etc or opt files.  It just seems incredible to me that KDE would take something that is working beautifully -- 3.5 -- and break it.  What's the point?

I'm not a big mouse person, but now KDE 4 will force me to use the mouse a lot more.  Some people may think that's progress; I think it's repetitive stress injury!

--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Vadym Krevs <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Vadym Krevs <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
> I'd still give KDE 4 a chance - you'll grow into it :-)
> Although I can
> see how different it may seem after KDE 3.5 in 10.2.
>
> I've got 2 openSUSE 11.2 installations, and USB sticks get
> automatically mounted under /media, so mc has no problems
> copying
> them. Since Dolphin can access your USB media, I'd raise a
> issue in
> Novell bugzilla for USB media not being mounted in /media.
>
> As to shortcuts, you could  explore the Keyboard
> module in System
> Settings - it allows you to set up short cuts for pretty
> much
> anything. Also, see comment #3 in
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=167881.
>
> Regards,
> Vadym
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>



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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Basil Chupin-2
In reply to this post by Charles Obler
On 19/02/10 22:40, Charles Obler wrote:

> Thank you for replying, Vincenzo --
>
> I hope you are right.  I ask to be proven wrong.  
>
> I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed.  I did finally figure out how to put the taskbar panel on the right edge of the screen.  It's not a control panel option: Instead, I have to click on the taskbar directly.  
>
> If I am missing something, please tell me.  I've been a big fan of Linux for the last ten years.  This is the first time that a new version has left me seriously disappointed.  
>
> --- On Fri, 2/19/10, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: R: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
>> To: "Charles Obler" <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:22 AM
>> Hi,
>> All the functionality that you have "missed" are simply
>> configurable trough the kde control panel.
>> And you can't say  That opensuse is worst than
>> previouses versions, zypper is faster than ever, the boot
>> time I think is one of fasters by the others distributions,
>> you are saying only empty words.
>> Remember that there is a community that can help you in a
>> lot of ways, just moderate the terms.
>>
>> Vincenzo
>> Vincenzo
>> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>>    

Oh dear, oh dear :-( .

This is something about which I posted, in this forum, a message as a
response to Rajko only a few days ago.

Replying to a PRIVATE message and quoting it in a PUBLIC forum is NOT
what is considered to be "netiquette". It is a *NO-NO*. *Period*. Not
negotiable.

And so what is it that our 'resident mail police' are going to do about
it? One can only speculate....

BC


-----Original Message-----

>> From: Charles Obler <[hidden email]>
>> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 03:11:31
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
>>
>> I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent
>> loss of functionality.  It feels like Linux is being
>> dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows
>> users.  Tell me I'm wrong!
>>
>> Most of my complaints pertain to KDE 4.  Something has
>> gone TERRIBLY wrong with KDE.  Here are some of the
>> things that I can do in 10.2 that I can no longer do in
>> 11.2:
>>
>> Shortcut keys:
>> * In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop.
>> Function not available in 11.2!
>> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window:
>> Doesn't work in 11.2.
>> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in
>> KConsole.  Function not available in 11.2!
>> * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and Ctrl-\ to switch between
>> desktops.  Function not available in 11.2.
>>
>> Desktop:
>> * In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align
>> all desktop icons.  Function not available in 11.2!
>> * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the ability to control
>> the font and color.  In 11.2, the icons are big and
>> cumbersome.
>> * in 10.2, my screensavers work.  In 11.2, I get
>> segment faults whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver
>> panel.
>>
>> USB Memory:
>> * In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by
>> going to the /media directory.  In 11.2, my USB memory
>> is inaccessible, except through Dolphin.  Using Dolphin
>> to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as
>> long as using mc.
>>
>> KDE Version:
>> * When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display
>> its version.  In fact, it doesn't even display
>> KDE!  Are the KDE 4 developers trying to hide, or
>> something?!
>>
>> Internet:
>> * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet
>> (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in
>> 11.2!
>>
>> In forums, I read of people switching from Linux to Windows
>> 7.  I found this hard to believe -- but now that I've
>> "upgraded", I can see why some people might do this.
>> Why have imitation Windows, when we can have the real
>> thing?
>>
>> I still have an open mind.  I just can't understand
>> why Linux is REMOVING functionality.  Functionality is
>> the Linux STRENGTH!  It's one of the main reasons for
>> USING Linux!  For Linux to delete functionality seems
>> self-destructive.  
>>
>> Next, I suppose Linux will do away with the command-line
>> option.  After all, only "geeks" use it!  This
>> regression really makes me sick.  What are they
>> thinking, over at KDE?!
>>    

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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

David Bolt-5
In reply to this post by C-29
On Friday 19 February 2010 11:41:50 C wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:11, Charles Obler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality.

> > Internet:
> > * Worst of all, I find that my new nVidia MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2), on the market since 2006, is still not working in 11.2!
>
> Is that a fault of openSUSE11.2? or the manufacturer not writing
> drivers?

It's neither. The driver is a part of the kernel and has been for a
while.

> What's your point?  Some hardware doesn't work in Linux..
> this isn't something new.... buy hardware that's compatible... contact
> the vendor...

In this case, I'm not sure why the OP is having an issue with the MCP61
ethernet controller. I don't know exactly when support was added to the
kernel but it was there in openSUSE 11.1, and definitely works in 11.2:

davjam@moray:~/sync>  sudo /usr/sbin/hwinfo --netcard
root's password:
17: PCI 07.0: 0200 Ethernet controller
  [Created at pci.318]
  UDI: /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/pci_10de_3ef
  Unique ID: rBUF.KlYnqA_D_C5
  SysFS ID: /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:07.0
  SysFS BusID: 0000:00:07.0
  Hardware Class: network
  Model: "nVidia MCP61 Ethernet"
  Vendor: pci 0x10de "nVidia Corporation"
  Device: pci 0x03ef "MCP61 Ethernet"
  SubVendor: pci 0x1565 "Biostar Microtech Int'l Corp"
  SubDevice: pci 0x2505
  Revision: 0xa2
  Driver: "forcedeth"
  Driver Modules: "forcedeth"
  Device File: eth0
  Memory Range: 0xfe02d000-0xfe02dfff (rw,non-prefetchable)
  I/O Ports: 0xec00-0xec07 (rw)
  IRQ: 27 (257507043 events)
  HW Address: 00:e0:4d:9e:6f:19
  Link detected: yes
  Module Alias: "pci:v000010DEd000003EFsv00001565sd00002505bc06sc80i00"
  Driver Info #0:
    Driver Status: forcedeth is active
    Driver Activation Cmd: "modprobe forcedeth"
  Config Status: cfg=no, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown
davjam@moray:~/sync>  sudo /sbin/ifconfig eth0
eth0      Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 00:E0:4D:9E:6F:19
          inet addr:192.168.0.131  Bcast:192.168.0.255  Mask:255.255.255.0
          inet6 addr: fe80::2e0:4dff:fe9e:6f19/64 Scope:Link
          UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST  MTU:1500  Metric:1
          RX packets:145993332 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0
          TX packets:116356082 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0
          collisions:0 txqueuelen:1000
          RX bytes:150353357732 (143388.1 Mb)  TX bytes:57509064165 (54844.9 Mb)
          Interrupt:27 Base address:0x6000

davjam@moray:~/sync>  sudo /sbin/lspci | grep "Ethernet"
00:07.0 Bridge: nVidia Corporation MCP61 Ethernet (rev a2)


Regards,
        David Bolt

--
Team Acorn: www.distributed.net OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s
openSUSE 11.0 32b |                   |                   | openSUSE 11.3M1 32b
openSUSE 11.0 64b | openSUSE 11.1 64b | openSUSE 11.2 64b |
TOS 4.02          | openSUSE 11.1 PPC | RISC OS 4.02      | RISC OS 3.11

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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

James Knott
In reply to this post by Charles Obler
Charles Obler wrote:
> I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality.  It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users.  Tell me I'm wrong!
>
>    
After a bit of experience with 11.1, I reverted to 11.0.  From my point
of view, KDE 4 is a disaster.  I also have no use for a dumbed down
desktop.  If I wanted one, I could always go to Windows.  Perhaps KDE 4
should be called "Linux Vista".


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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Regis Matejick


On Fri, 2010-02-19 at 11:44 -0500, James Knott wrote:
> Charles Obler wrote:
> > I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the apparent loss of functionality.  It feels like Linux is being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows users.  Tell me I'm wrong!
> >
> >    
> After a bit of experience with 11.1, I reverted to 11.0.  From my point
> of view, KDE 4 is a disaster.  I also have no use for a dumbed down
> desktop.  If I wanted one, I could always go to Windows.  Perhaps KDE 4
> should be called "Linux Vista".
>

Seems like this thread re-creates itself every month or two, maybe there
should be a separate "I hate kde4" mailing list . . .

Curious though, what loss of functionality ?

I too, recently installed 11.2 and I really like it.  KDE 4 uses a bit
more resources than I'd like, but then I thought - geez, I've got a
tri-core 64bit processor with 8 gigs of ram.  Even with KDE4, firefox,
Evolution, and a host of other widgets running - the processor load is
almost nothing and the consumed ram is less than a gig.

Meanwhile, it looks great.  Dolphin even seems to be stable (had real
dolphin problems in 11.0 - but maybe that was just me).  Even better,
KDE4.4 from all reports seems like its going to be even more stable and
more capable.

Now, when folks stop over my office, they often express envy at the way
I spin through multiple desktops, they are startled by the waving
translucent windows, and often ask "how much it costs" to get a computer
like that.

Not bad for an OS that is 100% free, and for which most of us, the only
contribution is to file a bug report - or bitch about something on a
mailing list.

let the flames begin,

regis

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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Graham Anderson
In reply to this post by Charles Obler
I actually think 11.2 is the strongest openSUSE release yet.

On Friday 19 February 2010 12:11:31 Charles Obler wrote:
>* In 10.2, I use Ctrl-Alt-D to show the desktop.  Function not available in
>11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-M to maximize the window: Doesn't work
>in 11.2. * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-Alt-A to access the menu bar in
>KConsole.  Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I can use Ctrl-/ and
>Ctrl-\ to switch between desktops.  Function not available in 11.2.

You can configure these under KDE System Settings > Keyboard & Mouse > Global
Keyboard Shortcuts > toggle "KDE Component" drop down list to "KWin" add the
shortcuts you'd like.

You may wish to map the Ctrl-Alt-D shortcut to the "Show Plasma Desktop"
option instead of "Show Desktop", this will present the folder view container
that has your icons to the front of the desktop without minimizing your open
apps. I find this workflow to be a very big usability improvement. Your
mileage may vary.

>Desktop:
>* In 10.2, I can use a single command to adjust and align all desktop icons.
> Function not available in 11.2! * In 10.2, I have compact icons and the
>ability to control the font and color.  In 11.2, the icons are big and
>cumbersome. * in 10.2, my screensavers work.  In 11.2, I get segment faults
>whenever I try to open the KDE screensaver panel.

You can configure all of these options. The widget that displays the icons is
called a "Folder View" widget. Either right click on the folder view widget
and choose "Folder View Settings" or unlock the desktop widgets and move the
mouse over the folder view widget and click the spanner/settings icon on the
popout bar. Then click the "Display" config option, icon size, text colour and
shadow, grid layout... it's all there.

I personally don't display desktop icons at all anymore since moving to KDE4.
I have two folder view widgets, one displays my home folder, the other
displays a collection of frequently used file and network locations. When I
have all my desktops chock full of applications I don't want to minimise
anything so I use the "Show Plasma Dashboard" mapped to a keyboard shortcut.

>USB Memory:
>* In 10.2, I can access my USB memory with mc, simply by going to the /media
>directory.  In 11.2, my USB memory is inaccessible, except through Dolphin.
> Using Dolphin to copy from one directory to another takes me five times as
>long as using mc.

Sorry can't help you here :(

>KDE Version:
>* When I open the Personal Settings, KDE doesn't display its version.  In
>fact, it doesn't even display KDE!  Are the KDE 4 developers trying to
>hide, or something?!

In KDE Settings, click the help icon on the toolbar and select "About KDE" or
from any KDE help menu ;)

>I still have an open mind.  I just can't understand why Linux is REMOVING
>functionality.  Functionality is the Linux STRENGTH!  It's one of the main
>reasons for USING Linux!  For Linux to delete functionality seems
>self-destructive.

I understand your frustrations, but as others have said, you cannot think of
KDE4 as KDE3 + New things. Sure, the early versions of KDE4 were lacking in
functionality, but early versions of KDE3 could be pretty horrible to use too.
Most of the functionality that people complain is missing from KDE4 has in
fact *in* KDE4 for a long time, but they just didn't take the time to find it
or ask where it is.

In any case, KDE4 has been a pleasure to use since at least 4.2.x and I can
honestly say I find it a step backwards and incredibly frustrating when having
to use KDE3 now. Dolphin is a great file manager (the kio slaves work in it
too) and since I never used Konq much for browsing I honestly cannot remember
the last time I used Konqueror. Or just use midnight commander....

There are lots of happy KDE4 users like myself who I'm sure will not mind
taking time to answer questions and help you tweak your work environment to
something that suits.

Cheers the noo,
Graham

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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Graham Anderson
In reply to this post by Regis Matejick
On Friday 19 February 2010 18:46:59 Regis Matejcik wrote:
>Seems like this thread re-creates itself every month or two, maybe there
>should be a separate "I hate kde4" mailing list . . .

I've not read any _valid_ criticisms of KDE4 for a long, long time. I'm going
to start a "Why KDE3 sucks" thread soon.

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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Per Inge Oestmoen
Graham Anderson wrote:

> I've not read any _valid_ criticisms of KDE4 for a long, long time. I'm going
> to start a "Why KDE3 sucks" thread soon.

I have only ONE criticism of KDE4, and I can repeat it here for new
readers:

----
Dolphin and Konqueror in KDE 4.0x both fail to show meta data when
right-clicking on a document or a picture.

In KDE 3.5, the meta data were shown, like this:

http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data1.jpg

http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data2.jpg

http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data3.jpg

http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data4.jpg

As you can see for yourself, the display of meta data is a very valuable
function.

A number of people pointed to the KDE 4 versions missing this
functionality, and there should have been ample time to bring it back by
now. It is highly desirable to have Dolphin and Konqueror display it, so
we do not have to start another program to view this information. So,
when will this functionality be brought back, or has it already happened?
----

- In every other respect, I have found KDE4 to be as good - and i most
cases better - in comparison to KDE3.

Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway

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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

C-29
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 19:21, Per Inge Oestmoen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have only ONE criticism of KDE4, and I can repeat it here for new readers:
>
> ----
> Dolphin and Konqueror in KDE 4.0x both fail to show meta data when
> right-clicking on a document or a picture.
>
> In KDE 3.5, the meta data were shown, like this:
>
> http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data1.jpg
>
> http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data2.jpg
>
> http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data3.jpg
>
> http://www.coldsiberia.net/phototest/konqueror_meta_data4.jpg
>
> As you can see for yourself, the display of meta data is a very valuable
> function.
>
> A number of people pointed to the KDE 4 versions missing this functionality,
> and there should have been ample time to bring it back by now. It is highly
> desirable to have Dolphin and Konqueror display it, so we do not have to
> start another program to view this information. So, when will this
> functionality be brought back, or has it already happened?
> ----


You didn't link the bug report on this problem to show that something
is being done to fix it.  It's planned to be fixed in KDE4.5.

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=190588

C.
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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Tony Alfrey
In reply to this post by Graham Anderson
Graham Anderson wrote:
> On Friday 19 February 2010 18:46:59 Regis Matejcik wrote:
>> Seems like this thread re-creates itself every month or two, maybe there
>> should be a separate "I hate kde4" mailing list . . .
>
> I've not read any _valid_ criticisms of KDE4 for a long, long time. I'm going
> to start a "Why KDE3 sucks" thread soon.
>

You could do that, but you might not find any participants.  I'm simply
puzzled that so many could have complaints about kde4.x, yet many
continue to say "don't use it", "it's OK now", "use another desktop
environment", etc.  Those complaining are not your average computer
bozo; these are seriously computer literate users (by default, a linux
user is more competent than the average) and they are continuing to say
there are problems w/ the environment and are giving direct feedback
about what they'd like to see.  Were I receiving this sort of feedback
from my customers, you can bet I'd be on the stick so fast trying to
accommodate them.


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Tony Alfrey
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"I'd Rather Be Sailing"
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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Charles Obler
In reply to this post by C-29
I'll keep your advice about a new KDE concept in mind.  However, I think we have a right to expect a more gradual transition to this new concept, with time for feedback, time to evaluate the new concept and correct flaws.  It should be possible to adopt elements of the new concept one by one, while retaining and deprecating the old concept.  This is especially true when the old concept is working just fine!  Spring the new concept on us all at once, while pulling the old concept out from under our feet is not the Linux style -- is it?

And there's no excuse for eliminating functionality!  When developers start doing that, I suspect them of playing Big Brother -- e.g., deciding in our behalf that using the mouse is more "progressive" than using the keyboard, or deciding in our behalf that we really don't need the wonderful software we have been using on a daily basis for years, simply because the software is "not GUI enough"!  If the new concepts are good, there is no need to force-feed them to us.  Taking away our options is what the "communists" at Microsoft do!  

--- On Fri, 2/19/10, C <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: C <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:50 AM
> On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:40,
> Charles Obler <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I've spent hours exploring the KDE control panel, but
> I haven't found the basic 10.2 features I listed.
>
> Don't make the mistake a few others here have made. 
> KDE4 is *NOT*
> KDE3.5 plus bug fixes.  It is conceptually different
> than KDE3.  Good
> or bad, that's what it is.  it works differently, it
> uses
> newer/different desktop management tools and
> concepts.  If you insist
> on making KDE4 look and behave click/keypress identical to
> KDE3.5,
> you're setting yourself up for major pain and trouble.
>
> Learn the KDE4 "way" of doing things (it won't take much
> time... most
> of it (but not all just yet) is pretty intuitive)...
> sometimes the
> same functionality you are used to from KDE3 is there, and
> it works
> the same, sometimes it's there, but in a different
> place.  Where it's
> missing, we open bug reports (example., showing image
> MetaData)....
> and they do actually get worked on and fixed :-)
>
> As long as you approach it this way, you will get used to
> it pretty
> quick, and start to see that the KDE guys are actually
> making KDE a
> lot better... and going back to KDE3 will feel like a big
> step back.
> It' snot 100% there yet, but it's getting really close.
>
> If you try to make KDE4 into KDE3, it won't work... you'll
> have
> problems at every turn...
>
> C.
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>



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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

gregfreemyer
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 2:39 PM, Charles Obler <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'll keep your advice about a new KDE concept in mind.  However, I think we have a right to expect a more gradual transition to this new concept, with time for feedback, time to evaluate the new concept and correct flaws.  It should be possible to adopt elements of the new concept one by one, while retaining and deprecating the old concept.  This is especially true when the old concept is working just fine!  Spring the new concept on us all at once, while pulling the old concept out from under our feet is not the Linux style -- is it?
>

Charles,

I'm not very KDE knowledgeable, but the last thing I would complain
about is that they are moving too fast!!

After all 11.0 was the first KDE 4 preview release and its just a few
months from end-of-life.  Would you rather it took 10 years to
transition from KDE3 to KDE4.

11.3 will likely be the first OS release that doesn't have KDE3.5
support.  That's over 2 years of transition time.  I think that is
long enough.

Greg
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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

C-29
In reply to this post by Tony Alfrey
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 20:10, Tony Alfrey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> competent than the average) and they are continuing to say there are
> problems w/ the environment and are giving direct feedback about what they'd
> like to see.  Were I receiving this sort of feedback from my customers, you
> can bet I'd be on the stick so fast trying to accommodate them.

They aren't giving feedback.  How many people ranting and raving here
on the mailing list actually comment on bug reports on kde.org where
the feedback counts?  Almost none.  Instead they heap abuse on the
people who try to help... look at all the flak and crap that Dotan has
dealt with...  somehow he hasn't given in.

C.
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Re: 11.2 a big step backwards?

Charles Obler
In reply to this post by Basil Chupin-2
My original message may have been an over-reaction based on my concern for the future of Linux.  When I use and promote Linux, I need to feel that things are getting better, not worse.  The advice and encouragement that others here have generously offered me helps me to keep an open mind regarding 11.2.

I posted my original message as a question: I want to hear what others think about 11.2.  I also wanted to make my own issues and initial impressions public.  Usually my impressions are positive -- I love the moving globe wallpaper, for example!  If my impressions this time are mainly negative, it's because KDE 3.5 is SO good and solid, that I hate to be forced to part with it.

Linux does not have to fear questions and honest criticism.  Addressing user concerns makes the system stronger, not weaker.

Thanks for your response.

--- On Fri, 2/19/10, Basil Chupin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Basil Chupin <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [opensuse] 11.2 a big step backwards?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Friday, February 19, 2010, 6:55 AM
> On 19/02/10 22:11, Charles Obler
> wrote:
> > I've just installed 11.2, and I'm SHOCKED by the
> apparent loss of functionality.  It feels like Linux is
> being dumbed-down to meet the meager expectations of Windows
> users.  Tell me I'm wrong!
> >   
>
> LOL!
>
> Of course you are shocked.
>
> When you post your "SHOCKED" message from something else
> other than a
> "YahooMailClassic" mailer then people here may consider
> properly
> responding to you.
>
> Nevertheless, the short answer to your above (assumed to be
> the first,
> with more to come) provocation, "Tell me I'm wrong!" is:
>
> *You are wrong*.
>
>
> Now what, sweetheart?
>
> (More stomping of feet, a tantrum or two or three? What do
> you have
> pre-planned, pray tell?)
>
> BC
>
> --
>
> A hole has been found in the nudist camp wall. Police are
> looking into it.
>
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